Continued:
There are approximately 130 of them that do not deal with salvation
Setst: So you believe the NT teaches that we must obey at least 270 commands for our salvation? Most of the New Testament is not a book of commands but rather instruction, doctrine, and warning for those already saved to remind them of their commitment to God by faith, and to help them stay on the right path in their walk with God, and so they would not be mislead. The doctrine that Paul taught regarding faith and our saving relationship with Jesus is Paul’s attempt to explain in human terms what a true saving faith is, not that they are commands.
Romans 6:19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations.
The Gospel is so simple that a child can understand it and be saved. However, Paul goes into great detail isolating and breaking into parts and explaining every aspect of salvation through a repentant faith in Jesus by which we receive the Spirit to give us power over sin’s hold, and to live out a life of Love as Jesus did. Paul explains all this in terms a human can understand with the natural mind so that we will not be deceived into a counterfeit Gospel in any way or my any use of trickery.
The rest of the NT deals with rules of conduct in Church and within government and society. Other issues are discussed as well. Those rules of conduct are not salvation Passages, but are instead commands and instruction to do after a person is saved.
If a person truly believes and is saved, he will become a slave to righteousness, because he follows Jesus as his Lord.
Romans 6. And the Spirit empowers this person’s faith to be victorious over slavery to sin, and to live out a life of love and righteousness as that believer continues in his walk.
The Apostles letters to the Churches, in regards to the Gospel and salvation, are basically repeating the same thing, but saying it in many ways using illustrations. We are never saved by obeying anything other than what the New Covenant Gospel commands what we must do to obtain the salvation that God promises - which is to repent and believe in Jesus, and by that faith living out a life of love as the Spirit empowers our faith commitment. This I have kept repeating to you, and quoted Passages for you.
I believe we could agree on this, but you want to make it appear that salvation is attained and kept by obeying over 270 commands. And so we continue a debate on another issue that is not really an issue.
So I state again the Gospel which saves us...
After being offered the gift of salvation through the Gospel message, a person may repent and believe in Jesus – which is to deny self and take up his cross and follow Jesus into a life of love for God and others. If my faith is genuine in this regard, then I am saved. That is it.
To further detail in human terms what happens on a Spiritual level, I write as follows:
A saving faith like this is demonstrated by our deeds, because our purpose in life has changed from being selfish to that of helping other and dong no harm. As a New Creature in Christ, I am now living for God by faith, and will fulfill the whole law as the Spirit I receive by faith empowers my faith commitment to live out a life of Love – which fulfills the Moral Law… For Love does no harm, therefore Love is the fulfillment of the Law.
What I explained is the Gospel message that Paul illustrated in many ways in his letters. These are the commands, instruction, and terms of God to be saved in the New Covenant that are repeated in many ways throughout all the books of the New Testament. I don’t believe we disagree, but you will make it appear as if we disagree anyway and want to make it appear as if we must obey over 270 commands for salvation.
I repeat, that what I explained to you is what every Book in the NT keeps repeating regarding our salvation.
When a person commits to this Covenant with God as taught in the Gospel, that person is sanctified by faith in Jesus and declared righteous by God – dead to self and alive in Christ. This disciple of Christ, since he is now following Christ, will not desire to do harm, but will desire to fulfill what is good, and to obey all those over him, because he no longer lives for himself, to fulfill his lusts, but instead lives to follow Christ. He is a new creation.
Any disobedience to the laws and regulations of government, school, employer, church, etc is considered sin because it is harmful to the society they live in, so a truly saved believer in Christ will always seek to obey all these laws – not to be saved, but because he is now a follower of Jesus – a Christian living by the Spirit in him to empower his faith commitment. Faith onto salvation is always demonstrated by good deeds.
While the Spirit resides within a believer, God is not going to force us to do something that we do not want to do. While we are changed spiritually in our heart and have new desires, we need to adhere to the Spirit's written instructions (Which is the account of Christ and His followers of the New Testament).
As I told you before, Scripture says very specifically this:
"...Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." (
Galatians 5:16).
So we are told to walk in the Spirit.
It is not some automatic thing unless we decide to walk in the Spirit.
Setst RE: What you said above I agree with. What you wrote above was in response to the same thing I wrote down to you and that you replied to, and that I kept repeating to you throughout all my responses to you which you previously disagreed with. That is the Gospel you expressed, but do you believe it or are you again vacillating? I say this because you kept saying we are still under the Moral Law and 270 other commands, and that we must obey commands to produce Spiritual fruit.
Again, you want to make it appear as if we disagree, and want to debate on things that there should be no debate.
Setst wrote:
Regarding the other commands in the NT, those who are saved, and have the Spirit and the Spiritual Fruits that come from the Spirit, will conscientiously attempt to obey the laws of government and Church, but only because they are saved and possess Christ’s Spirit and the fruits the Spirit bears in us by faith.
No. In my experience, many are lazy to truly obey Jesus, and they do not care to to study or know about all of the New Testament commands let alone do they strive to obey them.
Setst RE: No??? Read the New Testament.
Your experience is correct though, and that is why only a remnant of those who claim to be Christian will actually be saved in the end as is quite evident by reading what Jesus instructs to the Churches in Revelations. But even though a remnant are saved, Revelation makes clear that the number of the saved is still in the hundreds of millions of believers.
But when you say “No” to what I wrote that you responded to, you are saying No to Jesus and His Apostles and to the Gospel that is repeated throughout the NT. The fact that many are lazy does make the Gospel invalid, for the power of God to be saved through the Gospel is only accessed and kept by faith – a repentant faith. Many will not really repent and believe. That is not the fault of the Gospel message.
I gave you a sampling of commands that do deal with salvation. If you disagree, then you need to go back to my list I gave you yesterday and address those verses in each command that talk about how they are for salvation.
Setst RE: I addressed every Passage you listed or quoted as commands. No Passage you listed or quoted shows that we are commanded to do anything more or less than what the Gospel states for salvation, and is the same thing that I have kept repeating to you in every response to you, including this post. All the other instruction in the NT is how to apply that new life within the government, the Church, your society, etc. We are saved by a repentant faith in Christ Jesus only. A true saving faith is always demonstrated by good deeds.
Acts 20:20-21 (WEB)
20 …I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.
Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
"All scripture
is given by inspiration of God, and
is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (
2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Setst RE: This quote is a perfect example showing we are not saved by following commands or doing good works. There is nothing in your quote that states we must obey hundreds of commands to be saved. The Gospel of our salvation is clear, and of which I repeated many times. Receiving the gracious gift of salvation from God is all personally dependent on each person’s faith according to the New Covenant between God and the believer.
- By faith I am justified: Romans 5:1
- By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified: Acts 26:16-18
- By faith God credits righteousness to me: Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
- By faith, not works, do I receive the free gift of salvation: Romans 9:30-33
- By faith, we follow, and live in obedience to, Lord Jesus to receive life: Romans 1:5, Romans 6:22, Romans 16:25-27, Hebrews 5:8-10, Matthew 28:19-20, John 14:21, 1 John 2:4
- By faith I access God's saving grace: Romans 5:1-2
- By faith I receive the power of God onto salvation: Romans 1:16-17
- By faith I receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
- By faith I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit: John 7:37-39
- By faith I am born of God: John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
- By faith to the end I receive the Crown of Life: Revelation 2:10
- By Faith, and the obedience to the Gospel that comes from a true faith, we are counted worthy for salvation: Matthew 10:48, Luke 21:34-36, Acts 26:19-20, Philippians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12, 2 Thessalonians 1:5, James 1:12-15, Revelation 3:2-5, Luke 9:23-25, John 10:27-28, Mark 8:34-36, Luke 14:27-35
- By faith I am kept by God's Power until the end 1 Peter 1:4-5
- By faith we overcome and are saved: 1 John 5:2-4, 1 Timothy 4:16, Revelation 2:4-7, Revelation 2:10-11, Revelation 3:2-5, Revelation 3:21
- The end result of my faith is my salvation 1 Peter 1:9
"
From faith to faith, the righteous will live by
faith."
Romans 1:16-17
If faith is genuine, then it will and must lead to obedience:
Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the
obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
Romans 6:16 (NIV)
16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death,
or to obedience,
which leads to righteousness?
Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in
accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that
all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen
The “By Faith” list, and the Passages I just listed, I actually formed years ago and have copied and used it on this board on various topics of discussion. So, I am saying nothing new to you that I have not kept repeating in my messages to you and to all others on this board.
You quote the following Passages:
John 16:13;
John 17:17,
Psalms 119:9;
Ephesians 5:25-27;
John 16:8-9
Setst RE: The Passages you quoted show how important the Word of God is, and how the Word of God works with the Spirit. I agree. Regarding the NT and the Gospel, the Word powerfully shows us God’s plan of salvation just as I have repeatedly wrote and quoted for you.
You are reading into those Passages all kinds of laws and commands that you think we must follow to be saved. Please don’t say you aren’t. I can quote many of your statements if you like, including in this very post of yours I am responding to. No one denies that, after one is saved, that we are no longer a slave to sin. Instead we follow Christ into a life of love, which includes following all the laws of government and church of one truly loves others. Even so, the moral laws of our government are were not created for believers but unbelievers…
1 Timothy 1:8-12 (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
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