Lying spirits in prophets and the Lord

JohnClay

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1 Kings 22:21-23
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
1 Kings Chapter 22
d. I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets: Apparently, one of the fallen angels volunteered for this task. Since Ahab wanted to be deceived, God would give him what He wanted, using a willing fallen angel who worked through willing unfaithful prophets.

i. “It is rather a personified spirit of prophecy (Zechariah 13:2; 1 John 4:6), for even the false prophets may be governed by supernatural or spiritual forces rather than merely human reason. It represents the power of a lie in the mouth of someone opposed to the truth and speaking for his own ends.” (Wiseman)

2 Chronicles 18:20-22
20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ 21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
2 Chronicles Chapter 18
(very similar to the last notes)
d. I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets: Apparently, one of the fallen angels volunteered for this task. Since Ahab wanted to be deceived, God would give him what He wanted, using a willing fallen angel who worked through willing unfaithful prophets.

i. “The Hebrew that underlies the phrase rendered ‘a spirit’ (came forward) reads literally, ‘the (well-known) spirit,’ i.e., Satan the tempter (as in Job 1:6-12)… Apparently Michaiah seems to assume among his hearers a working knowledge of the Book of Job.” (Payne)

ii. “This strange incident can only be understood against the background of other Old Testament passages, especially Deuteronomy 13:11 and Ezekiel 14:1-11. both these passages speak of people being enticed by false prophets, in each case as a result of a link with idolatry.” (Selman)

BTW I was also thinking of this: (kind of related)
The Matrix: Script

Oracle:
One of you is going to die..which one...will be up to you...

[when neither of them died]

Morpheus:
She told you _exactly_ what you needed to hear..that's all. Neo, sooner or later, you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a different between _knowing_ the path...and _walking_ the path...

I was also thinking about white lies and not wanting to hurt people's feelings...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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... and this should probably give us some insight into what Paul may have "meant" in his letters to the Romans and to the Thessalonians.

Take it as something to consider rather than as a dogmatic pronouncement being made on my part.
 
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JohnClay

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... and this should probably give us some insight into what Paul probably "meant" in his letters to the Romans and to the Thessalonians.

Take it as something to consider rather than as a dogmatic pronouncement on my part.
Hi could you state the verses or chapters you're talking about?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi could you state the verses or chapters you're talking about?

Sure. There's (more or less) Roman's 1:28-32, and then 2 Thessalonians 2:11 (more or less). I say "more or less" because in this ultra short citation I'm making, I fully realize there are various inter-textual contexts that need to be taken into account. However, the basic idea I'm trying to dissuade is the interpretation that God Himself waves a hand and certain folks then go spiritually bonkers. No, I rather think that Paul is referring to the scriptural tradition you've nicely quoted in your OP as a part of what he is implying to these early Christians.

To some extent, it really IS THE DEVIL who makes us 'do it,' but within certain social and spiritual contexts.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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One thing I think of is a person can not be deceived by a lying spirit or delusion, unless the person has the character to be deceived and is not attentive to our Shepherd's voice.

Yes, good point! And that would be a part of the various contexts I've alluded to above. Thank you for expanding that out a little bit more for us, com7fy8.
 
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JohnClay

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On the topic of deception:

2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.​
 
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JohnClay

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One thing I think of is a person can not be deceived by a lying spirit or delusion, unless the person has the character to be deceived and is not attentive to our Shepherd's voice.
What if two Christians tried to work out whether there should be the ordination of women or not - and both believed the Holy Spirit guided them? Does one have a delusion?
 
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JohnClay

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Sure. There's (more or less) Roman's 1:28-32, and then 2 Thessalonians 2:11 (more or less).....
2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

c. That they should believe the lie: Specifically, God sends them the lie. This isn’t just any lie, but the lie, the lie that has enthralled the human race since Adam. This is the lie that God is not God, and that we are or can be gods.

i. “His point is that the last pseudo-Messiah or anti-Christ will embody all that is profane and blasphemous, every conceivable element of impiety; and that, instead of being repudiated, he will be welcome by Jews as well as pagans.” (Moffatt)​
 
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Neogaia777

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1 Kings 22:21-23
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
1 Kings Chapter 22


2 Chronicles 18:20-22
20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ 21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
2 Chronicles Chapter 18
(very similar to the last notes)


BTW I was also thinking of this: (kind of related)


I was also thinking about white lies and not wanting to hurt people's feelings...
Psalms 32:2- "Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit."

John 1:47- "Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"

God Bless!
 
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Norbert L

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I was also thinking about white lies and not wanting to hurt people's feelings...
Then there are people during WWII who hid Jews at risk to their own life. If they were asked by the Nazis, "do you know anyone hiding Jews?" and then lied about it. Would that be a good or evil thing to do?

From what I can tell lying is dependant on circumstances and the commandment about bearing false witness has more to do with the legal system.
 
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Neogaia777

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1 Kings 22:21-23
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
1 Kings Chapter 22


2 Chronicles 18:20-22
20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ 21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
2 Chronicles Chapter 18
(very similar to the last notes)


BTW I was also thinking of this: (kind of related)


I was also thinking about white lies and not wanting to hurt people's feelings...
But in those cases it was God wishing to deceive those who were already wishing to deceive, etc, to catch them in their own cunning, etc, kind of like the same thing when God hardened the heart of Pharaoh (further), etc...

So they would fill their sins to the full, and not to mention faster and sooner, overwith quicker, etc...

I also wonder sometimes if that was not also some of the true purpose behind the OT law covenant sometimes as well maybe, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Then there are people during WWII who hid Jews at risk to their own life. If they were asked by the Nazis, "do you know anyone hiding Jews?" and then lied about it. Would that be a good or evil thing to do?

From what I can tell lying is dependant on circumstances and the commandment about bearing false witness has more to do with the legal system.
Yes, lying is not always a crime or a sin, and in fact, the Bible is chocked full of situations and circumstances of "lot's and lot's of exceptions to the normal rules", etc...

Some might say that is when you really need to know the real difference between the "letter of a law", and it's "Spirit", to get those "right", etc...

God Bless!
 
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com7fy8

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What if two Christians tried to work out whether there should be the ordination of women or not - and both believed the Holy Spirit guided them? Does one have a delusion?
If one disagrees with the other, I would say one of them is mistaken. And I guess the person would be deluded . . . to some extent, at least about that issue. But I don't think this would have to mean the person is fully with the devil.

And, of course, both Christians could be mistaken, somehow. Even if one has the correct idea, still he or she could have a pride problem so the person is not being humble about having the right idea. So, even the one with the right idea could be deluded in pride, if not in incorrect belief.
 
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