Concerning the translation of the Bible

Knee V said:

The Orthodox New Testament, from Holy Apostles Convent, exists, and it matches the criteria you mentioned. However, I am not a huge fan of it. I like it to an extent, but it reads like it was translated by a non-native English speaker with a scholarly knowledge of English, if that makes sense. There are several places where the syntax is just a little off, or where a more traditional wording might have been more familiar to churched English speaking Christians.

For example, they translate John 1 as "In the beginning was the Logos..." I get it, but English renderings of that have pretty much always been "In the beginning was the Word," and that is very familiar to churched English-speaking Christians.

Another example off the top of my head (I am not at home and don't have it in front of me) is from 1 John, where they use the definite article before "light" where normal English usage would have no article, and I remember that it was at least once in the opening verses. I think (I'll look it up later and correct myself if I am wrong here) it even has "The Logos of Life" or even "The Logos of the Life." Later, "God is the light" instead of "God is light."

There are some other examples. It's not horrible, but I just don't like how it reads.

As for the Old Testament, I am a big fan of Michael Asser's translation of the LXX. It is available at lulu dot com, and it comes in several volumes, both paperback and hardback. Just as the OSB is a revision of the LXX using the NKJV as a starting point for the translation, it is a translation of the LXX that uses the KJV as a starting point. It changes the KJV wording where necessary to bring it into conformity to the LXX, and retains the KJV wording where possible. That is my normal go-to Old Testament.

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Here's what I was talking about:

Nick Moser said:

what version of the NT was that? I like Brenton's OT

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The Orthodox New Testament, from Holy Apostles Convent.

I would love to see an official English Orthodox Bible translated from the LXX by Orthodox, for Orthodox that still retains some thees and thous to maintain formality. However, the day that happens will be the day there is a single Orthodox jurisdiction in North America.

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Verily, I think thee and thou hast a point.

The most significant doctrinal issue is that the importance of fasting is weakened in the Alexandrian texts.

Care to give some examples from Alexandrian (critical/minority/NU) vs Byzantine (majority, MT, including TR) families upon this topic?

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Good question. It is one of manuscript tradition, prior usage in other Scriptures in correlation AND historical interpretational tradition & experience.

The verses in question on fasting is Matthew 17:21 & the parallel in Mark 9:29.

Mt 17:21 NKJV However, this kind does not go out except by prayer & fasting.”
KJV Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer & fasting.
Latin Vulgate 'Hoc autem genus non eicitur nisi per orationem et ieiunium ('fasting').'

Modern Literal Version (2019 translation from the Majority/Byzantine Text) 'But this variety of demon does not travel out except in prayer & fasting.'

English Majority Text Version However, this kind does not go out except by prayer & fasting."

Orthodox Study Bible SB (2008) However, this kind does not go out except by prayer & fasting.” (a: NU Text omits this verse)

https://www.worldhistory.biz/download567/The_Orthodox_Study_Bible_-_St.pdf

NASB (1977) [“But this kind does not go out except by prayer & fasting.”]
NASB (updated) "But this kind does not go out except by prayer & fasting."
ASV (critical/Alexandrian text) But this kind goeth not out save by prayer & fasting.
Young's Literal Translation 'And this kind doth not go forth except in prayer & fasting.'
Aramaic Bible in Plain English “But this kind does not go out except by fasting & by prayer.”
Apostolic Bible Polyglot 2006 But this kind does not go forth except by prayer & fasting.
Analytical Literal Translation "But this kind does not go out except by prayer & fasting."
Orthodox Jewish Bible 'But this kind [i.e., kind of mazikim (malicious spirits)] do not come out except by tefillah & tzom.'

Modern Spelling Tyndale/Coverdale Bible 'Howbeit, this kind goeth not out but by prayer & fasting.'

The NIV (based on critical text) only has Mt 17:21 in a footnote but not in the text of ch. 17.

Other critical text bible versions that omit the verse completely: NLV, ESV, ISV, NET, ERV, RSV, GNB, Sinaitic NT 1918, ESVUK, CEB, CSB, LEB, RNAB, etc.)

99.4% of all Greek manuscripts--early & diversely widespread (MT) of Matthew include the verse Mt 17:21.

The only Greek manuscripts not having it are the codex Vaticanus (4th century) Uncial 0281 (7th), codex Theta/Koridethi (9th), minuscules 33 & 892 (9th)

It is found in the Majority of all Greek manuscripts including Sinaiticus correction, C, D, E, F, G, H, K, L, M, O, S, U, V, W, X, Y, Gamma, Delta, Pi, Sigma, Phi & Omega among the uncial or capital lettered manuscripts.

The verse is also present throughout the Latin tradition, thus it is found in the vast majority of Latin manuscripts as well, both early & late.

It is included in the Old Latin copies of a, aur, b, c, d, f, ff2, g1, l, n, q, r1. It is in the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac Pecrapa, Harclean, some Coptic Boharic, the Armenian, some Ethiopic, the Georgian & the Slavonic ancient versions.

Only two Old Latin manuscripts do not contain it: ite (5th century) & itff1 (8th)

The verse is found in some important early Greek codices: Codex W (late 4th/early 5th century), Codex C & D (both 5th), Codex E & L (both 8th), Codex G (9th century)

Diatesssaron includes it. (160AD, Harmony of the Gospels by Taitian)

It is quoted by such early church writers as Origen (3rd Century), Asterius, Hilary, Basil, Ambrose, Chrysostom (Homilies, 4th), Jerome (late 4th, Ad Jovinum, i. 12 ) & Augustine (early 5th).

Origen noted in his book On Fasting (3rd Century), “He (Jesus) taught likewise that fasts are to be weapons for battling with the more direful demons…”

There is even a stronger case for Mark 9:29, the parallel verse & context to Mt 17:21.

All the Greek manuscripts have it, but again, only a few do not include the words, 'and fasting.' These ancient manuscripts, however, support the translation that does not include fasting: ℵ B 0274 k.

In my opinion, based on the manuscript evidence & early church fathers & writings & tradition, it seems overwhelmingly a part of the biblical text of the Bible (this includes Mark 9:29 with the words, 'and fasting' included in the biblical text) & not to be omitted.

Prayer & fasting are frequently yoked together in Scriptures (Psalm 35:3; Daniel 9:3; Matt 17:21; Mark 9:29; I Cor 7:5)

The Orthodox Christian Tradition on Fasting — St. Andrew Greek orthodox Church

Orthodox Christian Tradition on Fasting

"Fasting, or abstaining from food, was a discipline practiced by our Lord Himself. It was after forty days of prayer and fasting in the wilderness, that Jesus victoriously faced the temptations of the devil (St. Matthew 4:1-11). He asked His disciples to use fasting, coupled with prayer, as a means to achieve spiritual victories (St. Matthew 17:21; St. Mark 9:29; St. Luke 2:37), and the example of the Lord was followed by the holy disciples in their Apostolic Ministry and instruction to the early Christians"(Acts 14:23; 27:9; 1; 1 Cor 7:5; 2 Cor 6:5, 11:27).

"The practice of fasting is rich with meaning. Many of the Holy Fathers of the Church throughout the history of the Church have written about the significance of fasting. Saint Basil the Great, for example, tells us that fasting is not simply abstaining from food; it is, more importantly, the avoidance of sin. The Church in her hymnology describes fasting as the mother of chastity and prudence, as the accuser of sin and as the advocate of repentance, the life worthy of angels and the salvation of humans. Fasting becomes all of these when observed IN THE PROPER SPIRIT."

Just a personal experience. I had a young Christian that was being influenced by a friend who was of the Latter Day Saints (Mormon). I sought to show him the differences & errors of what the Scriptures taught with what Mormons taught. We were invited to go to one of their stake buildings.

I knew that there would be spiritual warfare involved in this & he & I both prayed & fasted before arriving. Upon entering the building & seeing people, I could see lighted aura's around people in there, that were demonic & I wanted to run out of there, not only experiencing evil in my spirit but actually seeing it.

But I knew that we were depending on the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ & the leading & guiding of the Holy Spirit. I made them tell my young Christian friend what they really believed (polytheism, exaltation as gods on other planets, another jesus, another spirit & another gospel than the biblical ones, etc.).

Our Lord Jesus Christ protected us & my friend continued to be discipled & is a mature Christian today, with his family.

I remember, too, there, a very young & large Mormon missionary, that after our talking, couldn't even pick up a typing machine off the floor & put it back on the table!

Such is the spiritual battle we Christians engage in daily & in prayer & fasting.

Mathetes66 said:

The NIV (based on critical text) only has Mt 17:21 in a footnote but not in the text of ch. 17.

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Thanks a lot for all the info. ...however what means „critical text” anyway?

Mathetes66 said:

The practice of fasting is rich with meaning

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Oh, yes, definitely!

Thanks a lot for all the info. ...however what means „critical text” anyway?

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The Critical Text is a Greek text of the NT that draws from a minority group of ancient Greek manuscripts & their variants in an attempt to preserve the most accurate wording possible.

In 1881 two scholars, Brooke Foss Westcott & Fenton J. A. Hort, printed their New Testament in Greek, which later became known as the Critical Text. Dismissing the Textus Receptus as an inferior text rife with errors, Westcott & Hort compiled a completely new Greek text, based almost exclusively on two 4th century manuscripts, the Codex Vaticanus & the Codex Sinaiticus.

Since then NT textual critics have further revised this Greek text, primarily by the United Bible Society (UBS) critical Greek text, edited by five men, including Kurt Aland & Bruce Metzger & the Novum Testamentum Graece edited by Eberhard Nestle & Kurt Aland.

The prior's 4th edition & the latter's 27th edition are now identical. This combined text is often referred to as the NU text (Nestle-Aland-UBS). You might see these abbreviations in the footnotes of study bibles: NU, TR (Textus Receptus), MT (Majority text).

This 'critical' or minority Greek text is in contrast to the Byzantine or Majority Greek text, based on the vast majority of Greek manuscripts.

New contributors to the NKJV's updates have put more of a balance to its translation, looking at both Greek texts & comparing, to seek to accurately obtain the actual original text of the Scriptures. New papyri are being discovered as well & add to these texts, as well as seeing the ancient church apologists, theologians & fathers & from what Greek manuscripts they were quoting.

Hope that is helpful.