Dear Jamdoc:
You said,
"Explain 1 Corinthians 5:5 using your works based salvation doctrine."
~ Quote by: Jamdoc.
I will quote this part of what you said in two parts (in reverse order). In other words, I will, address the latter half of what you said first, and then I will address the beginning part of what you said (after I first explain the latter half of what you wrote).
...your works based salvation doctrine
Well, this is not a true statement to what I actually believe. I do not believe in "
Works Alone Salvationism" which is implied by your statement here when you say "
your works based salvation doctrine." This suggests that I do not believe we are saved by God's grace. So your statement here is a false accusation. Yet, this is no surprise; Jesus said we would be accused falsely on His account (Matthew 5:11). For clarification:
I believe
salvation is
based on
God's grace. That is the foundation. That is the
base. Jesus is that grace. Jesus is the foundation like the foundation of a house. No man can lay another foundation but Jesus Christ. So to say that I believe in "
works based salvation" is patently false. I believe we are saved by the work of God. This would be salvation in the work of God in...
#1. "
The Justification Process" (i.e. Believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (the gospel), receiving Jesus as one's Savior, and in seeking forgiveness with Him by way of prayer) (
Which is a process of salvation that is not based on works but God's grace, and mercy - Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-5), and in:
#2. "
The Sanctification Process" (that follows afterwards) whereby all three persons of the Trinity (or Godhead) work in the believer's life to be fruitful in the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, loving their enemies, and in putting away grievous sins like lying, lusting, hate, etc. (
Under our free will cooperation in surrendering to the Lord); For Jesus said that if a branch does not bear fruit, it is cut down and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6). The servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter into the joy of His Lord (Matthew 25:21), and yet the unprofitable servant was told that they were to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16), and the author of Hebrews says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
If a believer happens to stumble into a sin on rare occasion, do they do a good work to offset that sin? No, of course not. They go to God's grace (Which is the
base and or the foundation) by confessing their sin to Jesus. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1). Confessing sin is with the intention of forsaking that sin because John also says "
we walk in the light... and the blood of Jesus Christ ... cleanses us from all sin" (Which is the context - 1 John 1:7). Walking in the light is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11). For Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
You said:
Explain 1 Corinthians 5:5
As to address 1 Corinthians 5:5:
Well, if you were to read the context, it condemns the man who committed fornication. Just look at the bolded words in red below.
"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13).
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
It is saying above here that forincators will not inherit the kingdom of God!
This means that fornicators are not saved.
The words "
inheriting the kingdom" is dealing with salvation because we read in Matthew 25 the following words:
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat..."
(Matthew 25:34-35).
Now, let's read 1 Corinthians 5:5 (in light of the context of what we just read).
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5).
1 Corinthians 5:5 is a Glorification Salvation verse. It is speaking of salvation in the future tense when the Rapture happens. "The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive
and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) (Note: Where are the dead in Christ rising from? This would be Abraham's bosom; Then after the Rapture, faithful believers who die then go directly to Heaven).
Also, it needs to be stated here: 1 Corinthians 5:5 is NOT saying that salvation cannot be had in the present tense if they seek forgiveness with the LORD. Paul was merely hoping that this fornicating believer would seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and be saved (by confession) before they died, and that they would THEN have the hope to be a partaker in the Rapture. 1 Corinthians 5:5 is describing a destruction of their flesh or body and not the destruction of the entire person whereby they would die. It is possible that they could be on the road to death quicker, as a result of their sin, but this was to push them to seek forgiveness with the LORD in order to have salvation again before they physically died.
Furthermore, this Christian Corinthian fornicator was delivered unto Satan. This means they are Satan's and not in God's possession anymore. Meaning, they are of the devil's kingdom and are unsaved like the rest of the devil's kingdom. With the prodigal son, he had gotten fed up by his own sin filled life and the emptiness in it and the problems it caused him. There was no peace. The Christian Corinthian fornicator was delivered unto Satan in a similar way like the prodigal son's sinful or prodigal situation. In the case in 1 Corinthians 5:5, this time of being in the devil's possession (Meaning he was unsaved) was to show the Corinthian believer the futility and despair of his own sin (and lack of peace in not being saved) so as to get him to break him with a godly sorrow so as to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and come back to God's people and express his sorrow and new change of life. For if the Corinthian believer were to do this, he would be saved on the Day of Glorification or the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan would be an instrument in his chastisement of his physical body as a result of his sin; And this would give him the push or nudge to seek forgiveness with the Lord and find peace and salvation again (like when he first had it when he first accepted Jesus). There is no true salvation, peace and love if one is in their sins or justifying sin.
As for the Alzheimer's, that is biology, that is the flesh failing and this flesh IS failing ever since sin entered the world it goes right down to our DNA, no flesh lives forever, and everyone gets sick and many people have things just in their DNA that will develop into sickness over time whether they are saved or not, whether they live a good life or not (although living a bad life is MORE likely to cause illness, it can always just be a biological thing). When you are saved, your spirit is quickened but your flesh is the same old rotten sinful flesh. Sometimes a disease can be scourging or chastisement from the Lord for walking contrary to Him as a bad child of God (it doesn't mean you aren't a child of God though, in fact it can be evidence that God is dealing with you "as a son" all by itself if whenever they sin their flesh is afflicted and bad things happen to them) Hebrews 12:5-8 but also remember John 9:3, not all afflictions and disabilities are punishment, sometimes its for the glory of God, maybe that affliction is what draws a person to God in the first place (in the case of Alzheimers probably not unless he makes a miraculous recovery and it glorifies God, but I was just talking affliction in general)
The traumatic brain injury isn't always a punishment either, it could have been caused by someone else's action, their free will. God does not protect you from the free will of others to do evil. When the Great Tribulations come, there's going to be a lot of Christians hunted down and killed, that doesn't mean they weren't true Christians because God didn't protect them, quite the opposite. Revelation 6:9-11 So we can't really judge that because something bad happened to him, that he's not a son of God. he could be a son of God walking in the flesh, someone else could have used their free will wrongly and resulted in an accident (or intentional malice) and once that injury has happened, that's the failing and weakness of the flesh.
The mentally ill, that can be a failure of the flesh, either something just naturally in their DNA, it can be an affliction for walking contrary to God once saved again a chastisement of the Lord, and if they were not saved, it could also be demonic possession. So it really depends on the nature of the mental illness.
This sounds like gnosticism to me. That the body can sin, and yet the soul and the spirit does not sin and can be saved (despite what the sinful body does). St. Augustine helped to push this belief, and then John Calvin and his followers help to propagate it (Which is now the dominant belief in most churches today). But it's true origins is the enemy. In the garden: One of the first lies by the devil was to convince Eve that she could break God's command and not die. Gnosticism was later revived in John's day and he wrote about how there would be those believers who said that they do not have sin [
when they do sin] (1 John 1:8). For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).
You said:
The drunk.. I really think that's a 1 Corinthians 5 moment. Killing the flesh to save the soul. Or he could never have been really saved.
Wow. Really? You really believe that?!
How can God be good if this is the case?
Can God agree with sin?
Surely not.
Anyways, the Corinthian believer was not killed. His flesh was persecuted or destroyed in the sense of like that of something similar to what happened to Job (even though Job was not being cast out and neither did he temporarily lose his salvation in such a situation, either). Job's flesh met destruction, but he himself was not destroyed.
Besides, it is implied in 2 Corinthians 2 that this fornicator Corinthian believer sought forgiveness with the Lord and he was trying to come back, and the brethren were not allowing him to come back; But Paul was telling the Corinthians to restore him back into the fold. At least, that is what is a strong possibility here (When looking at the whole counsel of God's Word). For we read in the 2nd letter to the Corinthians this...
"Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. " (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).
Anyways, I hope this helps;
May God's good ways be upon you (even if I strongly disagree with your unbiblical view of Soteriology).
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely,
~ J.
