The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Where do you find in the New Testament that we are to obey over 400 laws to be saved?

I didn't say we have to obey approx. 400 laws to be saved. I am saying that certain laws out of the 400 relate to our salvation. I have provided a sampling list to you above that shows this.

You said:
How does the Bible teach that we are saved?

I see Four Aspects of Salvation described in the Bible with only two of them being our responsibility to apply to our lives.

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

You said:
IF you need laws to follow, to imitate, the fruit of the Spirit, then the Spirit cannot really be living in your heart.

Setst wrote: 2 Corinthians 3:6-9 NASB
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he wrote to them a letter that tells them to do the very thing he condemns. The letters of the New Testament gives life because without the NT Scriptures, you would not know about salvation in Jesus Christ and or the Holy Spirit. Paul is referring to the OT letter that kills. It literally killed a person. The OT had laws on capital punishment involving God's people implementing that form of punishment. But in the New Covenant, this is not so. The context also says "He has made US competent ministers of a New Covenant." Paul had a vision from Jesus. Cornelius heard the gospel by Peter and the Spirit fell upon him and his house. No New Testament Scriptures was leading Paul, or Cornelius to the faith. During that time, the New Covenant was being established by the working of the Lord, and the Spirit.

You said:
Setst RE: The 400+ commands that you feel must be followed to be saved is the same thing. Your are replacing the Spirit with written laws and regulations that you feel must be followed to be saved. The Scriptures are clear, which I have repeated for you, showing the exact commands of Jesus and the Apostles necessary to be saved – to deny self and follow Christ into a life of love for God and others by walking in the Spirit.

Again, I am not saying that all 400 commands are for salvation. Some are related to our salvation, and others are not tied to our salvation. Not all sin leads to death (1 John 5:16-17). I am not replacing the Spirit with written Laws to be saved. The Spirit inspired men to write the commands in the NT that I showed you.

Beyond that, the sacraments that Christ commanded are essential to be followed as a true believer, and the Great Commission, if one is a true believer. All the other instructions given by the Apostles to the Church are to help regulate our lives while here on this earth as a church, but not for salvation. And some of those laws were cultural for that time period.

Sacraments? Are you talking about some kind of church traditions not exactly spelled out in the Bible? Are you Orthodox?

You said:
Setst wrote:
I review the Passages as follows:
"Matthew 19:17-19"
is not instruction to obey the Law, but rather, Jesus is testing the man.


No. You are not believing these words of Jesus. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). This statement cannot be true in your belief. You can either accept these words by Jesus or you will reject them. The choice is yours.

You said:
Setst wrote::
The real test of faith was whether the man was willing to give up everything to follow Jesus...

Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
...

It still does not undo what Jesus said about how if we will enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus also was teaching eternal life as a part of keeping God's commands in Luke 10:25-28, too. So Jesus does not agree with you.

You said:
Setst RE: You are saying the same thing I just stated. And if you mean something less, then you are watering down what Jesus commanded regarding our salvation. The command of Christ to be saved is to, by faith in Him, to deny self and take up your cross and follow Jesus into a life of love by His Spirit. This is the command we follow to be saved.

We are to follow Jesus according to the commands given to us in the NT and not of our own imagining.

Setst wrote:
"Luke 10:25-28" describes exactly what the New Covenant is, which is not obeying all kinds of laws and regulations; but rather to love others and love God.

A person can think that loving their neighbor is helping the environment, or just giving them chocolates as their soul perishes without hearing the gospel. A person may think that loving God is just saying, "I love you God" and not really doing what God says. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). We do not make up our own commands or follow our own minds. We follow what God says in His Word in the NT. The way in which we are to love is defined for us in the contract we are given and not by own thinking. Somebody can say they have God's Spirit to love but if they do not align with what God's Word says about loving others, they are simply doing their own thing outside the Spirit. For the Spirit cannot be contrary to the very Scriptures that were inspired by the Spirit.
 
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Setst RE: So you do believe we must follow the Mosaic Law (verse 18) to be saved? You flatly declared in other places that you did not believe this.

No. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
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Setst RE: So you do believe we must follow the Mosaic Law (verse 18) to be saved? You flatly declared in other places that you did not believe this.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
(John 1:17).

Any laws Jesus took from Moses are now uniquely His under His New Covenant teachings. Jesus was after all revealing grace, and TRUTH when we look at all of Christ's words. Jesus is now saying these words in Matthew 19:17, and not Moses.
 
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setst RE: Your point is well taken. My understanding, by reading the Psalms and the actual account, is that God sent the prophet to confront David, because God was giving David an opportunity to repent of his grievous sin before completely rejecting David. David, in humility, sincerely repented after that confrontation.

Consider also that Scripture states that if a believer disowns Christ, then Christ will also disown that believer:

Matthew 10:33 (NIV)
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Yet, Peter disowned Jesus before others three times. However Jesus I don't believe Jesus disowned Peter, but gave him a chance to repent.

I believe God looks on the heart, and David was a man after God's own heart.

Acts 13:22 “I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do."

The problem with thinking David was saved while in his sins of adultery and murder is that encourages those in the faith today to do the same sins with the thinking they are saved, and it also means God is a respecter of persons.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

David needed to confess of sin to be forgiven of sin (of which he did in Psalms 51).
 
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faroukfarouk

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John 14 says lots of things; which bot in particular are you referring to?



The word also says:
- that we love because God first loved us, 1 John 4:19.
- that love is a fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22
- that God has poured his love into our hearts through his Holy Spirit, Romans 5:5.
- that Jesus has commanded us to love as he loved us, John 13:34.
This tells me that God's love for us comes first and that it is the Holy Spirit who produces the fruit of love and who gives us God's love; the kind of love that enables us to keep Jesus' command to love even our enemies, Matthew 5:44, Romans 5:8.



Not me; I'm just pointing out other things that the word says and asking what you believe about that.



And what do you feel that you need, or have the right, to warn me about?
Good indeed to remember that "We love Him, because He first loved us", as John's First Epistle says.
 
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Aldebaran

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How many of these were achieved by the thief on the cross next to Jesus in the very short time he had left?

We can say the same thing in regards to a baby that dies. Is a baby not saved because it did not place faith in Jesus Christ? Surely not. There is not a one size fits all salvation package for all people. Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required.
 
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Jamdoc

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How many of these were achieved by the thief on the cross next to Jesus in the very short time he had left?
That's always one of my favorite salvation examples, he only got saved in his last hours, but he demonstrated all it took to be saved. No story in the bible is thrown in there just for funsies. The example of the thief on the cross next to Jesus is given as an ultimate example of the depths of God's forgiveness and that it takes no positive action other than to admit your guilt and place your faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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That's always one of my favorite salvation examples, he only got saved in his last hours, but he demonstrated all it took to be saved. No story in the bible is thrown in there just for funsies. The example of the thief on the cross next to Jesus is given as an ultimate example of the depths of God's forgiveness and that it takes no positive action other than to admit your guilt and place your faith in Jesus Christ.

The thief on the cross confessed Jesus by defending Him.

Jesus says, "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33).
 
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Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (See: Titus 1:16).
The author of Hebrews says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
Anyone who is honest with themselves in looking at the context will see that these verses plainly mean what they say.
 
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Jamdoc

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The thief on the cross confessed Jesus by defending Him.

Jesus says, "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33).
But did he go into a detailed list of every sin he had done in his life to check them off one by one? No, he just confessed that he was a sinner, had earned death, was getting his just punishment, and believed that Jesus was sinless, and believed that Jesus really was the Son of God and asked Jesus to remember him (not the exact words but it's pretty obvious that Jesus saw it as a request to save him).. and Jesus promised he was saved, and would be with Him in paradise.
that shows that it's grace, not works, cause his works had earned him death.
it also shows that salvation is instant, not a process of growing righteousness over time through your obedience.
Now is this guy gonna be ruling over cities and nations in the millennium? Probably not, he probably won't have a whole lot of blessings and authority in heaven and the new earth after the resurrection. But if you place your faith fully in Christ, not your own works, but in Christ's finished work, you'll still meet him. I'll tell him his story was short, but very inspirational.
 
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setst777

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Hi Bible Highlighter,

You quote the following Scriptures and then respond:

Hebrews 3:13-14
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:10
Acts of the Apostles 13:43
Acts of the Apostles 14:22
Colossians 1:23
Romans 11:21-22

These verses would not be true above if things are as you say in the fact that believers will in time always do what is perfectly right and they never need to worry about continuing in God's grace, or the faith, or His goodness, etc.

Setst RE: My response has always been that if you claim you do not sin than the truth is not in you. However, as Christians we should never sin. If we do sin in weakness, but sincerely repent, then God forgives us.

None of the Passages you gave state or teach that you must obey 400+ commands to be saved or remain saved, or have anything to do with salvation or fruits of the Spirit.

Rather
, if we repent and believe in Jesus –which is to deny self and take up your cross and follow Jesus into a life of love for God and others you are saved. Then, as a New Creature in Christ, you will fulfill the whole law. These are the commands and terms of God to be saved in the New Covenant.

When you commit to this Covenant with God as taught in the Gospel, you are sanctified by faith in Jesus and declared righteous by God. You receive His Spirit to give your faith the victory over sin and to live out a new life of love – the fruits of the Spirit - dead to a life of sin and alive into a life of love and righteousness (Romans 6). Thus, by faith we are sanctified unto Christ to do good works as the Spirit empowers our faith to do so.

In opposition to what I outlined, you are teaching that the Spiritual Fruits are not by the Spirit's power in you, but instead are the result of imitating the Spiritual fruits by obeying laws and commands. That is not the Gospel; rather that is a counterfeit of the Spirit.

Regarding the other commands in the NT, those who are saved, and have the Spirit and the Spiritual Fruits that come from the Spirit, will conscientiously attempt to obey the laws of government and Church, but only because they are saved and possess Christs Spirit and the fruits the Spirit bears in us by faith.

Obeying any laws of government or Church by no means brings us salvation or Spiritual Fruit, or is related to that saving experience, but by walking in the Spirit we are empowered to live a holy and sanctified life.

Galatians 3:3-6 (NIV)
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

The Ten Commandments are the most important commands, written by God himself; yet, even these are made obsolete by the Gospel. And now you also want to add 400+ more commands onto the New Covenant Gospel???

Galatians 3:3-6 (NIV)
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

If you are saved by a repentant faith in Jesus Christ, the Spirit will bear Spiritual fruits in your life according to your faith, then you radiate the love of God, and you will obey the laws of those over you. But no one is perfect and never sins. However, now that we belong to Christ and walk by His Spirit, our desire will be never to sin in any way, and to, by faith live by the Spirit in us.

No Scripture states that we are saved by obeying 400+ commands, not even the Ten Commandments that were written by God himself.

One who is saved already will follow all the laws of the land – government, employer, and Church. The Apostles kept reminding us of these truths, and so I remind you.

It is not faith + works = salvation
Rather it by faith we are saved = demonstrated by good works.

How is this possible? This is possible because Christ Jesus took away the written code that condemned us, nailing them to the cross, so that we may live a new life in the Spirit by faith in Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:3 (NIV)
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he wrote to them a letter that tells them to do the very thing he condemns.

Setst RE: Yet LOOK, that is what Paul wrote to us right before your eyes – Paul wrote that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. It is not that Paul is a hypocrite, but the issue is with your understanding. "The Spirit gives life."

#1. If your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell; And if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell (Matthew 5:29-30 cf. Matthew 5:28-30) (Is it for salvation? Yes, the command itself states this).

Setst RE: Do you think Jesus really meant that we are to pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands if we sin? Don’t be silly. No Christian on earth would have eyes or hands if that were true. Can’t you see that Jesus was teaching the seriousness of sin? A true Believer will not want to sin because they are born of God by faith. If we do sin, but then sincerely repent, God will forgive us. Not that we have to pluck out our eyes and cut off your hands.

Sacraments? Are you talking about some kind of church traditions not exactly spelled out in the Bible?

Setst RE: My posts to you explained this.
  • Baptism
  • Communion
  • Marriage – for those who marry that established with Adam and Eve.
These sacraments are commanded by Lord Jesus until the end.

Lord Jesus and the Apostles commanded other things we should do, but no to be saved, but because we are in a saving relationship with God.

setst777 said:
Setst RE:
So you do believe we must follow the Mosaic Law (verse 18) to be saved? You flatly declared in other places that you did not believe this.

No. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

Setst RE: No… Unfortunately you are just not getting any of this.

Jesus was referring to the Mosaic Law, Ten Commandments in Matthew 19:17-18 as Jesus himself stated:

Matthew 19:17-18
17
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 Which ones?he inquired.
Jesus replied,

  • “‘You shall not murder,
  • you shall not commit adultery,
  • you shall not steal,
  • you shall not give false testimony,
  • 19 honor your father and mother,
  • and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"
[Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20; Lev. 19:18]

20 All these I have kept,” the young man said.

Jesus was testing the man. How do we know this?

Is Jesus God?
Is Jesus good?

Matthew 19:17-18
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good."

Luke 18:19
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
20 You know the commandments: ‘*You shall not commit adultery, *you shall not murder, *you shall not steal, *you shall not give false testimony, *honor your father and mother.’ [Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20]
21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

Mark 10:18-20
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
19 You know the commandments: ‘*You shall not murder, *you shall not commit adultery, *you shall not steal, *you shall not give false testimony, *you shall not defraud, *honor your father and mother.
[Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

Q) Was Jesus testing the man, or is Jesus not God?
Q) Was Jesus testing the man, or is Jesus not good?
Q) Which commandments was Jesus quoting to the man?
Q) Which commandments did the man keep ever since he was a boy?
Q) Were the commandments Jesus quote familiar to the man?
Q) When the man was a boy, Jesus had not even started his ministry yet, so how could he know about the New Covenant?
Q) Was Jesus testing the man by saying you have to keep the commandments, or do you have to keep the commandments to be saved?
Q) Did the man know which commandments Jesus meant? How did he know?
Q) Did Jesus make clear after the test that what the man must do to be saved is to deny self (sell all he had) and then follow Him? Isn’t that the Gospel message?
Q) Isn't the Gospel declare that Jesus died for the sins of the world so that those who repent and believe in him will be saved? If so, why do you keep rejecting what is self evident?

Mark 10: 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

In Summary

You still think the fruit of the Spirit are the result of following commands, even though all the Scriptures appose your opinion. You quote Passages trying to prove your point, but they do not state that the fruit of the Spirit are commanded, but instead, the fruit of the Spirit is the work of the Spirit in those who repent and believe in Jesus, walking by His Spirit.
Read Romans 8.

John 15:5-6
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Remaining in Christ is walking by His Spirit in us – for without Christ we can do nothing.

What you are teaching is a counterfeit Spirit by trying to make your own Spiritual fruit by keeping laws and commands, and then call that the fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit himself works out the Spiritual fruits in your life by faith so that you are able to live a righteous and holy life, and that includes obeying your government, employer, and Church laws and regulations.

Galatians 5:22-26 (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

You don’t receive Spiritual life by obeying all kinds of laws, as if you can now make Spiritual Fruit by your own effort – by your own flesh.

John 6:63 (NIV)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

IF you need laws to follow, to imitate, the fruit of the Spirit, then the Spirit cannot really be living in your heart.

Blessings
 
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Setst RE: My response has always been that if you claim you do not sin than the truth is not in you. However, as Christians we should never sin. If we do sin in weakness, but sincerely repent, then God forgives us.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with the whole counsel of God's Word (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Proverbs 28:13), and neither would it be consistent with the context (1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15).

1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Jesus says, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;..." (John 15:10). You just think you abide in His love anyways (even without truly keeping His commandments).
 
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@setst777

Do you believe a Christian can stumble into a grievous sin for a short amount of time and be saved while committing that sin?

Meaning, if a believer lusts after a woman, do you believe they are in danger of hellfire while committing that sin?
If not, then why does Jesus appear to think that such a person is in danger of hellfire in Matthew 5:28-30?

1 John 3:15 says that to hate your brother is to be like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

How many acts of hate does it take to your brother?
How many acts of murder does it take to be a murderer?
Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer.

Do you believe sin is transgression of the Law as per 1 John 3:4?

Do you believe future sin is paid for a believer?

Please answer carefully. In 1 John 1:8, you appear to take the "Sin and Still Be Saved Proponent's" view on the interpretation of this verse (Which is wrong). This means that you believe that to say we don't have sin means there is no truth in us, and yet, you undoubtedly believe we are still saved (Hence, we can sin and still be saved). But Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Your version of grace (if I am understanding you correctly) is teaching that we can never godly and righteously in this present world because you appear to side with the faulty OSAS understanding on 1 John 1:8 that we can never overcome grievous sins.
 
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Neogaia777

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Of course, this is not my idea … it is what John 14 says!

John 14 (NLT):
15 If you love me, obey my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.
19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father,
and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.

And because they love me, my Father will love them.
And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.

23 All who love me will do what I say.
My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.

John 14 says: Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is conditional
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:15
If you love Jesus, Father God will give you the Holy Spirit … 14:15-16
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:21
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, He will love you and reveal Himself to you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, you will do what He says … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God and Jesus (and the HS?) will come inside … 14:23

John 14 says most believers today do NOT have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside
… simply because they are NOT obeying His commandments.
Does this remind you of the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.
The Holy Spirit only dwells in only fully submitted (to Him) believers.

God Bless!
 
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None of the Passages you gave state or teach that you must obey 400+ commands to be saved or remain saved, or have anything to do with salvation or fruits of the Spirit.

Okay. You're not listening to what I have said. I am not saying that we have to obey all 400 plus commands to be saved. There are approximately 130 of them that do not deal with salvation, and there is a small chunk of them I am still studying them to learn more about them (So as to determine if they do deal with salvation or not).

The sampling of the list of verses I gave you was not to prove that we have to obey all 400 plus commands. That is not what I said. The list I gave yesterday (were broken down into three categories,

(1) The Two Greatest Commands,
(2) Grace Commands,
(3) Sanctification Commands.

These commands show (that I provided yesterday) are a sampling of the kind of commands that deal with salvation. I provided verses at the end of each command that shows why I believe that particular command is a salvation issue. Again, I repeat, this was not me trying to prove we have to obey all 400 plus commands for salvation. While God desires us to obey Him in all things, not all commands are a salvation issue if we do not obey them in this life.
 
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Rather
, if we repent and believe in Jesus –which is to deny self and take up your cross and follow Jesus into a life of love for God and others you are saved. Then, as a New Creature in Christ, you will fulfill the whole law. These are the commands and terms of God to be saved in the New Covenant.

When you commit to this Covenant with God as taught in the Gospel, you are sanctified by faith in Jesus and declared righteous by God. You receive His Spirit to give your faith the victory over sin and to live out a new life of love – the fruits of the Spirit - dead to a life of sin and alive into a life of love and righteousness (Romans 6). Thus, by faith we are sanctified unto Christ to do good works as the Spirit empowers our faith to do so.

In opposition to what I outlined, you are teaching that the Spiritual Fruits are not by the Spirit's power in you, but instead are the result of imitating the Spiritual fruits by obeying laws and commands. That is not the Gospel; rather that is a counterfeit of the Spirit.

While the Spirit resides within a believer, God is not going to force us to do something that we do not want to do. While we are changed spiritually in our heart and have new desires, we need to adhere to the Spirit's written instructions (Which is the account of Christ and His followers of the New Testament).

As I told you before, Scripture says very specifically this:

"...Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

So we are told to walk in the Spirit.
It is not some automatic thing unless we decide to walk in the Spirit.

You said:
Regarding the other commands in the NT, those who are saved, and have the Spirit and the Spiritual Fruits that come from the Spirit, will conscientiously attempt to obey the laws of government and Church, but only because they are saved and possess Christs Spirit and the fruits the Spirit bears in us by faith.

No. In my experience, many are lazy to truly obey Jesus, and they do not care to to study or know about all of the New Testament commands let alone do they strive to obey them.

You said:
Obeying any laws of government or Church by no means brings us salvation or Spiritual Fruit, or is related to that saving experience, but by walking in the Spirit we are empowered to live a holy and sanctified life.

I gave you a sampling of commands that do deal with salvation. If you disagree, then you need to go back to my list I gave you yesterday and address those verses in each command that talk about how they are for salvation.

Oh, and Galatians 5:16 that says "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh", do you even know what the "lusts of the flesh" is according to the context of that chapter?

The works of the flesh (i.e. the lusts of the flesh) are these:

"Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

How are we led by the Spirit so as to not be under the Law of Moses?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

All Scripture is inspired by the Spirit.
While all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness, the New Testament Scripture is our primary source of righteous instruction because we are New Testament believers (or New Covenant children of God).

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:" (John 16:13).

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17).

"How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word." (Psalms 119:9) (NKJV).

Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason Christ died for us was that He might cleanse the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish.

John 16:8-9 says that the Spirit will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness. This happens when a person reads God's Word, the Bible. For can an adult person (whose mind can make right and wrong decisions) be saved without some kind of knowledge taken from the Bible? Can a person truly know about sin and righteousness without the Bible?
 
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I am not saying that we have to obey all 400 plus commands to be saved.
How many times have you told him this? I've lost count.
Actually, this is the reason why I don't read each and every post.
 
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Neogaia777

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I disagree with how you guys say we truly fulfill or truly achieve true obedience, cause it has to be or start with full submission of your own will and ways (to the Spirit) first, otherwise it is not truly "walking in the Spirit" but is the very same way people tried to do it under the OC, which was/is only to bring you to the ends of yourselves and your own ways only, etc, as per this post below:

False gospels do not require you to overcome sin

Truly walking in the Spirit is effortless, in case you didn't know...

But that only comes in and by a will; your own will and ways, being 100% fully submitted to His or His own, etc...

That is what truly walking in the Spirit really truly is and means, etc...

You have to get into and walk fully in sync with the Spirit, walking with Him fully and fully in sync with Him with every second (and every breath) of every moment of your life continually, and the rest becomes "effortless", etc, and that all starts with complete and full submission of your own will, etc...

The way you guys are trying to do it, (and are teaching it and preaching it) you cannot tell me you are truly succeeding, not truly or not really anyway...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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And you have to "erase" a full knowledge of sin to truly overcome; especially "all sin" as well... to truly do it anyway... which is only something the Holy Spirit can do, and can only do in a believer whose will and ways are 100% fully submitted to His or Him, and is then truly walking with Him (or in the Spirit with Him) after that, etc...

You guys will have to give up your own will and your own ways though, which is like pulling teeth with people like you guys, (no offense)...

Cause that is what fully submitting to Him or to the Spirit truly means, and then walking with Him afterward of course...

God Bless!
 
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