Hi Bible Highlighter,
You quote the following Scriptures and then respond:
Hebrews 3:13-14
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:10
Acts of the Apostles 13:43
Acts of the Apostles 14:22
Colossians 1:23
Romans 11:21-22
These verses would not be true above if things are as you say in the fact that believers will in time always do what is perfectly right and they never need to worry about continuing in God's grace, or the faith, or His goodness, etc.
Setst RE: My response has always been that if you claim you do not sin than the truth is not in you. However, as Christians we should never sin. If we do sin in weakness, but sincerely repent, then God forgives us.
None of the Passages you gave state or teach that you must obey 400+ commands to be saved or remain saved, or have anything to do with salvation or fruits of the Spirit.
Rather, if we repent and believe in Jesus –which is to deny self and take up your cross and follow Jesus into a life of love for God and others
you are saved. Then, as a New Creature in Christ, you will fulfill the whole law. These are the commands and terms of God to be saved in the New Covenant.
When you commit to this Covenant with God as taught in the Gospel, you are sanctified by faith in Jesus and declared righteous by God. You receive His Spirit to give your faith the victory over sin and to live out a new life of love
– the fruits of the Spirit - dead to a life of sin and alive into a life of love and righteousness (
Romans 6). Thus, by faith we are sanctified unto Christ to do good works as the Spirit empowers our faith to do so.
In opposition to what I outlined, you are teaching that the Spiritual Fruits are not by the Spirit's power in you, but instead are the result of imitating the Spiritual fruits by obeying laws and commands. That is not the Gospel; rather that is a counterfeit of the Spirit.
Regarding the other commands in the NT, those who are saved, and have the Spirit and the Spiritual Fruits that come from the Spirit, will conscientiously attempt to obey the laws of government and Church, but only because they are saved and possess Christs Spirit and the fruits the Spirit bears in us by faith.
Obeying any laws of government or Church by no means brings us salvation or Spiritual Fruit, or is related to that saving experience, but by walking in the Spirit we are empowered to live a holy and sanctified life.
Galatians 3:3-6 (NIV)
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
The Ten Commandments are the most important commands, written by God himself; yet, even these are made obsolete by the Gospel. And now you also want to add 400+ more commands onto the New Covenant Gospel???
Galatians 3:3-6 (NIV)
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
If you are saved by a repentant faith in Jesus Christ, the Spirit will bear Spiritual fruits in your life according to your faith, then you radiate the love of God, and you will obey the laws of those over you. But no one is perfect and never sins. However, now that we belong to Christ and walk by His Spirit, our desire will be never to sin in any way, and to, by faith live by the Spirit in us.
No Scripture states that we are saved by obeying 400+ commands, not even the Ten Commandments that were written by God himself.
One who is saved already will follow all the laws of the land – government, employer, and Church. The Apostles kept reminding us of these truths, and so I remind you.
It is not
faith + works = salvation
Rather it
by faith we are saved = demonstrated by good works.
How is this possible? This is possible because Christ Jesus took away the written code that condemned us, nailing them to the cross, so that we may live a new life in the Spirit by faith in Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:3 (NIV)
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Paul would be a hypocrite if he wrote to them a letter that tells them to do the very thing he condemns.
Setst RE: Yet LOOK, that is what Paul wrote to us right before your eyes – Paul wrote that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. It is not that Paul is a hypocrite, but the issue is with your understanding. "
The Spirit gives life."
#1. If your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell; And if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell (
Matthew 5:29-30 cf.
Matthew 5:28-30) (Is it for salvation? Yes, the command itself states this).
Setst RE: Do you think Jesus really meant that we are to pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands if we sin? Don’t be silly. No Christian on earth would have eyes or hands if that were true. Can’t you see that Jesus was teaching the seriousness of sin? A true Believer will not want to sin because they are born of God by faith. If we do sin, but then sincerely repent, God will forgive us. Not that we have to pluck out our eyes and cut off your hands.
Sacraments? Are you talking about some kind of church traditions not exactly spelled out in the Bible?
Setst RE: My posts to you explained this.
- Baptism
- Communion
- Marriage – for those who marry that established with Adam and Eve.
These sacraments are commanded by Lord Jesus until the end.
Lord Jesus and the Apostles commanded other things we should do, but no to be saved, but because we are in a saving relationship with God.
setst777 said: ↑
Setst RE: So you do believe we must follow the Mosaic Law (verse 18) to be saved? You flatly declared in other places that you did not believe this.
No. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.
Setst RE: No… Unfortunately you are just not getting any of this.
Jesus was referring to the Mosaic Law, Ten Commandments in
Matthew 19:17-18 as Jesus himself stated:
Matthew 19:17-18
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “
Which ones?”
he inquired.
Jesus replied,
- “‘You shall not murder,
- you shall not commit adultery,
- you shall not steal,
- you shall not give false testimony,
- 19 honor your father and mother,
- and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"
[
Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20; Lev. 19:18]
20
“All these I have kept,” the young man said.
Jesus was testing the man. How do we know this?
Is Jesus God?
Is Jesus good?
Matthew 19:17-18
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “
There is only One who is good."
Luke 18:19
19 “
Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “
No one is good—except God alone.
20
You know the commandments: ‘*
You shall not commit adultery, *you shall not murder, *you shall not steal, *you shall not give false testimony, *honor your father and mother.’ [
Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20]
21 “
All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
Mark 10:18-20
18 “
Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “
No one is good—except God alone.
19
You know the commandments: ‘*
You shall not murder, *
you shall not commit adultery, *
you shall not steal, *
you shall not give false testimony, *
you shall not defraud, *
honor your father and mother.’
[
Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “
all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
Q) Was Jesus testing the man, or is Jesus not God?
Q) Was Jesus testing the man, or is Jesus not good?
Q) Which commandments was Jesus quoting to the man?
Q) Which commandments did the man keep ever since he was a boy?
Q) Were the commandments Jesus quote familiar to the man?
Q) When the man was a boy, Jesus had not even started his ministry yet, so how could he know about the New Covenant?
Q) Was Jesus testing the man by saying you have to keep the commandments, or do you have to keep the commandments to be saved?
Q) Did the man know which commandments Jesus meant? How did he know?
Q) Did Jesus make clear after the test that what the man must do to be saved is to deny self (sell all he had) and then follow Him? Isn’t that the Gospel message?
Q) Isn't the Gospel declare that Jesus died for the sins of the world so that those who repent and believe in him will be saved? If so, why do you keep rejecting what is self evident?
Mark 10: 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “
One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
In Summary
You still think the fruit of the Spirit are the result of following commands, even though all the Scriptures appose your opinion. You quote Passages trying to prove your point, but they do not state that the fruit of the Spirit are commanded, but instead, the fruit of the Spirit is the work of the Spirit in those who repent and believe in Jesus, walking by His Spirit.
Read Romans 8.
John 15:5-6
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches.
If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Remaining in Christ is walking by His Spirit in us – for without Christ we can do nothing.
What you are teaching is a counterfeit Spirit by trying to make your own Spiritual fruit by keeping laws and commands, and then call that the fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit himself works out the Spiritual fruits in your life by faith so that you are able to live a righteous and holy life, and that includes obeying your government, employer, and Church laws and regulations.
Galatians 5:22-26 (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
You don’t receive Spiritual life by obeying all kinds of laws, as if you can now make Spiritual Fruit by your own effort – by your own flesh.
John 6:63 (NIV)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
IF you need laws to follow, to imitate, the fruit of the Spirit, then the Spirit cannot really be living in your heart.
Blessings