Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

Gregorikos said:
Nobody disputes that. We already know what the Father said- appoint these 12 men. Which Jesus did.

The question is, how is it that of all the Lord's disciples, both male and female, the 12 that were chosen to be the first group of apostles were all males? Odds are very high (as demonstrated above) that wasn't a random aspect of the decision. They had to be males for this job.

There have been various suggestions as to the reason why this is so, and all of it is more or less reasoned speculation, as none of us really know because the Bible simply doesn't say.

Some have opined essentially that it's because women aren't supposed to be leading, but the Bible has several examples that contradict that- Miriam, Deborah, Huldah. God clearly didn't have a problem with putting a woman in charge. And why would he have a problem with that? Women by and large are endowed equally as men with the same intelligence and spiritual gifts.

IMO it had to be a matter either of symbolism (i.e. relating to the 12 patriarchs) or practicality (God knew that men would be more effective in that role in that culture.)

Maybe the thing most to keep in mind is that it is not our place, twenty centuries later, to second-guess Christ's choices.

Once we start in with that approach, we can rationalize the setting-aside of any number of statements and actions made by Jesus which are enshrined in the Holy Scriptures that we nevertheless will still insist are the word of God, divine revelation, and even infallible.

Hawkins · Jan 22, 2020

It's ok if a female judge is chosen as she will be like a queen with her army of bodyguards. It's also ok if a female is chosen as a prophet to speak only to the house of Israel, as Israelites are not monsters.

However it is an issue when apostles need to travel the whole Palestine where roads are never safe. Even Jesus sometimes has to ask them to bring a sword with them. Some other times He asks them not to bring any weapon simply because they are men in order to stay safe, to spend nights in houses welcoming them, unless they are like Lot put among men who would rape men.

Moreover in an ancient world, education also means traveling. That's why apprentices need to follow their male master to travel, say from Jerusalem to the great libraries in Greece or Rome. If you have a beautiful daughter, would you ask her to travel with a male master, and occasionally on dangerous roads, or even like Paul facing being killed by the fanatic Jews in Philippi?

Under the circumstances, you need men to do the job. The 12 are supposed to be eyewitnesses of Jesus' deeds and speeches. They need to travel with Him here and there for His deeds with miracles to reach the public and thus for testimonies to spread effectively as planned.

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

So what would be the rationalization that explains the early church itself having not had a single woman as a bishop/presbyter, elder, or even deacon assistant? And that this, including the qualifications needed to hold such a position, is testified to in the New Testament as well as by ordinary history.

None of these people was/is expected to travel to foreign lands, etc.

Hawkins · Jan 22, 2020

Albion said:
So what would be the rationalization that explains the early church itself having not had a single woman as a bishop/presbyter, elder, or even deacon assistant? And that this, including the qualifications needed to hold such a position, is testified to in the New Testament as well as by ordinary history.

None of these people was/is expected to travel to foreign lands, etc.

The same issue may exist. Early churches have 5 main locations from Rome to Palestine to Egypt.

Ronald · Jan 22, 2020

Monksailor said:
For the number of primary group members of 12 I offer this:

"What Does the Number 12 Mean in the Bible?
Number 12, as indicated in this article, typically means perfection or authority—often used in a context of government. For instance, because Jacob has 12 sons, they form the 12 tribes of Israel. There are also 12 minor prophets that dot the text of the Old Testament.

Found 187 times in the Bible, the number 12 makes a special appearance in Revelation, showing the authority and perfection of God’s kingdom at last.

We see Jesus chose 12 disciples, and the disciples later replaced Judas Iscariot with Matthias to keep the number at 12 (Acts 1)—to show the perfection and authority of those who followed Jesus.

Similar to the number three, it’s likely not every instance of the number 12 is a ‘good’ kind of perfection. Jesus heals a woman who had been bleeding for 12 years, for instance (Matthew 9:20-22). The 12 years could possibly symbolize just how bad her condition was, signifying the malady as a ‘perfect storm,’ with seemingly no possible cure. Or, it could signify that this was completion of a difficult timeframe and God would be doing a new thing now.

However, 12, more often than not, tends to represent something good. The new Jerusalem, for instance, is stocked full of the number 12 (gates, angels, foundations, etc., Revelation 21)." (pasted from: Interesting Facts about the Meaning & Importance of the Number 12 in the Bible)

For the 12 all being men, so far yet, history not having been rewritten here, yet. Jesus clearly loved and cherished woman and did not hesitate to dialog with them, even against extreme cultural taboo, Samaritan woman at the well. He, CLEARLY, was not allowing culture to dictate His choices concerning woman. I do not think the Bible tells us why so I cannot say; but it appears to definitely be an an intentional choosing of all being men as it is also clear that there were many woman followers whom He loved also constantly and faithfully in His midst.

Excellent post. God chose this before the foundation of the earth. He even put a constellation in the heavens to solidify his plan. REV. 12:1 not only symbolically represents, The woman, (ISRAEL or some would say the Virgin Mary), a crown of 12 stars around her head (12 tribes) , giving birth to a child, (JESUS); but this is also a literal rare constellation that just happened to appear around the time of Jesus birth and recently. It is the actually constellation Virgo, with stars of Leo and the king planet, Jupiter which moves across the sky and enters into what appears to be the womb of Virgo, circles around for 9 months , then exists out the birth canal if you will. This was very likely the star that the Magi followed.
So, it was written in the stars - a good answer to this whole story.

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

Hawkins said:
The same issue may exist. Early churches have 5 main locations from Rome to Palestine to Egypt.

How can "the same issue" exist?

As I understood your post, your point was that there was a practical reason for Christ not having any women among the Twelve Apostles, and that this had to do with the dangers women might experience while travelling the roads, which you said were never safe, etc. And the idea that a parish pastor by any name or title had to journey from Antioch to Rome or Alexandria simply isn't true.

Hawkins · Jan 22, 2020

Albion said:
How can "the same issue" exist?

As I understood your post, your point was that there was a practical reason for Christ not having any women among the Twelve Apostles, and that this had to do with the dangers women might experience while travelling the roads, which you said were never safe, etc. And the idea that a parish pastor by any name or title had to journey from Antioch to Rome or Alexandria simply isn't true.

You need to, or else the doctrine will never sync. 5 main locations plus a lot a minor sites spreading from Rome to Greece to Minor Asia to Palestine to Egypt. Leaders need to travel, Paul did anyway. Peter also did, James seems to remain in Jerusalem though. Paul actually planned to travel to Spain before he's jailed. The 12 traveled to the different places to martyr themselves.

That's how the gospel spread so fast in the 1st and 2nd centuries.

Gregorikos · Jan 22, 2020

Albion said:
So what would be the rationalization that explains the early church itself having not had a single woman as a bishop/presbyter, elder, or even deacon assistant? And that this, including the qualifications needed to hold such a position, is testified to in the New Testament as well as by ordinary history.

None of these people was/is expected to travel to foreign lands, etc.

Actually Phoebe was a deacon in the church in Cenchreae, and apparently carried the letter of Romans from Corinth to Rome. Romans 16:2

Romans 16 lists at least 10 women, along with 17 men, who would have been leaders at some level.

Paul also mentions several people as "coworkers", many of them women: Priscilla, Aquila, Urbanus, and Timothy (Rom. 16:3, 9, 21); Paul and Apollos as coworkers of God (1 Cor. 3:9); Stephanas and his household ( 1 Cor. 16:16); Silas, Timothy and Paul as coworkers with the Corinthians, and Titus (2 Cor. 1:24; 8:23); Epaphroditus, Euodia, Syntyche, and Clement (Phil. 2:25; 4:3); Philemon, Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke (Philem. 1:1, 24).

bling · Jan 22, 2020

Luke 24: 10 Now it was Mary Mag′dalene and Jo-an′na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles; 11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them.

At the time witness under the Old Law were men.

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

Hawkins said:
You need to, or else the doctrine will never sync. 5 main locations plus a lot a minor sites spreading from Rome to Greece to Minor Asia to Palestine to Egypt. Leaders need to travel, Paul did anyway.

Just a moment there. You are saying that the local deacon has to travel to Rome or Antioch, etc. This is just not so. It's guesswork gone wrong.

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

Gregorikos said:
Actually Phoebe was a deacon in the church in Cenchreae, and apparently carried the letter of Romans from Corinth to Rome. Romans 16:2

Phoebe was what we call a deaconess. The word deacon means a servant, which obviously i snot gender-related. But the churches had two different kinds of servants, deacons and deaconesses, and the duties of each and the authority of each were and are still today in some denominations entirely different. Deaconesses are not ordained; (male) deacons are. Deaconesses do not conduct worship; deacons do. Deaconesses were needed in order to tutor women and girls, prepare them for baptism (which was conducted in the nude in the early days), and so on.

Romans 16 lists at least 10 women, along with 17 men, who would have been leaders at some level.

"Leaders" is not the issue. Ordained clergy, as described and named in the New Testament, is what I was referring to.

As a matter of fact, the truth of the statement that women were leaders in various respects, BUT NOT as ordained clergy, only serves to verify the point that the specific policy was not to suppress women or keep them from harm or any other of those theories that people conjure up, but that it was based on the early church's understanding of Christ's intention concerning the successors of the Apostles.

1213 · Jan 22, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice...

I believe he chose those who will be the best for the job. And by what the Bible tells, it is not necessary a gender issue.

But, I think there are differences between men and women. And men are often better to some things and women better to other things. That people are different doesn’t mean they are not as valuable humans.

Gregorikos · Jan 22, 2020

Albion said:
"Leaders" is not the issue. Ordained clergy, as described and named in the New Testament, is what I was referring to.

As a matter of fact, the truth of the statement that women were leaders in various respects, BUT NOT as ordained clergy, only serves to verify the point that the specific policy was not to suppress women or keep them from harm or any other of those theories that people conjure up, but that it was based on the early church's understanding of Christ's intention concerning the successors of the Apostles.

How many men can you name that meet the criteria of "ordained clergy" so named and described in the New Testament?

joshua 1 9 · Jan 22, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

I have been looking at the two scriptures that deal with this quite a bit lately. "14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression." (1Timothy2:14) In verse 12 we read: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man" In Genesis 3:18 we see: "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” This is part of the curse that the man is to rule over the women. Jesus actually became a curse for us so that we could inherit or receive the blessing of God. At first there was 70 disciples then this number was reduced to 12 even if Judas did betray Jesus as David predicted 1,000 years before the event happened. There were also 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 gates into the city of Jerusalem. As far as the customs in the "Jewish" faith we can look at the movie Yentel.

There is a difference between male and female, but some people believe that one became two so that they could be joined back together again and become two. Jesus came to be a servant, just as the man is to serve the women. Although the relationships in the church are mother father, son daughter, brother sister. Husband and wife are still brother & sister.

joshua 1 9 · Jan 22, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
If He was 'gender blind' why did He appoint 12 men?

12 was all that remained after the 70 (58) left Him.

bekkilyn · Jan 22, 2020

Albion said:
Phoebe was what we call a deaconess.

Actually, Phoebe was a diakonos the same exact word used for the men. And none of the original seven diakonos were Gentiles, but many non-Jewish men seem to like to ignore that particular qualification, using various double-standards in order to attempt to "prove" their own superiority over women.

It is only the patriarchal tradition (as the church became more and more infiltrated by stoics and platonists) that assumes Phoebe had some lesser role than the men entirely based on the outer shape of her appearance.

Hawkins · Jan 22, 2020

Albion said:
Just a moment there. You are saying that the local deacon has to travel to Rome or Antioch, etc. This is just not so. It's guesswork gone wrong.

it's more about how they became deacons, and how churches were built in the different areas. It's rather speculations instead of guesswork. Churches didn't come from no where, and with the correct doctrine. It's early fathers' effort, perhaps untold with details though. And even Catholics won't be able to keep full documents about early churches. They don't keep even the early Canonical books. Guess why!

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

Gregorikos said:
How many men can you name that meet the criteria of "ordained clergy" so named and described in the New Testament?

I knew someone was going to say that. :doh:

As has been explained many times before, a term like "ordained clergy" is not Biblical language but it is what is said today, just like a hundred other terms we churchmen and women use to refer to something that is in the Bible. I'll spare you a long list of them.

But when I say "ordained clergy" instead of, say, "minister" or "pastor" or something similar, I am referring to bishops, elders, presbyters, deacons, etc., ALL OF WHICH TERMS ARE in Scripture.

These are the ministers, duly called, installed, and functioning in the assemblies/congregations/parishes of the church...and have been so since the beginning. I hoped that I could use two words instead of eleven or so and everyone who attends a church and knows that someone is officiating during the worship service would understand what was being said.

JackRT · Jan 22, 2020

Gregorikos said:
There were more women that followed Jesus than the 3. Luke 8:3 says, "and many others." The phrase many others and the relative pronoun "who" are both feminine in Greek, referring to women who supported Jesus and his disciples. I take "many" to be at a minimum 3, so that would be at least 6-8 women in Jesus' entourage.

And comparing Luke 8:2-3 with Matthew 27:55-56, Luke 23:49,55 and Mark 15:40-41 it appears these same women followed him from town to town through most of his ministry.

I have always wondered why the Last Supper is portrayed as male only when it was a Passover meal, an intensely family affair. Who prepared and served the meal before sitting down with the men?

Albion · Jan 22, 2020

Hawkins said:
it's more about how they became deacons, and how churches were built in the different areas. It's rather speculations instead of guesswork. Churches didn't come from no where, and with the correct doctrine. It's early fathers' effort, perhaps untold with details though.

That's still not accurate. When a person is or was made a deacon or presbyter or bishop, they did not travel across the Roman Empire to one of the several centers of the early church in Rome or Jerusalem or Alexandria, nor is that what is done today.

If such a claim is meant as some way to save the argument that of course women couldn't be made clergy simply because they would have to travel the unsafe roads, that is flatly incorrect.

Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

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