Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

jimmyjimmy

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

This is such basic stuff, understood by all, until about 5 minutes ago (historically speaking).

God established Patriarchy (father-rule) and that's what we ought to support, if we care at all about His design and decree.
 
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Carl Emerson

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No one has mentioned that if it was a cultural choice, the practice of appointing female priests in Pagan religious practice was common and well known.

This would suggest specific Jewish tradition was being followed.

This begs the question that if Israel was chosen to make known His Glory and Laws to the world, as scripture records, it was also a deliberate choice to appoint only men as priests in the temple unlike other nations. It would seem this was a deliberate point of difference.

So at least initially the Church followed this Jewish tradition.
 
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Carl Emerson

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This is such basic stuff, understood by all, until about 5 minutes ago (historically speaking).

God established Patriarchy (father-rule) and that's what we ought to support, if we care at all about His design and decree.


How does this approach sit with...

Galatians 3:

…27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.…
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.
I think that if He wanted us to know, He would have told us.

It reminds me of a story about a young believer asking a mature, experienced preacher the question about what was God doing before He created the universe. The preacher replied, "He was constructing hell for over-curious people!"
 
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DNB

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.
Hi Carl, yes, there is a very distinct and profound, functional difference between that of a man, and that of a woman.
First of all, fundamentally speaking, woman came from man, and was created for him.
Secondly, all the Levitical Priests, the Judges, the Monarchy, and the 13 lead Apostles were all men (Matthias & Judas make 13). The exceptions of Deborah and Athalia, and the circumstances around them, do not undermine the over-arching theme of a patriarchal hierarchy throughout the entire Bible.

Paul was extremely explicit, emphatic, and fundamental in his discourse on male leadership in the Church, and at home. He described Christ as the head of man, and man as the head of woman. He insisted on women being submissive to their husbands. And, he disallowed women to have authority over a man in the Church, and to teach.

One should not even need to address the allegation that these fearless and defiant men, were ever influenced by the standards of the society in which they lived. For, not only were they as rebellious to the conventions of the world as one could be (even unto death), but they constantly denounced the wisdom and standards of the world, as being at enmity with God. These men were not frivolous in their thoughts, nor influenced or intimidated by cultural norms and people's opinions.
 
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GaveMeJoy

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The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that it emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was simply part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himself seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.


Full disclosure: I’m a man so my perspective is subject to my
Own gender bias.

while I strongly disagree with your assertion that Paul was not the author of the epistles referenced, I greatly appreciate your response regarding the absolute spiritual and intellectual equality of women to men. I believe that any >man< who doesn’t START a discussion on this topic with similar sentiments—regarding equality in ability and value to the Lord—is in danger of coming off as speaking from gender bias and attributing it to the holy scriptures and the Lord which is exceedingly dangerous in my opinion.

I believe a case can be made from scripture that there are some limitations regarding female preachers and elders, as there are several clear verses that seem to indicate this. However, I could never say that an opinion in either direction is clearly correct, as there is and will always be some level of ambiguity until we all meet Jesus in the end.

anyone who causes disunity, or makes a woman feel less valued, appreciated, or spiritual is in danger of discipline from Jesus. I know I wouldn’t want someone talking about my daughter like that—imagine what Christ feels about men speaking about his daughters in this way.
 
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DNB

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How does this approach sit with...

Galatians 3:

…27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.…
Completely unrelated. For the first 2 chapters Paul is addressing the Judiazers, and his whole discourse is in context to this main point, i.e. one does not need to be a Jew to be saved. THus, he merely cites a few dichotomies to express the range and gamut of who is eligible for salvation. He could've included, young & old, short & tall, rich & poor, jocks & suits, etc... For, let's face it, if there is no gender difference anymore in God's eyes, does this mean that homosexuality is not recognized and denounced by him anymore, ...obviously not. Egalitarians take this pericope completely out of context, it's solely about the universal eligibility for redemption, in contrast to the Jews demanding observance of the Law.
For, in Colossians 3:11, he makes the same point but excludes the juxtaposition between men & women. Showing how incidental to his point that the specific comparisons were, it was the range that he was trying to convey.
 
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d taylor

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If the Bible does not answer, then a person can go no further. If they do all they are doing is applying conjecture.

Either post verses that address this or at least give an idea. Other wise bringing in a modern political or social view point answers nothing.
 
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Monksailor

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God does not inform us in His Word why He chose all men; how valid is SPECULATION and CONJECTURE??? It may exercise the brain but to what end?

This contemplation is as valid is why did God curse all of mankind because of/through Adam when he wasn't the first or the one who was beguiled by the serpent and we may not be informed how in totality Eve got Adam to disobey God along with her, maybe Eve beguiled Adam, even more grounds to blame Eve; but God, we place blame on man, Adam.

God does what He wants to do. We do not need to understand and we are told in the Bible that there is MUCH that we will not understand. Accept it.
 
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Gregorikos

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For the number of primary group members of 12 I offer this:

"What Does the Number 12 Mean in the Bible?
Number 12, as indicated in this article, typically means perfection or authority—often used in a context of government. For instance, because Jacob has 12 sons, they form the 12 tribes of Israel. There are also 12 minor prophets that dot the text of the Old Testament.

Found 187 times in the Bible, the number 12 makes a special appearance in Revelation, showing the authority and perfection of God’s kingdom at last.

We see Jesus chose 12 disciples, and the disciples later replaced Judas Iscariot with Matthias to keep the number at 12 (Acts 1)—to show the perfection and authority of those who followed Jesus.

Similar to the number three, it’s likely not every instance of the number 12 is a ‘good’ kind of perfection. Jesus heals a woman who had been bleeding for 12 years, for instance (Matthew 9:20-22). The 12 years could possibly symbolize just how bad her condition was, signifying the malady as a ‘perfect storm,’ with seemingly no possible cure. Or, it could signify that this was completion of a difficult timeframe and God would be doing a new thing now.

However, 12, more often than not, tends to represent something good. The new Jerusalem, for instance, is stocked full of the number 12 (gates, angels, foundations, etc., Revelation 21)." (pasted from: Interesting Facts about the Meaning & Importance of the Number 12 in the Bible)

For the 12 all being men, so far yet, history not having been rewritten here, yet. Jesus clearly loved and cherished woman and did not hesitate to dialog with them, even against extreme cultural taboo, Samaritan woman at the well. He, CLEARLY, was not allowing culture to dictate His choices concerning woman. I do not think the Bible tells us why so I cannot say; but it appears to definitely be an an intentional choosing of all being men as it is also clear that there were many woman followers whom He loved also constantly and faithfully in His midst.

There is no sense in making much ado over the number 12. Adding Paul made 13 Apostles and now your argument is moot.

And there were more apostles than that. Barnabas (Ac 14:14), James the Lord’s brother (Gal 1:19) and Andronicus and Junia (Ro 16:7). That makes 17 apostles named in the New Testament, one of them a woman.

But that doesn't answer the question of why the initial 12 were men. There were two reasons. One was that the 12 apostles represented the 12 sons of Israel, which were all men. Matthew 19:28

The second was practical. The testimony of women in that culture was irrelevant. As a practical matter, the biases would have been very difficult to overcome. So the principal that the people most fit for the task (most gifted) were given the responsibility.
 
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Gregorikos

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This is such basic stuff, understood by all, until about 5 minutes ago (historically speaking).

God established Patriarchy (father-rule) and that's what we ought to support, if we care at all about His design and decree.

Patriarchy was first mentioned in Genesis 3:16. Whether that was God establishing it, or merely predicting it, either way it is a result of mankind's fallen nature and came to us with the other curses that resulted from that fall, not God's design. Of everything that came with the fall, there isn't a single thing we try to hang on to as something good that God established. And we shouldn't hang on to this one either.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Patriarchy was first mentioned in Genesis 3:16. Whether that was God establishing it, or merely predicting it, either way it is a result of mankind's fallen nature and came to us with the other curses that resulted from that fall, not God's design. Of everything that came with the fall, there isn't a single thing we try to hang on to as something good that God established. And we shouldn't hang on to this one either.

Firstly, God's design in creation has patriarch intentional built-in. "For Adam was formed first, then Eve." 1 Tim 2:13

Secondly, do you know of any childbirths that are pain-free?
 
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Monksailor

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There is no sense in making much ado over the number 12. Adding Paul made 13 Apostles and now your argument is moot.

And there were more apostles than that. Barnabas (Ac 14:14), James the Lord’s brother (Gal 1:19) and Andronicus and Junia (Ro 16:7). That makes 17 apostles named in the New Testament, one of them a woman.

But that doesn't answer the question of why the initial 12 were men. There were two reasons. One was that the 12 apostles represented the 12 sons of Israel, which were all men. Matthew 19:28

The second was practical. The testimony of women in that culture was irrelevant. As a practical matter, the biases would have been very difficult to overcome. So the principal that the people most fit for the task (most gifted) were given the responsibility.

REALLY!!!???
 
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DNB

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Patriarchy was first mentioned in Genesis 3:16. Whether that was God establishing it, or merely predicting it, either way it is a result of mankind's fallen nature and came to us with the other curses that resulted from that fall, not God's design. Of everything that came with the fall, there isn't a single thing we try to hang on to as something good that God established. And we shouldn't hang on to this one either.
Patriarchy was first mentioned in Genesis 2:18, and this was by design, not consequence of a transgression.
2:18. The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
 
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DNB

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There is no sense in making much ado over the number 12. Adding Paul made 13 Apostles and now your argument is moot.

And there were more apostles than that. Barnabas (Ac 14:14), James the Lord’s brother (Gal 1:19) and Andronicus and Junia (Ro 16:7). That makes 17 apostles named in the New Testament, one of them a woman.

But that doesn't answer the question of why the initial 12 were men. There were two reasons. One was that the 12 apostles represented the 12 sons of Israel, which were all men. Matthew 19:28

The second was practical. The testimony of women in that culture was irrelevant. As a practical matter, the biases would have been very difficult to overcome. So the principal that the people most fit for the task (most gifted) were given the responsibility.
Yes, you're right, the timid apostles were extremely daunted by the biases of society. How difficult that it would have been for such feeble and conforming men, to overcome such sentiments by those around them.
It's a shame that neither the Holy Spirit, nor just wisdom, could get them to overcome their trepidation and pretentiousness.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.
Who were subsequent apostles, you say in the "early church"? I admit to none but the 12, minus Judas plus Paul.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.
This brings to mind a discussion in my church about allowing women to teach or even to distribute the bread and wine. I told the other elders, whether or not it is right that they should otherwise be permitted the duty, the fact of the seriousness of the duty, combined with the even now considered position of women vs men in the question may bring to mind a stumbling and distraction from the purpose of the duty. But that was nearly twenty years ago.

For what it is worth, I have a real problem with the notion that the model shown by the early church is a model SET by the early church. Are we also to all live communistically?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

While there were many apostles, Jesus did select twelve as a matter of significance. Twelve apostles because twelve tribes of Israel.

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" - Matthew 19:28

The significance shouldn't be lost, in Christ and what He was doing He was birthing a new significance from the old--the Israel of old becoming the Israel of new. All which came before finding its fullness and meaning in Him and what He was doing. And so by calling the twelve, and from them establishing His Church, He is not merely pouring new wine into old wineskins, but new wine into new wineskins.

Now, again, there were more apostles than just the Twelve. That should be easily seen in the fact that St. Paul was an apostle. But further, Scripture mentions a number of people, both men and women, called apostles: Barnabas, Silas, Apollos, Andronicus, and Junia are all explicitly referred to as apostles. The historic tradition of the Christian Church remembers many, and also has remembered some who if not apostles proper are remembered as apostles at least by honor, such as St. Mary Magdalene who has been known as the Apostle to the Apostles and Equal-to-the-Apostles. Later figures have also been given apostolic honorifics, St. Patrick is remembered as Apostle to the Irish, Sts. Methodius and Cyril are remembered as Apostles to the Slavs, St. Boniface as Apostle to the Germans.

So it would be wrong to think only the Twelve are apostles, as there were many apostles both apostles proper as well as those remembered as apostolic by honor. And there's no discrimination between men and women, as again there were female apostles and women who are of apostolic honor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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When we talk about the Apostolic office, it touches on God's creation, the state of the world after the fall, God's redemptive work, and the Church. It's not to do with cultural or political issues.

The twelve apostles correspond to the twelve patriarchs with their twelve tribes of Israel. That is, Israel, by divine will, were to bring forth the Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ, and He is our cornerstone, with the apostles, by divine will, as the foundation of our faith. So, the Church is built upon the teachings and examples of the apostles and Christ - that is, the very Word of God.

The word "apostle" can be understood to mean "sent" or "the one who is sent". In Christian usage, this means one who is sent by God; a messenger or ambassador. In the NT, "apostle" is used in a broad sense to mean anyone who rightly proclaims the Gospel in God's name, sent by the Church. This would be evangelists, missionaries, priests/pastors and deacons in a broad sense. However, in its narrow sense, it typically means the Twelve. "Apostle" in this narrow sense comes with very clear conditions as found in Acts 1:21-25. That is, they (1) had to be with Christ in His entire earthly ministry, from the beginning of the baptism of John. (2) They had to be eyewitnesses of Christ's resurrection. (3) They had to be divinely sent.

Now, there has been some controversy about how Paul fits into the role of an apostle, given that the office specified above in its narrow sense would have excluded Paul. Some have suggested that Paul was meant to take the place of Judas. Personally, I believe that this situation is comparable to the order of the Levities and the order of Melchizedek - that is, the priesthood belongs to Israel, but at the same time it is outside of it, in the person of Christ. Or in other words, God is the God of Israel, but He is also the God of us, the gentiles. I'm of the belief that this is reflected in the Twelve and Paul, as Paul is the apostle to us, the gentiles. So, Paul is the least but the greatest apostle at the same time.

The apostles (and the Levitical priesthood, and Jesus Christ, for that matter) were men, not for cultural reasons. Paul explains this to Timothy when he talks about the pastoral office, which is an extension of the apostolic office. That is, the priest/pastor is to speak the same message the apostles spoke: the full counsel of God's Word; God's Law and Gospel. In 1 Timothy 2 we have Paul's famous line: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." Many in our day sadly take this verse out of context and speculate why Paul said this, and conclude that it was for local and cultural reasons. But Paul in the very next verse explains why. He says: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." We can be assured that this is not for cultural reasons, but deeply theological. It has to do with two things: (1) God's creation before the fall, and (2) the relationship between man and woman after the fall, as a consequence of our sin.

God created man and woman of equal value but opposite. The Hebrew word "ishah", "woman", means something to the effect of "same but opposite", "counterpart" or "helper". Perhaps the best way to think of it is that man and woman are both made in the image of God and they are made complementary to one another. Woman is not of lesser value or of lower status than man. Yet, man was made from God, and woman was made from man. There’s a beautiful picture of how man is sacrificed to give life to the woman. It’s like Christ giving up Himself for His bride, the Church. Sacrifice is in the very heart of marriage and it’s on the part of man. After the fall, however, the relationship between God, man and woman is broken. Because of sin, mankind no longer loves, fears or trusts in God. To the woman, God said: "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." To man, God said: "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it’, cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life"

For this reason, then, apostles were men: In a pre-fall sense, because it reflects God's institution of family and His relationship with us. And in a post-fall sense, because after the fall, woman is subject to man. However, the latter is temporary and conquered by the person and works of Jesus Christ.

The bottom line is, that all the apostles are men is not for cultural reasons nor by accident, but it serves to point to God's grace. We can understand this if we properly understand God's design of man and woman, and Christ as the bridegroom and the Church as His bride. Simply speaking, everything God does He works for the good of those who are called according to His purpose.
 
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