Number One Flaw in Cessationism

JAL said:

You can call it 'eradication' (my term) or 'cessation' (your term) - terminology isn't the issue here.
Um...that would spell the eradication/cessation of the telephone. Just like I said. Look, are you going to talk to your brothers in heaven? If so, will the Spirit ever help to guide what you say? That's prophecy.
You're not making any sense. The prophets already DID hear God's voice directly.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If this passage is foretelling an eschatological cessation, then knowledge should cease.

Since your reading doesn't make sense, you are forced to produce vague analogies that aren't clear and don't really fit.

My reading provides a more seamless fit for Paul's words. But since you've already decided to stick with an implausible reading, there's nothing I can do about it.

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I am not sure Heaven is like that. Heaven is described as being full of all knowledge. Answers to all questions. When Christ returns one thing He will do, according to the Bible, is explain why His just judgements are fair, in full.

In the Gospel, Jesus says that when He returns, that it will not be that He is here or there, but it will be as lightning, with east and west lit up all at once. Light is like God. It gives understanding.

I try to explain myself to you in part because, I don't want to be all alone and unable to communicate with others.

There will be a focal point of source, and one lot of light. I think so. We don't exactly know. So I could suppose people will look up to a great light that is supernatural. They won't have another source of supernatural knowing. But the wisdom with from learning and from Isaiah 11:2 if they already have that will be theirs automatically as usual.

When Christ returns, knowledge will increase beyond the degree and pace of the spiritual gift. Probably faster and surer than speech.

GoldenKingGaze said:

I am not sure Heaven is like that. Heaven is described as being full of all knowledge...When Christ returns, knowledge will increase beyond the degree and pace of the spiritual gift. Probably faster and surer than speech.

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Um...that would be an increase of knowlege (a maturation) - not a cessation.

JAL said:

Paul's analogy is a babe maturing into a man. The opposite of a babe (immaturity) is manhood (maturity). Thus until then we know "in part". This is quantitative. The babe doesn't CEASE from knowing, rather his manhood amounts to knowing (quantitatively) more than before. This is seamless.

In your reading, the opposite of a babe (imperfection) is supposedly manhood (perfection) - ???? That doesn't make sense. In real life, nobody defines the transition from infancy to manhood as a change from imperfection to absolute perfection.

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I like the scene with Ian McCormack just receiving the revelation of God's unconditional love before Christ. I agree perfection goes well beyond that into the great light and love of God, as tradition holds, into glorification.

JAL said:

Um...that would be an increase of knowlege (a maturation) - not a cessation.

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Maturation with Christ present, the gift from 1 Cor 12 would cease with tongues in the event.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Maturation with Christ present, the gift from 1 Cor 12 would cease with tongues in the event.

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The maturing of something isn't a cessation of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

JAL said:

The maturing of something isn't a cessation of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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Then I do not think the gift will mature but be replaced.

Paul's analogy is a babe maturing into a man.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Then I do not think the gift will mature but be replaced.

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Anything replaced has come to a cessation instead of maturing. The passage anticipates a transition from knowing "in part" to knowing in full. That's maturation, not cessation.

JAL said:

Paul's analogy is a babe maturing into a man.
Anything replaced has come to a cessation instead of maturing. The passage anticipates a transition from knowing "in part" to knowing in full. That's maturation, not cessation.

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Knowing in part is by sacred scripture and the gifts, and knowing in full, is by Christ second coming and great light.

Each prophecy and word of knowledge is a gift. The nature of the gifting is unit by unit.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Knowing in part is by sacred scripture and the gifts, and knowing in full, is by Christ second coming and great light.

Each prophecy and word of knowledge is a gift. The nature of the gifting is unit by unit.

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By alluding to our eschatological perfection, you seem to be avoiding the obvious connotations of the passage. The word "telios" can either refer to "mature" or "perfect". When a babe transitions to a man, do we normally understand this to mean:

(1) "The babe has now transitioned into a state of perfection"
(2) "The babe has now transitioned into a state of maturity"

Doesn't #2 capture the usual sense of the expression?

GoldenKingGaze said:

Knowing in part is by sacred scripture and the gifts, and knowing in full, is by Christ second coming and great light.

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(1) Knowing in part refers to the gift of knowledge.
(2) But knowing in full does NOT refer to the gift of knowledge? You've gratuitously invented a new way of knowing called "a great light"? But let's cut to the chase here. Supernaturally endued knowledge, even if you call it a "great light", IS precisely the definition of the gift of knowledge. That's not a cessation. It's a maturation. You're trying to force discontinuity into the text, contrary to the continuity implied by the maturation of "knowing in part" to "knowing in full". That's a quantitative increase - it's not a cessation.

You'll continue to deny the clear sense of the passage. Nothing I can do about it.

Had Paul WANTED to indicate 2 different kinds of knowing, he could have
(1) Foresook the babe-analogy
(2) And used different terms.

For instance he could have said, "Now we know in earthly ways, then in heaven we will know in spiritual ways".

Or something to that effect. He made no such qualitative distinctions, instead he made a quantitative distinction (viz. "in part").

And lest it be lost upon you, let's bear in mind that the epistle was written to address and correct the Corinthian immaturity implicit in chapter 2 (see verse 6) and explicit in chapter 3. He call them babes. He implied their need to mature. Hebrews 5 made the same kinds of distinctions.

JAL said:

By alluding to our eschatological perfection, you seem to be avoiding the obvious connotations of the passage. The word "telios" can either refer to "mature" or "perfect". When a babe transitions to a man, do we normally understand this to mean:

(1) "The babe has now transitioned into a state of perfection"
(2) "The babe has now transitioned into a state of maturity"

Doesn't #2 capture the usual sense of the expression?


(1) Knowing in part refers to the gift of knowledge.
(2) But knowing in full does NOT refer to the gift of knowledge? You've gratuitously invented a new way of knowing called "a great light"? But let's cut to the chase here. Supernaturally endued knowledge, even if you call it a "great light", IS precisely the definition of the gift of knowledge. That's not a cessation. It's a maturation. You're trying to force discontinuity into the text, contrary to the continuity implied by the maturation of "knowing in part" to "knowing in full". That's a quantitative increase - it's not a cessation.

You'll continue to deny the clear sense of the passage. Nothing I can do about it.

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Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

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I don't see anything relevant to our specific debate.

JAL said:

I don't see anything relevant to our specific debate.

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Jesus draws one's thoughts to a great light that shines across the world when He returns. So I refer to the like lightning passage. I don't mean to debate wholeheartedly, or there is need for another thread solely on this topic.

Everyone will be on their knees, before the Lord. All gifted or not will behold the Christ and perfect Truth. Philippians.

I think of 1 Thessalonians 2:8
And the end of 2 Corinthians 3 and beginning of 4
by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I am a continuationist, and think that tongues will cease when Christ returns to the Earth in glory. I think this is perfection of revelation of God and not maturation of gifts.

From the face of Christ comes perfection outweighing any spiritual gift. Visible to the whole world of people.

GoldenKingGaze said:

I am a continuationist, and think that tongues will cease when Christ returns to the Earth in glory. I think this is perfection of revelation of God and not maturation of gifts.

From the face of Christ comes perfection outweighing any spiritual gift. Visible to the whole world of people.

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So from the conclusion of 1 Corinthians 13, do you interpret Paul as saying, when tongues finally cease, faith, hope and charity will still abide?

Guojing said:

So from the conclusion of 1 Corinthians 13, do you interpret Paul as saying, when tongues finally cease, faith, hope and charity will still abide?

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Yes, I suppose when you see God, you do not need so much faith and hope but love, you'll feel it like sunlight.

jimmyjimmy said:

If I wanted to prove all of these signs and wonders happened, I would video them.

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In answer to your question, why would I film my prayer life if it is between GOD and I?

You do understand that the gift of tongues operates two different ways in scripture,....personal prayer and corporate speaking, right? So why would I video my prayer life to place in front of everyone when it is meant to be between GOD and I in secret?

Why are you asking Christians to go against scripture??

CharismaticLady said:

Please explain how the devout Jews listening could understands what the disciples were saying in tongues without contradicting 1 Corinthians 14:2. Thanks

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Let me help you out.

Notice what Peter said,....

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day:
Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did Joel say speak in tongues? No, GOD spoke through him of prophesying.

Prophesying happens two ways according to scripture, through the use of the gift of prophesying, and through the corporate use of the gift of tongues with interpretation.

This was the beginning of the church in Acts 2. This was the first corporate assembly of the body of Christ, and The Holy Spirit started operating all the gifts that were poured out, which included the gift of interpretation. So if people heard human languages being spoken by GOD, then it was by those two methods, not through the use of tongues.

1Cor14:2 is not some sort of later addition that The Holy Spirit decided to start following, it is applicable across scripture.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Yes, I suppose when you see God, you do not need so much faith and hope but love, you'll feel it like sunlight.

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If you believe that, then why believe that "the perfect" refers to the 2nd coming?