Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

sovereigngrace said:

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus!

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BABerean2 said:

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus!

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BABerean2 said:

The Son remained seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD.
He did not return to planet earth in the same way that He left in Acts of the Apostles 1:11

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Jesus isn't God to you?!

That was the very point Jesus was making to the ancient Jews - that He is God...the anticipated and expected Messiah.

We've had this discussion here: 2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

sovereigngrace said:

As a Trinitarian I see them both as distinct yet one. When Christ was in the grave, the Father began pouring out His wrath upon Jerusalem by first shaking the city of Jerusalem with a major earthquake, and then rendering their temple redundant by cutting their curtain in two.

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John 10:29-30 - My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

John 5:19 - So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

Do you also go by the account of BaBerean? Sorry if you don't, it's just as mkgal pointed out, your discussion style is very similar.

sovereigngrace said:

I have relayed my position, and you are not going to change me.

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Not here to change your mind. Most people involved in these debates have their minds already made up. Just posting for the benefit readers. I was raised as a futurist. I came upon this site when I was searching for answers. I didn't partake in discussions at first, I only read. Interestingly enough, it was the preterists who consistently provided scriptures and evidence to support their beliefs, while futurists continually side stepped, name called, avoided questions, falsely accused, and often provided no scripture for their beliefs.

So through our discussions, we provide evidence for different positions, so that those who are searching, can learn.

sovereigngrace said:

Your problem is: you are obsessed with the coming of Titus in AD70. That is all you see in the NT. This is both dangerous and erroneous.

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Another telling sign of weak futurist arguments. Keep making the same false argument over and over again.

If it's not false, please show the posts where I am obsessed with the coming of Titus and that, that is "all I see in the NT".

sovereigngrace said:

he rest of us who are not Full Preterists see Christ's past First Advent and future Second Advent as the center-point of history. This is the focus of Scripture!

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I view the cross as the eschatological fulfillment of the promises of God. For without the cross, there is no resurrection of the dead. That is my focal point.

Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

sovereigngrace said:

Do you believe the dead in Christ have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes literally physically visibly in the future to remove sin, sinners, death, corruption and Satan?

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I've already answered this, no?

I believe the resurrection of the Just and Unjust took place in 70ad. I believe the dead were physically raised from a natural body to spiritual body. I believe that from that point on, those whose natural body is sown is physically raised in a literal spiritual body to go home to be with the Lord .

As Amils believe that believers go home to be with the Lord upon death, its really not different than preterist believing believers go home to be with the Lord upon death.

sovereigngrace said:

Why do you keep avoiding the following?

Where the dead unjust raised up physically from the grave or only their souls in AD70? Do they have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes at the second coming?

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I assume the wicked are resurrected, as the scripture states they are. Now do they get the same body as the believer? I would doubt it. Do you believe the wicked get the same body as the believer?

Do you believe the body we receive is a spiritual body?

sovereigngrace said:

But you previously said Acts 24:15 is still future?

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Where did I say that?

I believe that Paul believed the resurrection of the just and unjust was "about to be" in the 1st century.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

claninja said:

I believe the resurrection of the Just and Unjust took place in 70ad. I believe the dead were physically raised from a natural body to spiritual body. I believe that from that point on, those whose natural body is sown is physically raised in a literal spiritual body to go home to be with the Lord .

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This is too close to full preterism. I cannot support you in this.

claninja said:

As Amils believe that believers go home to be with the Lord upon death, its really not different than preterist believing believers go home to be with the Lord upon death.

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It certainly is different. The usual understanding is that we reside consciously with God, and await the resurrection of our bodies.

claninja said:

I assume the wicked are resurrected, as the scripture states they are. Now do they get the same body as the believer? I would doubt it. Do you believe the wicked get the same body as the believer?

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The unbeliever will stand before God in his body in the future judgement. Whether his body is of the same quality, or if it lasts in eternal physical torment is another subject.

claninja said:

Do you believe the body we receive is a spiritual body?

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You are conflating a 'spirit' with a 'spiritual' body. A body is by definition not a spirit. Be careful that in your migration from futurism to preterism you don't pick up gnostic elements.

sovereigngrace said:

What do you mean "We've had this discussion here"?

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I mean all these exact points have been raised and discussed previously in that thread.

Christian Gedge said:

This is too close to full preterism. I cannot support you in this.

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No worries, Gedge. I know it's pretty close to full. I don't hold everything is fulfilled, as obviously we still live in a sinful world. and we still are in fleshly body as we type this. And I do disagree with a lot of full preterism doctrines.

Christian Gedge said:

It certainly is different. The usual understanding is that we reside consciously with God, and await the resurrection of our bodies.

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Why would we ascend to the Father prior to the resurrection, if Jesus didn't ascend to the Father until after the resurrection?

But, most agree that we go to heaven upon death, so I don't see a reason to debate on this too much.

Christian Gedge said:

The unbeliever will stand before God in his body in the future judgement. Whether his body is of the same quality, or if it lasts in eternal physical torment is another subject.

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Absolutely agree.

Christian Gedge said:

You are conflating a 'spirit' with a 'spiritual' body. A body is by definition not a spirit. Be careful that in your migration from futurism to preterism you don't pick up gnostic elements.

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I don't believe we will become spirits, so no I am not conflating that. I believe we are raised in a spiritual body, unlike are natural bodies as is clearly stated in scripture.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body

We are like the angels, which I assume have spiritual bodies.

sovereigngrace said:

You guys are honestly paranoid! I am obviously not the only one who sees the folly of the Full Preterist position. Yeahhh!!!

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No, it's just uncanny how similar your debate style is with BaBerean. Your sentences are even the same. But no worries, thanks for being honest.

sovereigngrace said:

I asked: "Do you believe the dead in Christ have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes literally physically visibly in the future to remove sin, sinners, death, corruption and Satan?"

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Correct, you did ask that. And I answered.#590.

sovereigngrace said:

Thank you for finally being honest. I have known that you and mkgal were Full Preterist for a while. You have ducked all the simple questions re this.

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Which part was I not honest about before for you to make such an accusation? Which questions specifically did I duck?

sovereigngrace said:

You advocate the “Hymenaean” heresy which is banned on this site. It doctrine is deeply disturbing and outside of the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

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sovereigngrace said:

What was their great error?

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Hymenaean taught the resurrection had already taken place, before the events of the olivet discourse, when we know from scripture that the resurrection of the just and unjust is associated with the events of the olivet discourse and Daniel 12. So of course they were wrong.

2 Timothy 2:18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened.

Daniel specifically associates the resurrection of the just and unjust with the time of the great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-2 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Christs tells us that "immediately" after the tribulation of Jerusalem, the son of man would send out his angels to gather the elect.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b ’At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.c And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Thus, anyone who dissociates the resurrection with the olivet discourse and the events of Daniel 12 commit a pretty similar error to that of Hymenaen.

sovereigngrace said:

The fact is: the resurrection will occur at the second coming!

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I agree

sovereigngrace said:

Please answer the question. It is not hard for those who are orthodox in their faith.

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I did in post post #590.

sovereigngrace said:

Words that are clear in their meaning and context, and which every unindoctrinated objective Bible student would quickly understand are spiritualized away to carry no literal or physical meaning.

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You mean Clear words like: Must Shortly come to pass, coming quickly, is about to happen, this generation shall not pass, in a very very little while, without delay...

Yeah i get the frustration with the spiritualizing away of these clear words into words that carry no literal or physical meaning....

oh. wait... I guess it's ok when THOSE words are spiritualized away into meaninglessness, right?

Passages that are expressly referring to the glorious climactic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ are lightly treated, swiftly dismissed and conveniently reapplied to the coming of Titus and relocated to 70 AD. No text seems safe from their extreme form of spiritualization of Scripture.

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When do you say this took place?:
Matthew 21:40-41
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Or are we still waiting for this to take place?

sovereigngrace said:

What was their great error?

2Ti 2:17-19: "And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Like you and mkgal, Hymenaeus and Philetus argued that the resurrection had already occurred. This was creating confusion with the Church. Confusion is not off the Lord, but the enemy. The fact is: the resurrection will occur at the second coming!

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Resurrection is a pattern of renewal. There are many references to different types of resurrections in the Bible. In order for something "new" to emerge.....something "old" has to die off. Remember this passage:


We, as Christians, are called to be "putting on the new self" (Eph 4:24) daily - and in order to do that - something has to die (selfishness; vindictiveness; fear; etc). That's a form of "resurrection" where new LIFE is emerging out of death.

As far as Hymenaeus and Philetus - as I've posted repeatedly - think about this. Paul never corrected them on the NATURE of the resurrection they'd been teaching had already occurred. What sort of resurrection would they have to be teaching about in order for people to be afraid they'd missed it? Would they be writing to Paul - a faithful servant of God - if they believed they missed a physical world-wide resurrection of bodies of the dead and living? How could they have missed that? Surely they fell into one of the categories of "living" or "dead"....."just" or "unjust".....right? What about Paul? Why would they write to Paul, if there were a genuine concern that they missed a physical resurrection? How can one be excluded from a resurrection of that nature? Wouldn't Paul have said something to correct the nature of their teaching (if that were their error)? Something like......"you will not need to be concerned about missing the general resurrection - EVERYONE is included in some way"? But Paul never corrected the nature of their spiritually-natured resurrection.

Until Jesus died on the cross - there was no way for the permanent forgiveness of sin. That's Orthodox. The early church conveyed it this way in the Victory of Christ theology:

Quoting from linked article: This is one of my favorite Eastern Orthodox icons. It is referred to as Christ’s Descent into Hades, Anastasis or Resurrection Icon. It is the primary icon of Pascha (Easter)

Some key features:

• Christ’s cape/robe is flowing upward, this symbolizes his radical descent into Hades to save those who have died in the flesh.
• The golden bars by his feet are the gates of Hades, which he has broken and torn apart. There are keys floating in the abyss below, which symbolizes that he has entered and conquered both death and Hades.
• You may also note the skeletal figure who is chained up: that is Death and/or Satan. He has been bound and killed by Christ, which is why all throughout Pascha we sing “Christ has trampled down death by death.” The icon depicts Hebrews 2:14, “that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil.” The power of the devil and death have been destroyed through the life-giving death of our Savior.
• The two figures whom Christ has grasped and is pulling from tombs are Adam and Eve, symbolizing that his victory redeems all mankind, even back to the beginning. It also foreshadows the general resurrection of the body before the Final Judgment.
• To the left, we see three characters: David and Solomon, two of his ancestors according to his fleshly nature. We also see, closest to him, John the Baptizer, who was his forerunner in both life and death.
• The figures on the right vary from icon to icon, but usually represent Old Testament prophets and saints such as Moses, Able as a shepherd, and the three youths who were thrown into the fiery furnace (Daniel 3).
• The blue shape around Christ is called the Mandorla (which is Italian for almond, which describes its shape). The Mandorla is the uncreated, eternal light of Christ. In the writings of the Eastern Orthodox mystics, God is often prayerfully experienced as light. This is not simply a pretty bright light. It is the same light which filled the apostles with wonder when they witnessed His Transfiguration. It is the light which Christ Himself described as the power of the Kingdom of God (Mark 9:1 Matt 16:28 Luke 9:27). It is the light that filled the once perpetual darkness of Hades when Christ descended and brought life into the realm of death. It is also the light that is seen when one purifies their heart and mind (Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.)
• The Mandorla becomes progressively darker as it moves toward its center, which is Christ. If God is represented by light, the Mandorla may seem confusing. However, those who seek God will find that the more they know Him, the less they comprehend Him. To know God, to experience Him, is to walk in the darkness of His light, to enter into the mystery of His presence.

One of the key things to remember is that icons are not meant to be “photo recordings” of what happened. These are symbolic tools that assists us in comprehension of the gospel truth through our sense of sight.

For further reading on the intriguing ancient account from which this icon is taken, check out The Harrowing of Hades. ~ Christ’s Descent into Hades – icon explanation

sovereigngrace said:

Thank you for finally being honest. I have known that you and mkgal were Full Preterist for a while.

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You don't know that - because it's not true (we have both told you that repeatedly). You're misunderstanding the line of definition. Full means full - everything before "full" is still partial. The forum SOP is about as clear in definition as one can get (thankfully).

sovereigngrace said:

When Christ was in the grave, the Father began pouring out His wrath upon Jerusalem by first shaking the city of Jerusalem with a major earthquake, and then rendering their temple redundant by cutting their curtain in two.

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The whole point of the incarnation was for God to prove His love for us. Jesus is the "exact representation of His nature" (Hebrews 1:3). Look at what Jesus said when He faced the Sanhedrin (He's not limited to a physical body as He was for the 33 1/2 years as He was on earth).....He was in the beginning.....He is eternal.....He is GOD:

claninja said:

Absolutely agree. So you are in agreement then that the saints were given the kingdom in 66-70ad?

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I am not saying exactlty that, but I believe that It certainly happened by AD70

David Kent said:

I am not saying exactlty that, but I believe that It certainly happened by AD70

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What do you mean “not saying exactly that”?