Hi Bible Highlighter,
Setst wrote: Those fruits we are to emulate were not meant to be laws, but are rather the natural outcome of a true faith - one who denies self, and walks by the Spirit of Christ into a life of Love.
No. Paul gives us a command which would relate to having the 9 fruits of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23.
"
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
(Galatians 5:16).
Paul did not say,
"Just believe and you will naturally have the fruits of the Spirit,"
Although, I am sure in some cases this could happen for some believers, and I do believe we cannot obey God's NT commands (i.e. Allow God to do His good works through us) without first being saved by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Anyways, but the point here is that Paul commands us to walk in the Spirit and he says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments.
You said:
setst RE: If you are truly saved, then you will obey the governing authorities over you, including the Church, unless those laws are against the Faith, but obeying those laws saves no one.
There is no doubt that a believer is changed spiritually when they come to Jesus Christ. They have a love, joy, peace, and thankfulness to the Lord for being forgiven. They have a new heart, with new desires. But... they still have free will to do good or evil. They are not mindless robots of obedience to the church and state just because they have been spiritually changed.
Why do I say this? Because....
We are told:
“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (
Hebrews 3:13-14).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (
Jude 1:21).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (
Revelation 2:10).
We are told to:
- Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
- Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
- Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).
These verses would not be true above if things are as you say in the fact that believers will in time always do what is perfectly right and they never need to worry about continuing in God's grace, or the faith, or His goodness, etc.
You said:
All the other 400 or so commands that you feel are commands in the NT are not for salvation, but for the conducting of things in an orderly fashion within the Church.
Not true. Here is just a sampling of commands in the New Testament that relate to our salvation:
The Two Greatest Commandments:
#1. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.” (Mark 12:29-30) (Matthew 22:27-38) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Luke 10:25-28).
#2. You shall love your neighbour as yourself (Mark 12:31) (Matthew 19:19).
(Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17-19).
Grace Commands:
#1. This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: John 3:18).
#2. Repent (
i.e. Ask the Lord for forgiveness of your sin with the intention of forsaking sin) (Matthew 3:2) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, "commands all men everywhere to repent") (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Luke 13:3).
Sanctification Commands:
#1. If your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell; And if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell (Matthew 5:29-30 cf. Matthew 5:28-30) (Is it for salvation? Yes, the command itself states this).
#2. Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28) (Is it for salvation? Yes, the command itself states this).
#3. God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother (Matthew 15:4) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 19:17-19).
#4. if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) (Is it for salvation? Yes, the command itself states this).
#5. You shall not steal (Matthew 19:18) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 19:17-19).
#6. You shall not bear false witness (Matthew 19:18) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 19:17-19).
#7. Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Do not believe it when any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there He is! For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Therefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning came out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Matthew 24:4-5) (Is it for salvation? Yes, the command itself implies it subtly; Also see: 1 John 4:3, John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5).
#8. Do not defraud (i.e. Do not cheat anyone.) (Mark 10:19) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See parallel passage in: Matthew 19:17-19).
#9. When you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any, that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses (Mark 11:25) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 6:15).
#10. Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consists not in the abundance of the things which he possesses (Luke 12:15) (Romans 13:9 says, “You shall not covet.”) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 19:17-19).
#11. Sin no more (John 5:14) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41-42, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 2:4).
#12. Labor not for the meat which perishes, but labor for that meat that endures unto everlasting life (John 6:27) (Note: The meat that Jesus refers to is to do the will of the Father as mentioned in John 4:34; God's will is our sanctification - 1 Thessalonians 4:3) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: John 6:53, and Matthew 7:21, cf. with 1 Thessalonians 4:3).
#13. You should go and bring forth fruit, and your fruit should remain (John 15:16) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 25:21, Matthew 25:30, John 15:1-6, and Titus 1:16).
#14. Continue in my love (John 15:9) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: 1 Corinthians 16:22).
#15. We should walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Romans 8:13).
#16. Be not high minded, but fear; For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed unless he also spare not you. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell, severity; but toward you goodness, if you continue in his goodness, otherwise you shall also be cut off (Romans 11:20-22) (Is it for salvation? Yes; It is implied in the command itself).
#17. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service (Romans 12:1) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Matthew 16:24-25).
#18. Do that which is good (Romans 13:3) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: Titus 1:16).
#19. Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (Is it for salvation? Yes; The command itself implies this).
#20. Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1) (Is it for salvation? Yes, see: Romans 8:13).
#21. A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if you have love one to another (John 13:34-35) (Is it for salvation? Yes; See: 1 John 3:10, also see: 1 John 1:7 and compare with 1 John 2:9-11).
You said:
Any instruction on adultery, divorce, fornication, lying, and all such things as this are given not because one who lives in Christ does not already know this by the Spirit, but because not everyone in the Church is faithful to live out the fruits of the Spirit by faith.
1 Timothy 1:9-12 (NIV)
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
Again, Paul is not referring to the NT commands here or Law in general but he is referring to the Old Testament Law of Moses. Just read the context and it is implied that it is referring to the Old Law; For some desired to be teachers of the Law during that time - 1 Timothy 1:7, and the Law is good if one uses it lawfully - 1 Timothy 1:8. Paul's point is referring to how he sinned and received grace (1 Timothy 1:12-17). Paul was under the Torah or the Law of Moses and not the commands of Jesus Christ. So this is not referring to NT commandments after one is saved by God's grace. The Law that is not made for the righteous is in reference to the Old Law and not the commands of Jesus. Yes, our obedience needs to flow out from our faith in Jesus Christ and His grace. No man can obey God without first seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by faith. It is true that the Law is not made for the righteous, but this in reference to the one who obeys God's laws and has learned to put such sins away by the Spirit (Romans 8:13). A believer is not aware of all of God's laws in the New Covenant when they first come to the faith. They have to learn of them and put these commands into effect within their life. It is a process of learning and obeying as a part of the faith.
Romans 13:10 (NIV)
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Following commands to imitate the fruit of the Spirit is a counterfeit faith.
Love is kind, patient, forgiving, persevering, gracious, not proud, etc as outlined in Scripture (1 Corinthians 13:4-13) which you call commands. But if you have to commanded to imitate the fruit of the Spirit, then it is no longer by the Spirit in you – it is no longer love working through you; rather, you are trying to accomplish in the flesh what the Spirit works out in those who, by faith, deny self and follow Christ into a life of love.
The fruits of the Spirit cannot be commanded, it must come from a heart of faith that walks by the Spirit of Christ, not by the flesh - whether that be from OT law or any other works of the law that replace the Spirit.
Even believing in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23) and it is a work of God (John 6:29). Believing in Jesus is a part of the faith (Romans 3:22), and God's grace (Acts of the Apostles 15:11).
Jesus says: "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).
"And we are his witnesses of these things; and
so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
You said:
Galatians 3:3-6 (NIV)
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Again, the context is the Law of Moses and not all Law. Galatians 3:17 talks about the Law coming 430 after the promise of Abraham. Is that the Law of Moses? or the Laws of Christ? Paul says in Galatians 2:3 about how Paul did not compel Titus (who is a Greek or Gentile) to be circumcised. Circumcision was of the Old Law and not the commands of Jesus. So the context of Galatians 3:3-6 is in view of trying to be justified by following the Old Testament Law of Moses and it is not referring to the commands of Jesus.
You said:
Setst RE:
Romans 8:3-4 (NIV)
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
And the Spirit had inspired men to give us a New Testament with many warnings against how sin can destroy anyone's soul. Ananias and Sapphira fell away from the faith and a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about it. If things are as you say, then they should have never fallen away and no fear by the church should have happened (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11 with a special focus on verse 11).
You said:
2 Corinthians 3:2-12 (NIV)
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Yes, this is the result of how the New Covenant differed from the Old Covenant. The New Testament was not originally given to us like the Old Law was given to us. God was able to guide the apostles and the early church to have that instruction and guidance by the Spirit. Now, that the New Testament Scriptures are complete, we are to look to what they have done by the Spirit and follow the instruction written down by the Spirit by their hand. We can now obey by the power of the Spirit working in us. It is not merely a written code alone. It was established by the working of the Spirit, and continues to do so but with the writings of the New Testament now. We can no more remove the NT Scriptures as a part of our faith than for rain not to be wet. Paul is not referring to NT Scripture here, but to tablets of stone on which the Ten commandments were written and the Torah.
You said:
Hebrews 10:16
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
Keep reading. It says that they can willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26).
