The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

Jamdoc

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As for Hebrews 12:5-8:

The purpose of chastening is correction. A master might yell at their dog or smack it on the nose lightly if he did something wrong so as to correct the behavior of the animal. The same is true with chastening for sons of God. A son of God does righteousness according to 1 John 2:29, and 1 John 3:10. They may fall into sin, and God knows that they will seek forgiveness with Him if they are chastened or corrected. But if they seek to justify sin with the thinking they are saved, then there is no point in correction. Most "Secure in their Sin Salvationists" do not believe they can overcome grievous sin in this life. So what would be the point of correction then? It would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football for pooping on his nice white carpets (When the dog owner knows the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick). In other words, true correction or punishment by God is done so as to make a change in the believer's life.
Well, as an aside you need to change up how you post rather than posting a bunch of times as a reply to one post.
But being perfectly obedient was impossible even for the Apostle Paul. Paul struggled with the flesh every single day, struggled with sin, and still sinned. Why? Because while the spirit was quickened through Christ, we're still in the same old sinful flesh, with the same old sinful fleshy brain that controls our thoughts, desires, all of that. That part of us isn't perfect. Flesh and blood are not going to enter into the Kingdom of Christ.
Romans 7:13-25 is something that I hope we can all relate to. We look at that woman with lust and we just, hate that we just did that. We get frustrated in traffic and we take the Lord's name in vain on impulse and we hate that we just did that! We tell a little lie to a friend that yes their baby is "beautiful" when we really think it looks like some deformed alien (a lot of newborn babies look pretty ugly, but you don't dare tell the lovestruck parents that), and we hate that we do that. It's a constant struggle against sin, and sometimes we backslide. There's not a person on this planet that I'd ever believe never struggled with sin, where they claim "I accepted Jesus into my heart and I never drank another drop of alcohol again! I never told another lie again!". What I would believe is "I turned to Jesus and I found that I just don't enjoy it when I drink alcohol anymore, I get drunk and I just feel guilty and sad and regret it.. but sometimes I think you know, something has gone wrong and I want to drown my sorrows". I'll believe that. not taking pleasure in sin the same way you did before being saved definitely happens. The Spirit convicts you. I used to enjoy inappropriate contentography, but I just couldn't anymore, I found myself fast forwarding and thinking "why don't I like this, why does this make me feel bad instead of exciting me like it used to".. did I still try, thinking well, maybe I just needed new inappropriate content, or a break? Yeah. I gave into the flesh, but it didn't bring me any happiness or enjoyment.
But it's a struggle, a daily struggle of denying the flesh. You end up turning away from sin, but that's not conditional to your salvation, you were already saved, you were saved and that's why you stopped liking sin, and maybe eventually, stopped doing those sins. Because it doesn't bring you any joy, but your flesh tells you "it used to bring you joy, you used to like it, try it again", so it's a constant temptation anyway.
 
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Well, as an aside you need to change up how you post rather than posting a bunch of times as a reply to one post.
But being perfectly obedient was impossible even for the Apostle Paul. Paul struggled with the flesh every single day, struggled with sin, and still sinned. Why? Because while the spirit was quickened through Christ, we're still in the same old sinful flesh, with the same old sinful fleshy brain that controls our thoughts, desires, all of that. That part of us isn't perfect. Flesh and blood are not going to enter into the Kingdom of Christ.
Romans 7:13-25 is something that I hope we can all relate to. We look at that woman with lust and we just, hate that we just did that. We get frustrated in traffic and we take the Lord's name in vain on impulse and we hate that we just did that! We tell a little lie to a friend that yes their baby is "beautiful" when we really think it looks like some deformed alien (a lot of newborn babies look pretty ugly, but you don't dare tell the lovestruck parents that), and we hate that we do that. It's a constant struggle against sin, and sometimes we backslide. There's not a person on this planet that I'd ever believe never struggled with sin, where they claim "I accepted Jesus into my heart and I never drank another drop of alcohol again! I never told another lie again!". What I would believe is "I turned to Jesus and I found that I just don't enjoy it when I drink alcohol anymore, I get drunk and I just feel guilty and sad and regret it.. but sometimes I think you know, something has gone wrong and I want to drown my sorrows". I'll believe that. not taking pleasure in sin the same way you did before being saved definitely happens. The Spirit convicts you. I used to enjoy inappropriate contentography, but I just couldn't anymore, I found myself fast forwarding and thinking "why don't I like this, why does this make me feel bad instead of exciting me like it used to".. did I still try, thinking well, maybe I just needed new inappropriate content, or a break? Yeah. I gave into the flesh, but it didn't bring me any happiness or enjoyment.
But it's a struggle, a daily struggle of denying the flesh. You end up turning away from sin, but that's not conditional to your salvation, you were already saved, you were saved and that's why you stopped liking sin, and maybe eventually, stopped doing those sins. Because it doesn't bring you any joy, but your flesh tells you "it used to bring you joy, you used to like it, try it again", so it's a constant temptation anyway.

Here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).



Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 
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Revelation 22:14-15 says,
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
 
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The bride of Christ is not being destroyed. The church is vibrant, expansive, loving and a bold example for Jesus on this earth.

Unsaved people who sit in churches or claim to be Christians are NOT the church

"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." (Revelation 19:8).

The Gentiles who were called to the wedding in the Parable of the Wedding Banquet who did not have on a wedding garment were bound hand and foot, taken away, and cast into outer darkness; whereby there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen.
 
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Well, as an aside you need to change up how you post rather than posting a bunch of times as a reply to one post.

Many have a short attention span and or they cannot handle lengthy posts. So I sometimes will post in bite size posts so that they can reply better.
 
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HatGuy

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setst RE: Sanctification begins by faith before the Spirit is ever received by the believer when the believer repents of his life of sin, and confesses Jesus as Lord. Or, in the case of the Old Testament saints, they sanctified themselves to God by faith before the Spirit was ever poured out on believers. Consider as well all the believing Jews in the New Testament Scriptures who were God fearing before ever receiving the Spirit by faith in Jesus - for they had never yet heard the Gospel.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Acts 26:16-18
17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Consider the Apostles of Jesus, they committed to giving up everything and following Jesus before ever receiving the Holy Spirit.

Luke 18:28-29
28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

When a believer receives the Spirit, the believer must live and walk by that Spirit in them to be sanctified and holy before God, and to be saved. The Spirit empowers and sanctifies us through our faith and continued faith in Jesus.

Sanctification is God's work in those who, by faith, live and walk by the Spirit they receive - the Spirit empowering their faith.

God works out a sanctified life in the Christ when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, sanctification begins when one believes in God. Sanctification continues, and is God’s work, in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.
I agree with you about the role of faith. There are some nit-picky issues, but I don't have the time to take those up. Careful though, all that stuff about faith will land you in hot water round these parts :).
 
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Jamdoc

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all I'm gonna say man, is that Paul was speaking in present tense, not past tense. Romans 8:3-4 is referring to being free of the old covenant and being under the new, which is salvation by Grace in the blood of Jesus Christ. Free of the law of sin and death, not free of sin.
 
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BCsenior

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On the day of judgement, all sins will be exposed, including those of works salvation preachers
who claim to live without sin and be totally obedient to God's commandments.
You have absolutely NO idea what's going on!
Faith without works is dead.
Born-again believers must be repenting of their (ongoing) sins.
Do you understand now?
 
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BCsenior

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Where does this Ideal of "we do not work [do anything] for our salvation" come from?
It comes from a misunderstanding of the passage of Ephesians 2:8
on the terms grace, saved, and works.
Cori, please seriously consider this ...
The whole of the NT should teach us that Ephesians 2:8-9
is referring to when the believer INITIALLY receives the Holy Spirit.

God's saving grace is NOT guaranteed to last forever!

This is similar to 2 Peter 1:9, which says that ONLY
our PAST, PREVIOUS, OLD sins have been forgiven
(NOT our present and future sins)!
 
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BCsenior

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You seem to be saying that if we keep this command and love one another with divine love,
THEN we will receive the Spirit ...
What I am saying is what John 14 says!
What I always say is what the word says!
People argue with what the word says
because they choose to not believe it.
Yes, this is a warning.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Of course, this is not my idea … it is what John 14 says!

John 14 (NLT):
15 If you love me, obey my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.
19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father,
and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.

And because they love me, my Father will love them.
And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.

23 All who love me will do what I say.
My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.

John 14 says: Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is conditional
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:15
If you love Jesus, Father God will give you the Holy Spirit … 14:15-16
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:21
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, He will love you and reveal Himself to you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, you will do what He says … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God and Jesus (and the HS?) will come inside … 14:23

John 14 says most believers today do NOT have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside
… simply because they are NOT obeying His commandments.
Does this remind you of the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.

Ephesians 4 teaches that even those who grieve the Holy Spirit are sealed with Him to the day of redemption. Once we receive the Holy Spirit He will always convict us of sin. I do believe if we constantly grieve the Holy Spirit we can lose our salvation.

“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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corinth77777

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Cori, please seriously consider this ...
The whole of the NT should teach us that Ephesians 2:8-9
is referring to when the believer INITIALLY receives the Holy Spirit.

God's saving grace is NOT guaranteed to last forever!

This is similar to 2 Peter 1:9, which says that ONLY
our PAST, PREVIOUS, OLD sins have been forgiven
(NOT our present and future sins)!
Hi, I listened to Ephesian and the saving....or deliverence as noted I believe also in Titus is bringing us into the light from the dark.

Quickening us together with Christ....We are awaken from death.

Yet, how we are continually saved [delivered today from present sin] is through grace. The grace here in my understanding as also noted in first Peter 3 is the faithfulness of Christ, indicated by His resurrection.

"Grace are you saved through faith" or also defined as faithfulness.

Question here is whose faith or faithfulness?

Well it is not of ourselves....therefore we are saved through Christ living forever to INTERCEED for those who come to Him.
Which is His faithfulness.

Not by work of righteousness....those works that are done to Merritt [earn]. There one would have something to boast in, and not God Himself.

The works that we do can only be after having been forgiven, not merely been made Alive with Christ. [Which is the saving] initial
aspect of a process of saving our lives hear on earth.

For recall it's about a faith that works by Love. Not a faith that works through fear.


GAL 2;16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I need to find a passage that describes salvation (deliverence) there are many times we will be delivered from our present circumstances.

As we who were saved from being in the dark and brought into the light.

So no I see Ephesian 2:8 as I see first Peter 3;21
 
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BCsenior

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Ephesians 4 teaches that even those who grieve the Holy Spirit are sealed with Him
to the day of redemption. Once we receive the Holy Spirit He will always convict us of sin.
I do believe if we constantly grieve the Holy Spirit we can lose our salvation.
“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.” Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬‬‬
Okay, my "excuse" is that Paul was writing ONLY to the "faithful" saints in Ephesus and Colossae.
(And he warns even the faithful to be sure to keep in line, walk the narrow path, etc.)
And also, seals can be broken ... like believers can be estranged from Christ and fall from grace.
 
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BCsenior

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GAL 2;16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This verse also refers to when one INITIALLY receives the precious Holy Spirit.
Please do NOT be deceived and believe in the false "grace-only" gospel,
which is from the very pits of hell.

Meanwhile, almost every translation has corrected the KJV error of
"faith OF Jesus" to "faith IN Jesus".

No translation is perfect, or perfectly stated, or perfectly understood.
Please check out Matthew 24:25 ...
NOT "before" (KJV) meaning "previously" ... but ... "beforehand" (NKJV).
 
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renniks

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This verse also refers to when one INITIALLY receives the precious Holy Spirit.
Please do NOT be deceived and believe in the false "grace-only" gospel,
which is from the very pits of hell.

Meanwhile, almost every translation has corrected the KJV error of
"faith of Jesus" to "faith in Jesus"!
So, how many sins does it take to become un-justified? The way I read it, we are justified by continued faith, not by works.
 
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BCsenior

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So, how many sins does it take to become un-justified?
The way I read it, we are justified by continued faith, not by works.
Many people here go into great detail about sins leading to death ...vs... those not leading to death.
Beyond that, I say that deliberate unconfessed sins may lead to death.
So, it's all about having the correct and acceptable heart attitude before God towards sin!
Which means: obey Jesus' commandments, repent of all known sin, etc.
And the ONLY people who do this are those who love Jesus (John 14-15).
Who goes to heaven who does NOT love Jesus and obey His commandments?
 
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setst777

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Hi Bible Highlighter,

Thank you for your message.

I don’t look to the 613 laws of Moses so as to obey God as a part of my faith. I believe when the Scriptures refer to the handwriting of ordinances (or the written code) (Colossians 2:14) or the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6) these things are in reference to the Torah and not the New Testament Scriptures (that where still being formed) when Paul was writing such statements. For the NT Scriptures were not complete yet; How can he condemn that which he was creating?

setst RE: I agree: The handwritten ordinances were the Ten Commandments and the Ceremonial Law and regulations - all are from the Mosaic Covenant.

The New Covenant is by Faith, living by the Spirit, not by the Law.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 NASB
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. . .

The Holy Spirit inspired NT Scripture and these NT Scriptures have many commands within them. As I said to you before that you appear to not want to see, there are approximately 400 some commands in the New Testament. There are 9 fruits of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23.

setst RE: What you define as commands, are not commands at all but rather are aspects of our faith in Christ - of walking by His Spirit - that we are to emulate. We don't follow those things as if they were laws, but rather to show us examples revealing our walk with Christ, if it is genuine.

Those fruits we are to emulate were not meant to be laws, but are rather the natural outcome of a true faith - one who denies self, and walks by the Spirit of Christ into a life of Love.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 NASB
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

setst RE: I review the Passages as follows:

"Matthew 19:17-19"
is not instruction to obey the Law, but rather, Jesus is testing the man.

The real test of faith was whether the man was willing to give up everything to follow Jesus...

Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

"Luke 10:25-28" describes exactly what the New Covenant is, which is not obeying all kinds of laws and regulations; but rather to love others and love God.

Luke 10:27
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”


1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Walking in the light is the same as walking in love - to love others, and to love God.

God = Light = Love = True Wisdom = Life = Righteousness

This is the New Life in Christ that is ours through faith in Jesus.

1 John 3:23
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Once again, the same command as the rest of the Passages you gave - to believe in Jesus and to love one another.

Hebrews 5:9
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

What did Jesus command that we are to obey?

1) To believe in Him, which is to deny self as Lord, and to follow Christ Jesus as our Lord into a life of Love.

2) We follow Jesus and obey Him by loving others and to love God. A vital part of that love is sharing the Gospel with others so they too can be saved.

Revelation 22:14
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

We wash our robes by faith in Jesus - deny self-rule, and then to follow Jesus into a life of love and service. These are the ones who are declared righteous - washed and saved.

Again, I don't follow the Old Testament ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, or circumcision, or the dietary laws, etc. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Paul essentially says that by loving your neighbor, you will fulfill the Moral Law like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc. (See: Romans 13:8-10). Besides, this Law is instinctual. The Gentiles were able to keep the Moral Law without having the written Law of Moses (See: Romans 2:14).

setst RE: True, and I agree, although no man except Lord Jesus ever lived out the Moral Law perfectly.

As for the words of Jesus that say, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-30):

Well, it is still a yoke, and it is still a burden. If this was not the case, then He would not have told us to deny ourselves, pick up our cross, and to follow Him.

setst RE: In comparison to trying to obey the law, which is impossible for any human to do, the yoke and burden of following Jesus by faith is indeed light - so long as we are willing to give up everything to follow Jesus. Only a remnant of humanity will come to a place in their lives where they are willing to do this - those who are humble and crushed in spirit.

The Scriptures teach that God foreknew the humble will listen to God, and so will be the ones drawn by the Spirit and Word to Christ. Those who humble themselves are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation.

Psalm 25 (WEB) 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Those who humble themselves are the ones that God elects to save and to give to the son. Those God foreknew, God also predestined for salvation.

Psalm 18 (WEB)
27 For you will save the humble, but the haughty eyes you will bring down.

God is keeping His promise to all those who humble themselves.

Lord Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the Gospel to the humble and poor in Spirit to fulfill God's promise to them - and they will listen...

Isaiah 61:1-2 (WEB)
(Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
1 The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn

All through the Scriptures we are taught that God favors the humble, but He resists the proud.

The Gospel was designed to draw only the simple and humble of this world to Christ - for God has mercy on the humble.

Luke 10 (WEB) 21 In that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.”

When Paul spoke of the commands, his listeners would have understood it to be in reference to the Torah because of the Jews during that time period.

setst RE: I agree, but only when Paul was referring to the Law and the works of the Law.

Again. Which Law is being referring to here whereby Jesus condemned sin in the flesh? This would be the OT Law or the Torah. Verse 4 in the KJV says "the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us." That is more accurate to say this because it is referring to how we will fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the Moral Law - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

setst RE: I agree.

Again, what Law is Paul referring to here?
The Law of Moses. Circumcision was a part of the Law of Moses and not the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. So the whole Law that is being fulfilled in verses 14 is in reference to the Law of Moses.

setst RE: I agree

Thank you. May the Lord's blessings be upon you, as well.

Blessings to you as well.

setst
 
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ChetSinger

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Wow, these things can get intense.

I think that sometimes repentance and works are becoming conflated. I don't think they're the same thing. I think repentance is turning away from evil; works are things we do to advance the kingdom.

I think Paul describes the judgment of a man who has no works here, in 1 Cor 3:10-15:
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
That is, lack of works isn't going to condemn a man; he enters the next age alive though empty-handed.

Repentance is another matter. I believe it's expected that as we walk with Christ we're turning away from evil and toward righteousness, whether gradually or suddenly. I think Paul is describing that process here, in 2 Cor 3:18:
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Paul wrote that to a church that appears to have been a spiritual wreck, filled with sin and foolishness. And Paul was indeed willing to kick a man out of the church for gross immorality. Nevertheless, as long as the rest of them kept the faith it appears they were considered as "being transformed", current warts nonetheless.
 
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We agree on this.

No. David was not saved while he committed his sins. John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Proverbs 6:32 says, "But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." David only received forgiveness of these sins when he confessed of them in Psalms 51.

setst RE: Your point is well taken. My understanding, by reading the Psalms and the actual account, is that God sent the prophet to confront David, because God was giving David an opportunity to repent of his grievous sin before completely rejecting David. David, in humility, sincerely repented after that confrontation.

Consider also that Scripture states that if a believer disowns Christ, then Christ will also disown that believer:

Matthew 10:33 (NIV)
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Yet, Peter disowned Jesus before others three times. However Jesus I don't believe Jesus disowned Peter, but gave him a chance to repent.

I believe God looks on the heart, and David was a man after God's own heart.

Acts 13:22 “I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do."
 
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