God and His love

StillGods said:

why do Calvinists believe God does not love all people that He has made?

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Maybe it's all to do with the founder's
teachings/doctrines etc.

At Your Footstool said:

Maybe it's all to do with the founder's
teachings/doctrines etc.

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Interesting answer!

StillGods said:

why do Calvinists believe God does not love all people that He has made?

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I think this is a misconception. God can be angry at sinners but still love them in some way. However, if you come across someone who says that God does not love all people (in some sense), you should ask them why they think that, it may lead to how they interpret scripture.

But for sure, God does not love all people in the same way. The ultimate test is the separation of the sheep and the goats. If He says "I will have mercy on whom I will and harden whom I will," then it precludes that some are loved more than others.
TD

StillGods said:

why do Calvinists believe God does not love all people that He has made?

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“It is commonly said, that it is our sentiment….and what may be inferred from the doctrine of predestination, that God made man to damn him; whereas this is neither our sentiment; nor is it the sense we give of this text, nor is it to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination; for there is a wide difference between God’s making man to damn him, trod his appointing wicked men to damnation for their wickedness, which is the meaning of this text, and of the doctrine of reprobation we assert. We say, that God made man neither to damn him nor to save him; neither salvation nor damnation were God’s ultimate in making man, but his own glory, which will be answered one way or another, either in his salvation or damnation.” John Gill, Cause of God and Truth

Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 defines reprobation thusly;

REPROBA”TION, n. [L. reprobatio.]

1. The act of disallowing with detestation, or of expressing extreme dislike.

2. The act of abandoning or state of being abandoned to eternal destruction.

When a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation.

3. A condemnatory sentence; rejection.

Set a brand of reprobation on clipped poetry and false coin.

Biblically speaking, reprobation should be understood as the justice of God toward the wicked, keeping in mind that all we are ever owed is justice. Salvation is a free gift to the undeserving sinner. The only acceptance we have with God is in Christ Jesus. Outside of Christ there is no salvation, no offering for our sin and no mediator between God and mankind. Those who God shows mercy to will be saved from their just penalty.

God’s determination to destroy the wicked.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. (Gen 6:5-7)

God’s justice toward wicked sinners due to their sin.

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Gen 19:13)

God raised up Pharaoh with the purpose of destroying him, God showing His power over the wicked, so that it would be “declared throughout all the earth.”

And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo 9:16)

Without Christ the continued wickedness of sinners sparks God’s righteous anger toward them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? (Deu 31:17)

God only forgives those who belong to Him through Jesus Christ our covenant head. Eli’s house was not to be forgiven even if they followed the Law.

And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever. (1Sa 3:14)

Those in Christ, the “Lamb slain before the foundation of world,” are not viewed as wicked sinners. Their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus Christ who is our surety. Surety means our “security or safety.” (Websters 1828)

God is angry with the reprobate.

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psa 7:11)

Pharaoh was created with a purpose to “to show my power” that it would be declared all over the world. We see the “wicked” were “made” for the “day of evil.”

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Pro 16:4)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (Psa 11:5)

God owes us nothing. That is the foundation of Gospel grace. The best we can expect is justice and for those who the “Son chooses to reveal himself” will received grace because of Jesus Christ. Those who remain in the flesh will be “destroyed.”

Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up. (Psa 28:5)

We often forget how the Gospel, not only saves, but hardens the hearts of reprobate sinners. This is the case in Isaiah 6 where the Prophet is sent to “make the heart of this people fat” to condemn them “lest they see with their eyes, and hear” and be “converted and be healed.” Isaiah is preaching to them for their continued reprobation.

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, (Isa 6:9-11)

The Lord lead Egypt astray. This is divine reprobation.

The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. (Isa 19)

Those Lord actively set out to close the eye of those He rejected. The “Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes.”

Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isa 29:9-12)

The Lord our God does in fact reject people for salvation.

Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them. (Jer 6:30)

The Prophet gives instructions not to pray for the reprobation. This supports my interpretation of 1 Tim 2 offered in a previous post and exposes the Arminian free will understanding. We are not to pray for “all men everywhere” as if God is hoping to save them, no, we are to pray for all kinds of people including those in authority.

Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. (Jer 7:16)

Christ approves of the ministry of Isaiah and continues in the same vain, preaching the Gospel to call the elect while also reprobating and hardening the hearts of the rest of humanity.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:14-15)

Not everyone who hears the Gospel is given the ability to understanding it. The result is a further hardening of the sinner against God.

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (Luk 8:10)

The reprobate will not understand the Gospel only Christ’s sheep will believe.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (Joh 10:26)

God is described in the Old and New Testaments as the divine potter who does what He likes with His creation. The Bible teaches that God created “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” That is divine reprobation.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (Rom 9:21-22)

The elect will obtain salvation in Christ by the power and work of the Holy Spirit. The rest will be “blinded.” Literally this means the “rest” were literally hardened against God.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Rom 11:7)

The biblical text teaches that God will “send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” Believing this lie was to make sure they were “damned.” This echoes the events that took place in Isaiah 19 where God lead Egypt astray.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:11-12)

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jud 1:4)

Divine reprobation is biblical doctrine, albeit, a difficult one. All doctrine should humble us and make us look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation bringing to light our helplessness and hopelessness without Him.

Yours it the Lord,

jm

At Your Footstool said:

Maybe it's all to do with the founder's
teachings/doctrines etc.

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If you mean Jesus, yes. Not only do "Calvinists" believe in the biblical doctrine often called Calvinism so did Thomas Aquinas and many, many others. It's the biblical conclusion.

“I answer that, It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (I:22:2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (I:22:1 and I:22:2). The end towards which created things are directed by God is twofold; one which exceeds all proportion and faculty of created nature; and this end is life eternal, that consists in seeing God which is above the nature of every creature, as shown above (I:12:4). The other end, however, is proportionate to created nature, to which end created being can attain according to the power of its nature. Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God; as in Him is the type of the order of all things towards an end, which we proved above to be providence. Now the type in the mind of the doer of something to be done, is a kind of pre-existence in him of the thing to be done. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.”

On Reprobation St. Thomas adds,

“God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (I:22:2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (I:22:1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”

Read more from St. Thomas’s Summa here.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

StillGods said:

why do Calvinists believe God does not love all people that He has made?

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God is immutable, He does not change. In Romans 9 there are vessels of wrath and mercy. The vessels of mercy were taken from the same lump the vessels of wrath were in. This is called election. This election is not based on anything special in those He has chosen. That’s why it’s called unconditional election. There was nothing in those He elected that was missing in those He justly left in their already condemned state. The elect were not less wicked, loved Him more, did more good works, that drew God to them. His election is based solely upon Himself.

StillGods said:

I dont think God loves some people more than others, I think He loves us all the same. He is the Perfect Father - He does not play favourites. He loves us all the same.
so I really struggle with the idea of God not loving some people, that idea it doesn't sit well with me at all because God is love.

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It sounds like you're trying to say that if God loves some more than others, that the ones loved less are not loved. Is this what you're trying to say?
TD

StillGods said:

i'm sorry but all the replies are so awful
that is not good news at all.

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Solid argument.

Thanks.

StillGods said:

i'm sorry but all the replies are so awful
that is not good news at all.

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The gospel is not good news at all for the unbeliever. "He who does not believe, the wrath of God abideth on him" is very bad news to those who don't believe in Christ. The truth is not good news for those who reject it. "Whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death." Does this sound like good news to you? Paul wrote that the Christian faith is the stink of death to those perishing. So the question for you is, why does the truth appear to you as bad news, if your faith is not precarious?
TD

StillGods said:

why do Calvinists believe God does not love all people that He has made?

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I believe He does love (emotion) all people. However, we should look at what love in relation to enmity or hate means Biblically.

In Deuteronomy 21:15, there was a man with two wives. One was beloved, and another hated. This means one was preferred above the other, according to the idiomatic use of this phrase in Hebrew.

We can see Jesus's use of this word "hate" to mean not prefer above, when he speaks of it being a requirement to "hate" ones family. Luke 14:26

The biblical use of what is translated hate is not speaking of an emotion rather, it's a place of preference for one thing over another. We are to put our faith in Christ above our family. This doesn't mean we stop feeling love toward them, or stop praying for them etc etc. We still love (emotion) them, but our preference in love as Christians is to follow Christ, and family comes after that.

The greatest commandment is to love God with all our hearts, strength, and souls... next we love our neighbor as ourselves.

God is our preference in this case, and thus we put at enmity all else. But it doesn't mean we aren't known by our love for others.

With Jacob and Esau we see one loved and the other hated prior to birth - His love or preference was shown in the covenant made.

So is God somehow unjust by choosing to include some in covenant and not others? No.. God can choose to make a covenant with any He wants.

Today, that covenant is open to all who believe on His Name. It's not held in (national) limitation, but is an open offer to all who would draw near in faith.

Therefore, God loves (emotion) everyone, there is no preference for nation. Will every single person end up in covenant with God? No.. of course not. But that doesnt mean God loves them less (emotion) it means they aren't given a preferential place in covanent with Him.

It's not to us to say who, it is to us to preach the Gospel of Salvation to mankind and leave the rest to God.

But to preach without prayer for the lost is useless. And to say that salvation is uncertain is false.. He will save His own and He will not fail.

In John 17:6, John 17:9, John 17:19 Jesus prays, "I have manifested Thy name to the men whom you gave me out of the world; yours they were, and you gave them to me...I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom you gave me, for they are yours. . . And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth."

StillGods said:

I'm saying God loves all the same, not some more some less but all are loved the same.

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So God loves everyone, can save everyone, but doesn't?

What kind of love has the power to act and doesn't?

StillGods said:

I'm saying God loves all the same, not some more some less but all are loved the same.

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So then, here are 2 people:
1. You
2. A man who plans evil on his bed
So when the scripture says that God hates person #2, you say that He loves that person the same as you? Do I get you straight?
TD

StillGods said:

see my reply above.
The good news is God loves every single one of us the same and made a way for all, should we choose to accept Christ, we all have the same choice to know God all of us have that same opportunity that is very Good News!

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No, the good news is that Christ died for our sins and reconciled us to God, and everyone who believes in Him has eternal life. It appears to me that your "God loves everyone the same" philosophy is new age, not Biblical. The Bible says "whoever does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The way I read the scripture is that God loves those who love Him, and will destroy those who hate Him. Deu 7:9-10 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments; but repays those who hate Him to their faces, to destroy them; He will not delay with him who hates Him, He will repay him to his face."
TD