Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

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mkgal1

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He had, up until then. But He was long gone when the NT writers summed up the cross-work as the completion of our salvation.
Using your reasoning, though, Jesus said He'd completed all the work before the Cross. So just as you attribute the Destruction of Jerusalem as being the "Coming of Titus" instead of the "Coming of the Son of Man". .....the Cross must've been "the Roman's work" (following the same reasoning) because Jesus said He had completed His work already.

The NT authors mentioned "salvation being near" AFTER the Cross.

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Using your reasoning, though, Jesus said He'd completed all the work before the Cross. So just as you attribute the Destruction of Jerusalem as being the "Coming of Titus" instead of the "Coming of the Son of Man". .....the Cross must've been "the Roman's work" (following the same reasoning) because Jesus said He had completed His work already.

The NT authors mentioned "salvation being near" AFTER the Cross.

.

Please see my previous posts that address this and still remain ignored, if you can. You seem to ignore my key rebuttals every time.
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace

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Are you saying your beliefs have changed since the beginning of this thread - or just the label you're using to identify with?

LOL. I have changed: I have become a stronger opponent of Partial Preterism. Idealists are strictly Partial Historists and Partial Futurists!
 
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claninja

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Both genos and genea refer to race.

G1074 (Strong)
γενεά

genea

From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

G1074 (Thayer)

γενεά

genea

Thayer Definition:

1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

You post Thayer's definition and then ignore that Thayer classifies genea under point number 3 in regards to Matthew 24:34 , which is in regards to a literal generation and NOT RACE.

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."

What Bible translation translates genea as race?

In what translated literary work is genea every translated as race?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You post Thayer's definition and then ignore that Thayer classifies genea under point number 3 in regards to Matthew 24:34 , which is in regards to a literal generation and NOT RACE.

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."

What Bible translation translates genea as race?

In what translated literary work is genea every translated as race?

It fits in every reference. Check it out yourself.
 
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mkgal1

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The thesis of this thread has been totally reinforced by you and claninja. For that I thank you! Partial Preterism takes every promise the New Testament Church owns, every spiritual requirement it is meant to keep and every future hope it is meant to hold during the intra-Advent, and diverts it away from Christ to Titus and his appearing in AD70. That is why every genuine Christian should run from this error.
What?! It's you that insists on attributing the Destruction of Jerusalem to Titus - ignoring that Jesus had prophesied its coming destruction to have come on the specific generation that were His contemporaries. I am saying Jesus is making His claim to be God and that He proved it further by Coming in judgement and salvation in 70 AD. That was the Coming of the Son of Man (although humans were instrumental - just as they and creation were instrumental in God's judgement in the Old Testament).
 
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claninja

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They killed Christ, when He defeated the grave, but He returned shortly after that in His resurrected body and empowered His disciples (through Pentecost) to take the Gospel out to a Gentile world! By AD52 Colossians 1:6 tells us that the Gospel "Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth."

This was before the coming of Titus in AD70!!!

I'm trying to understand your belief as your are not answering clearly. So then you believe that the returning vineyard owner destroyed the wicked tenants at Jesus' resurrection?

I'm going on what you and mkgal have confessed here! Show me were my conclusion is wrong.

you are clearly drawing incorrect conclusions based on your own misunderstanding.

I never mentioned Titus, so not sure where you got that from or where you concluded that every spiritual promise that belongs to Christ is given to Titus in the partial preterist belief.

The only thing that Titus would have been was God's weapon as the Babylonians had been in the past.

Jeremiah 51:20 You are My war club, My weapon for battle. With you I shatter nations; with you I bring kingdoms to ruin.

Matthew 22:7 he king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city
 
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claninja

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I am a Partial Historist and a Partial Futurist!

LOL. I have changed: I have become a stronger opponent of Partial Preterism. Idealists are strictly Partial Historists and Partial Futurists!

in post #525 mkgal quotes you as saying you are an idealist. So are you? And if yes, you believe revelation 22 is literal? If you do, then you are not an idealist.
 
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claninja

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It fits in every reference. Check it out yourself.

And generation, of which it is translated into every single time, also fits in every reference.

I don't need to change what was already translated into the english literal word generation to make my view work, but you do, and that is a red herring, especially when you can provide no Bible version or historical work that actually translates genea as race.

1.) You use thayer's definition in attempt to prove that genea can also mean race in Matthew 24:34 and then you completely ignore thayer's point #3 on genea.

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).


2.) You provide no Bible translation or version that actually translates genea as race

3.) You provide no historical literary work that has translated genea into race.



 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm trying to understand your belief as your are not answering clearly. So then you believe that the returning vineyard owner destroyed the wicked tenants at Jesus' resurrection?


Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission.

you are clearly drawing incorrect conclusions based on your own misunderstanding.

I never mentioned Titus, so not sure where you got that from or where you concluded that every spiritual promise that belongs to Christ is given to Titus in the partial preterist belief.

The only thing that Titus would have been was God's weapon as the Babylonians had been in the past.
Jeremiah 51:20 You are My war club, My weapon for battle. With you I shatter nations; with you I bring kingdoms to ruin.

Matthew 22:7 he king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city

Ok then. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

Is this past or future?
 
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sovereigngrace

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And generation, of which it is translated into every single time, also fits in every reference.

I don't need to change what was already translated into the english literal word generation to make my view work, but you do, and that is a red herring, especially when you can provide no Bible version or historical work that actually translates genea as race.

1.) You use thayer's definition in attempt to prove that genea can also mean race in Matthew 24:34 and then you completely ignore thayer's point #3 on genea.

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).


2.) You provide no Bible translation or version that actually translates genea as race

3.) You provide no historical literary work that has translated genea into race.



Because you are so sold on Preterism and the coming of Titus in AD70 you cannot think genea is anything other than 40 years. To others it can also mean an age or a race, all depending on the context.
 
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mkgal1

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sovereigngrace

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claninja

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It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great great commision.

So you believe the wicked tenants were destroyed during the 40 days between Jesus' resurrection and ascension? What evidence do you have that shows the wicked tenants were destroyed during this time period?

If this is the case, I absolutely disagree, and so does scripture. Scripture is very clear that wicked tenants would be destroyed by a future invading army. And from history we know this happened in 66-70ad, which confirmed the very words of Jesus

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God

Matthew 22:4-7 Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.


Good I'm glad you understand that partial preterists don't believe all the spiritual blessings of Christ were given to Titus .

, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

Is this past or future?

Well as I am not living in a resurrected immortal body as I type this, I am pretty sure its still future for me.
 
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mkgal1

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Because you are so sold on Preterism and the coming of Titus in AD70 you cannot think genea is anything other than 40 years. To others it can also mean an age or a race, all depending on the context.
Strong's shows the specific definition that applies as:

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

Perhaps your disdain for the preterist theology is preventing you from recognizing that?
 
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claninja

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Because you are so sold on Preterism and the coming of Titus in AD70 you cannot think genea is anything other than 40 years. To others it can also mean an age or a race, all depending on the context.

Sure, just provide even one Bible version that translates genea as race or even one historical literary work where genea has been translated as race. Then I will concede that you have a valid argument.

Why does thayer's include genea in point 3 and not point 2b?


b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

Sovereigngrace, I really thought this discussion was going to go differently. But as it is seemingly turning out, your argument style is no different than the dispy/premils: no evidence and generic, subjective counterpoints.
 
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mkgal1

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LOL. Whatever floats your boat. I have never tried to fit into any theological boat snugly.
ISTM that as long as it's not confused with preterism - that's all that matters. I don't know why you thought my post was funny, though. It wasn't meant to be.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So you believe the wicked tenants were destroyed during the 40 days between Jesus' resurrection and ascension? What evidence do you have that shows the wicked tenants were destroyed during this time period?

If this is the case, I absolutely disagree, and so does scripture. Scripture is very clear that wicked tenants would be destroyed by a future invading army. And from history we know this happened in 66-70ad, which confirmed the very words of Jesus

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God

Matthew 22:4-7 Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

You know that I believe the great tribulation in Matthew 24 is past. Please see the intro to the Op. I don't struggle that the result of their rejection was AD70.

Good I'm glad you understand that partial preterists don't believe all the spiritual blessings of Christ were given to Titus ... Well as I am not living in a resurrected immortal body as I type this, I am pretty sure its still future for me.

Well that is encouraging.

mkgal previously stated (and I found it troubling):

I hold that the resurrection of the just and unjust occurred around 66-70ad, and from that point on believers, who remain alive and physically die in the Lord are raised in a spiritual body and caught up to heaven. Thus this consummates the Ezekiel temple which is where Gods throne is and his footstool is (Ezekiel 43:6-7) where he forever dwells with his people ...

I cannot get mkgal to acknowledge that she accepts a future physical resurrection of the just and the unjust as a literal physical event. She seems to hold the Full Preterist position of an ongoing spiritual experience upon death as it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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ISTM that as long as it's not confused with preterism - that's all that matters. I don't know why you thought my post was funny, though. It wasn't meant to be.

LOL. It was and is. I hold to many historical fulfilments in common with Historists and PPs.
 
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