The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

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Most believers today have been deceived by Satan and the churches
into believing the BLUE is absolutely false!

Hopefully, the LORD will use you in helping those few who are OPEN to the Truth.

RE: the RED, isn't our free-will co-operation (the BLUE) important to recognize?

You are a unique person, my friend.
You are the only person I have ever encountered who holds to a form of Calvinism and yet they strongly deny Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved belief. I believe Eternal Security stems from Calvinism and or from St. Augustine.

We learn of a sin and still be saved type belief (Eternal Security) in John's first epistle. Saint Augustine revived this gnostic belief of Eternal Security and or a sin and still be saved type belief and I believe John Calvin and or the Calvinists had revived this belief. In fact, all 5 points of Calvinism are not biblical.

Check out the history of Eternal Security here.

For do you believe Christ tasted death for every man? (See: Hebrews 2:9).
Do you believe Christ draws all men unto Himself? (See John 12:32).
Do you believe that Jesus is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, but the sins of the entire world? (See: 1 John 2:2).
Do you believe the part of the Bible that says: "...them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Do you believe that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance? (See: 2 Peter 3:9).
 
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Phil W

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Who are you, anyway?
The above thread has it all.
Shall I just duplicate it, and label it #2?
Or, participate in da original #1.
I had replied before realizing the part in blue could be "clicked" on.
I'll get back to you when I finish reading the "other" thread.

I'm back...
Your differentiation between "inside" and "upon" doesn't sit well with me.
 
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BCsenior

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You are a unique person, my friend.
You are the only person I have ever encountered who holds to a form of Calvinism and yet ...
My friend, please tell me why I hold to a form of Calvinism.
I'm not disagreeing with you ... just curious.
 
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BCsenior

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I had replied before realizing the part in blue could be "clicked" on.
I'll get back to you when I finish reading the "other" thread.
Okay, I hope you are able to "see" the Truth ... it's not easy.
 
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setst777

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Romans 8:28-30
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover those whom He predestined, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom he justified, them Be also glorified."

setst RE:
Regarding your
Romans 8 quotes I write as follows:

Romans 8:28-30 is only a summary of which the Scriptures expound on.

Calvinists are pre-defining what each of those terms (purpose, foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified) according to Calvin's ideology rather that founding those terms on the actual context of Scripture.

Romans 8 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.

Here is how Scripture actually applies this summary in context...
  • God truly works out good for all those who love Him.
  • God predestined those whom God foreknew (those who would believe at the hearing of the Gospel God foreknew, and predestined them for Salvation) to be conformed to the image of His son.
  • Those God predestined, He called (by the Gospel invitation and the convicting work of the Spirit, but the Spirit's convicting work can be resisted).
  • Those who are called by the Gospel, (if they do not resist the Spirit, but believe as Scripture states), then ...
  • He justifies (we are justified by faith according to all the Scriptures). Those he justifies He also glorifies - salvation.
The Spirit's drawing can be resisted, but those who do not resist are the one's actually drawn to Christ. In addition, those who remain in Christ do so because they do not resist the Spirit they received.

Acts 7 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalm 106:32 (WEB) Bolding mine…32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord, and trouble came to Moses because of them; 33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

Ephesians 4:30-31 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice

Blessings
 
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setst777

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Excellent post, brother. I really love it. Thank you. I just want to clarify: When you say that walking after the Spirit fulfills the righteousness of the whole law, would this be:

(a) Following the commands of Jesus and His followers in the New Testament? or:
(b) Following the commands of Jesus, and His followers in the New Testament and certain ceremonial Laws in the Law of Moses like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, etc.?

I believe it is option A.
Only the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (i.e. Laws that we inherently know to do good without having the Law - Romans 2:14) has been carried over or repeated from the Old Law. No ceremonial laws (like the Sabbaths) or judicial laws have carried over from the 613 laws of Moses on into the New Covenant (that officially began with Christ's death).

I believe we fulfill the Old Law by walking after the Spirit and by loving our neighbor. This would not be by keeping the ceremonial laws, and judicial laws from the 613 Laws of Moses. I believe you hold to the same view, but I just want to make sure, my friend.

Anyways, may God bless you today, brother;
And thank you again for the wonderful post.

*Big macho man hug to you in the Lord*

setst RE: Yes, I agree with you. Keep in mind though that the ceremonial law looked forward to Christ using symbolism. Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of that ceremonial law. So when we live out a life of love for Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we do in fact fulfill all law - moral and ceremonial.
 
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ChetSinger

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I am not sure the idea of the Spirit being a prize is biblical, God is not a prize to be won or lost, I am not sure anyone here is arguing for that are they? Aren't we talking about whether the alive/filling/gifting walk with the Spirit post the initial ongoing indwelling of the spirit which occurs at salvation?
Afaik we receive the Holy Spirit by asking for him:
What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! Luke 11:11-13
It's one of my favorite verses in the NT.
 
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setst777

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We need the Holy Spirit to become holy.

Saying we need to be holy before we get the Holy Spirit is saying we have to be well before we can have our medicine.

This is unfortunately the wrong way around and will mean Christians will never be able to be holy because they'll believe they can't have who makes them holy until they make themselves holy.

Try again.

setst RE: Sanctification begins by faith before the Spirit is ever received by the believer when the believer repents of his life of sin, and confesses Jesus as Lord. Or, in the case of the Old Testament saints, they sanctified themselves to God by faith before the Spirit was ever poured out on believers. Consider as well all the believing Jews in the New Testament Scriptures who were God fearing before ever receiving the Spirit by faith in Jesus - for they had never yet heard the Gospel.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Acts 26:16-18
17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Consider the Apostles of Jesus, they committed to giving up everything and following Jesus before ever receiving the Holy Spirit.

Luke 18:28-29
28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

When a believer receives the Spirit, the believer must live and walk by that Spirit in them to be sanctified and holy before God, and to be saved. The Spirit empowers and sanctifies us through our faith and continued faith in Jesus.

Sanctification is God's work in those who, by faith, live and walk by the Spirit they receive - the Spirit empowering their faith.

God works out a sanctified life in the Christ when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, sanctification begins when one believes in God. Sanctification continues, and is God’s work, in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.
 
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setst RE: Yes, I agree with you. Keep in mind though that the ceremonial law looked forward to Christ using symbolism. Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of that ceremonial law. So when we live out a life of love for Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we do in fact fulfill all law - moral and ceremonial.

Yes, I agree, but I wanted to stress we do not literally keep the ceremonial law like keeping the Saturday Sabbath literally like an Old Covenant believer did (by actually stopping from one’s work from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown), but we keep it only in the sense of loving one’s neighbor or by walking after the Spirit according to the New Covenant (or New Testament). We fulfill this via by Christ when we believe in Him (for salvation), and we are faithful to Him (according to the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers).
 
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setst777

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Yes, I agree, but I wanted to stress we do not literally keep the ceremonial law like keeping the Saturday Sabbath literally like an Old Covenant believer did (by actually stopping from one’s work from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown), but we keep it only in the sense of loving one’s neighbor or by walking after the Spirit according to the New Covenant (or New Testament). We fulfill this via by Christ when we believe in Him (for salvation), and we are faithful to Him (according to the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers).

setst RE: I understand what you mean which is why I do agree with you.

The Ceremonial Law was literally fulfilled in Christ:
  • Lord Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and our Sacrifice for Sin,
  • Jesus is our Passover Lamb - by His blood of the Lamb (Jesus) we are saved from death.
  • Jesus is our High Priest
The Moral Law is also fulfilled by faith in Jesus - a life of Love for God and for our neighbor.

We are no longer under bondage to live in obedience to the moral law or the ceremonial law. However, by living out our faith in Jesus we actually and necessarily fulfill both IF our faith is genuine - we keep the commands of God by walking out our faith in Jesus - living by His Spirit.

All other symbolism of the OT is literally fulfilled in Christ - just as the Book of Hebrews teaches us.

We as Christians do not follow the shadow of that reality that is in Christ. Rather, we follow Jesus who is the literal fulfillment of that shadow as expressed in the ceremonial law and the moral law.

We are in agreement, and so are the Scriptures...

Romans 3:19-25
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore,
  • no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather,
  • through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. . .

Colossians 2:11-15
11 Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:13-15
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For He himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Galatians 3:10-11 (NIV)
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

The Letter of the Law verses Spirit of the Law

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 NASB
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. . .
 
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My friend, please tell me why I hold to a form of Calvinism.
I'm not disagreeing with you ... just curious.

It is a standard trademark that one is usually a Calvinist if they reject Free Will or human cooperation with God involving salvation.

Calvinists believe in TULIP (or the five points of Calvinism).

1. Total Depravity.
2. Unconditional Election.
3. Limited Atonement.
4. Irresistible Grace.
5. Perseverance of the Saints (or OSAS or Eternal Security or Free Grace).
 
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setst RE: I understand what you mean which is why I do agree with you.

The Ceremonial Law was literally fulfilled in Christ:
  • Lord Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and our Sacrifice for Sin,
  • Jesus is our Passover Lamb - by His blood of the Lamb (Jesus) we are saved from death.
  • Jesus is our High Priest
The Moral Law is also fulfilled by faith in Jesus - a life of Love for God and for our neighbor.

We are no longer under bondage to live in obedience to the moral law or the ceremonial law. However, by living out our faith in Jesus we actually and necessarily fulfill both IF our faith is genuine - we keep the commands of God by walking out our faith in Jesus - living by His Spirit.

All other symbolism of the OT is literally fulfilled in Christ - just as the Book of Hebrews teaches us.

We as Christians do not follow the shadow of that reality that is in Christ. Rather, we follow Jesus who is the literal fulfillment of that shadow as expressed in the ceremonial law.

Yes, I agree that Christ fulfilled the Ceremonial Laws and Judicial Laws and nailed to the cross these ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14) (Colossians 2:16-17).

But I disagree that we are not obligated to keep the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). The Moral Law existed before the Law of Moses and it still exists today. Granted, the Judicial Laws attached to the Law of Moses do not exist anymore, but the Moral Law is still for us today. If not, then a person can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality like George Sodini.

To learn about George Sodini, check out this article here. Yes, we keep the Moral Law by waking after the Spirit, and by loving our neighbor but the Moral Law is not abrogated.
 
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setst777

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Yes, I agree that Christ fulfilled the Ceremonial Laws and Judicial Laws and nailed to the cross these ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14) (Colossians 2:16-17).

But I disagree that we are not obligated to keep the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). The Moral Law existed before the Law of Moses and it still exists today. Granted, the Judicial Laws attached to the Law of Moses do not exist anymore, but the Moral Law is still for us today. If not, then a person can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality like George Sodini.

To learn about George Sodini, check out this article here. Yes, we keep the Moral Law by waking after the Spirit, and by loving our neighbor but the Moral Law is not abrogated.

setst RE: I know why you disagree that we are not obligated to keep the Moral Law, but we are never saved by keeping any law according to the Scriptures, but we do fulfill the entire Moral Law, and even the Ceremonial Law, by faith in Christ Jesus.

Please carefully read these Scriptures and let me know if you still disagree. . .

Romans 8:1-4
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 3:19 -29
19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made. . . 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, confined for the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’soffspring and heirs according to promise.

So we not obligated to follow the Ten Commandments, nor should we think to do so. Rather, we live by faith expressing itself though love. In this way, we fulfill the whole law of God - whatever law there may be.

Romans 13 (WEB) Bolding mine.
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other commandmentsthere are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love doesn’t harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 8 (WEB)
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but what counts is faith working through love…
14 For the Whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

This does not mean we are obeying the letter of the Law given through Moses to the Jews (Mosaic Law). We are no longer under the written Code of the Law, just as Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law.

We are to keep God’s commandments. But if not the 10 commandments, then what commandments are Christians to keep? The Scriptures are clear throughout:

1 John 3:22-24 (NASB)
22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

To believe in the name of His Son is the first command, and faith includes repentance from that which enslaved us – our old nature of sin.

We are to die to the old life of slavery to the flesh, and then to put our faith in Christ, listening to and following Him into a life of love; for one cannot live by the Spirit if one is still controlled by the flesh.

These are the commandments of our rightful Lord and Master. Jesus gave many parables in this regard to instruct us how to live rightly - commands and instruction to repent, to die to the old life of sin, and to follow Jesus into a life of mercy, forgiveness, compassion and Love.

Besides this, the Lord Jesus commanded that new believers be baptized, and that all believers should celebrate the Lord’s Supper in remembrance of Him.

The 4th commandment, one of the Commandments given specifically for the Israelis, was to observed as a festival – a day of remembrance as well – but that was only for the Jews – the Mosaic Law.

Since Christians are under the Abrahamic Covenant by faith, before the 4th commandment was even given, and before the Moral Law was given, then we, like Abraham, are saved by faith, and not by the works of the Law.

Therefore, we are not to live by the written code by Moses. Instead, we are to live in the Spirit - walking in the Spirit of Christ who frees us from sin's bondage to follow in New Way of the Spirit. Therefore, we fulfill the Law and the Prophets by a life of love by walking in the Spirit of Christ, not by the written code.

The ordinances of the Law (the Law of Moses) are a shadow of the Spiritual reality found in Christ

Ephesians 2:13-15
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For He himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Galatians 3:10-11 (NIV)
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

The Letter of the Law verses Spirit of the Law

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 NASB
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. . .

Blessings
 
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GenemZ

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IMO, the OP title matches the contents of the OP, i.e. John 14.
I.E. Isn't the title what these John 14 verses teach us?
You are confusing "indwelling" and "filling."

The Holy Spirit indwelling even the most disobedient, back-sliding, believer. He stays and remains in that person! He will never leave us nor forsake us. That is "indwelling." Taking up residence...

In contrast to simply indwelling? The obedient believer has the indwelling Spirit filling and controlling him. Leading and guiding him into all truth that believer has required of him by God for this lifetime on earth.

All believers.. Obedient and disobedient alike, have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only the obedient believers have the Filling of the Spirit.

That's the difference!
 
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Justin BT

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Why don't you explain for us John 14:15-16.

What is not clear about John 14:15-16? How do we not just take it at face value? Are you trying to assert that a distinction between "indwelling" and "filling" or "first" and "second" blessing is somehow incompatible with this passage? And if that is your assertion, how is it incompatible?
 
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BCsenior

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What is not clear about John 14:15-16? How do we not just take it at face value? Are you trying to assert that a distinction between "indwelling" and "filling" or "first" and "second" blessing is somehow incompatible with this passage? And if that is your assertion, how is it incompatible?
No, he is!
 
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Justin BT

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No, he is!

Sorry, Perhaps I am loosing track of who is asserting what. Genez asserted that there was a lack of distinction between indwelling and filling in the interpretation of John 14 here. I read your post to imply that you disagreed with Genez assertion that there was a lack of distinction around these ideas.

John 14:17 suggests operation of the Sprit amongst the Apostles in two different modes:

John 14:17 said:
ὅτι παρ᾿ ὑμῖν μένει καὶ ἐν ὑμῖν ἐστίν.

Jesus states here that the Spirit is παρα (with/alongside) them now (present/imperfective tense-form) and that the spirit will be (future tense-form) εν (in/inside) them. For the sake of clarity. Is the OP intending to assert that the salvific indwelling (εν) is dependent upon obedience, or the partnering alongside (παρα) is dependent upon obedience. I had assumed the OP was discussing the latter, not the former.

In my mind these are two different topics, one is the "once saved always saved" (εν) and the other one is "can grieving the Spirit result in a distancing of relationship" (παρα)
 
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