Are the narratives of Genesis a true revelation of God's works to Moses to correct other writings?

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Or -- literalism is bad theology.

No one has the right to question another's profession of Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

We are arguing a non-salvific issue.
I didn't question anyones profession of Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

I'm simply asking Theistic Evolutionist about the fall and original sin.
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am aware that there are many texts about a creation narrative from long before the OT was written (mainly written by Sumerians) about the creation, the flood, etc. My question is, were these a perversion of the true creation narrative of God and God revealed the true creation narrative and the history following it (Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham) to which God revealed the TRUTH to Moses? What are your opinions on this matter?
Personal belief: I believe that the creation narrative of the ancient Sumerians were somewhat true but completely perverted by Satan and in order to correct their error, God gave the pure form of what ACTUALLY happened to Moses in order to write down what happened from the "Beginning" up to Moses' time.
God speaks directly with Moses. Ex 33:11 " the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." The oral tradition is said to go back to Abraham although some say the oral tradition goes back to Adam.
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you believe God used evolution to create mankind....can you explain why we have a sin nature?
Romans 8:22 " We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time". All of creation is in a fallen condition and in need of redemption.
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God did tell us pretty much when He made the earth. Bishop Ussher did the math. If you have the time you can do the math.
The math is very easy to do from Adam to Abraham, more difficult after Abraham was born. He was the first to cross the river into the promised land. That is why Abraham and his descendants will be given the entire Arab plate: 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. That means all the air space and all the minerals.

We know it took God around 12.9 billion years to create Adam. Yet we find Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 5,990 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

fishmansf

Active Member
May 24, 2018
106
70
27
Seattle
✟25,211.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Sorry for such a late reply. But I believe that it is partially true because many of the ancient Sumerian creation accounts are extremely similar to Genesis creation narrative, even including things like the flood. But my thought is that God instilled in our souls and DNA and had revealed to ancient peoples the true creation narrative but in our sin and harlotry to other gods, Satan skewed the truth of the creation narrative so much so to the point where the bones of the creation narrative were there but the flesh was festering and disfigured. It was through Moses though that God corrected our understanding again and gave us the true narrative!
 
Upvote 0

Jadis40

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2004
963
192
50
Indiana, USA
✟47,145.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
God did tell us pretty much when He made the earth. Bishop Ussher did the math. He counted up the ages from the genealogy presented in the bible. He came to a date of 4004 BC. Ages from the LXX Greek Old Testament push it back slightly further. If you have the time you can do the math.

Some have argued that the genealogy isn't complete...which may be true....but it's not millions of years incomplete.

Then along comes scientific evidences for a young earth such as biomaterial found in dinosaur fossiled bones which shouldn't be there if the strata from which they were pulled are 65+ MY's old.

Ussher's chronology is complete garbage. I have a degree in history, and ancient history is a side interest of mine. Sumer predated the writing of Genesis. There was, by extension, no "global flood" in 2348 BC.

Egypt was in its 5th dynasty at the time.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,173
9,191
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,152,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ussher's chronology is complete garbage. I have a degree in history, and ancient history is a side interest of mine. Sumer predated the writing of Genesis. There was, by extension, no "global flood" in 2348 BC.

Egypt was in its 5th dynasty at the time.

I've just begun to try to get people to renotice (or for many notice for the first time) something so much more compelling and interesting in this story. So much more so that the geographical extent of the flood (or even orgin of the story, etc. all such details) is/are a red herring, a harmful distraction for everyone, believer and non believer. Arguing the surface details is I now think...a sort of cul-de-sac that makes most people just miss the surprising details at the start of the story even(!).

Instead, it's verses like 5-11, and the...hard to accept things they say, if you read them fully (in an adequate modern translation like the ESV, NASB, NIV, etc.), that we are really dealing with, in this story. The actually astounding part. Far more astounding, in the end, than if the flood covered the entire middle east or whatever, or was apocryphal or whatever else (stuff that in the end just does not matter). At this point, with all the internet arguing, so many people unfamiliar with the precise text wording will be missing the forest for the trees, and those of us that have been...floored, shocked, by that actual wording, probably need to start helping others find out about it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mathetes66

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 24, 2019
1,031
867
Pacifc Northwest
✟90,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We know it took God around 12.9 billion years to create Adam. Yet we find Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 5,990 years ago.

I am always amazed that this mysterious 'we know' group keeps popping up. It is never identified but the presumption is, that all, obviously, of course, believe this. Yet it is far from the truth. And using the two above, either one is true or the other is true, both can't be true from the logical law of non-contradiction.

Either God supposedly created the heavens & the earth, including Adam & Eve (no evolution from star dust & slime to eventually a man from lower forms) , roughly 6000 years ago or God did not create the universe in 6000 years, no creation even occurred, but only a big bang which has no verification method (supposedly only God was there) & miraculously happened, bringing into existence what didn't exist before, then letting it go by chance & natural selection, lower forms evolving into higher forms, etc., until man came on the scene, evolved--and all this supposedly took around 14 billion years...you have that right...14 billion years ago (measured by red shift which well known astronomers have shown that this isn't constant at all & not fully reliable).

Did God say He did it this way? Not in His revelation to mankind, the Holy Scriptures. Who says it happened this way? Recent scientists, many atheistic/agnostic in the last 75 years! Wow. Amazing. All this time up until recently, we were left in the dark.

One is true, one is false. Which one does each one of us (not we) believe.
 
Upvote 0

LoG

Veteran
Supporter
May 14, 2005
1,363
118
✟70,204.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
One is true, one is false. Which one does each one of us (not we) believe.

Personally I think scripture is pretty clear that the Heavens and Earth were made 6000 or so years ago, not created.
Heaven and Earth were created an unknown (scripturally) time ago and then was restored 6000 years or so ago. This is evidenced if one looks at Genesis 1 closely. The first Day He called only for Light (Gen 1:3) but yet by verse 6 and 9 he is separating water and exposing the Earth beneath them. Where did the water and Earth come from since it hadn't been created yet? One can only have those if they pre-existed Day 1. The only other way is to mangle the plain reading by insisting that the Heaven and Earth creation were included in Day 1. That then would beg the question of why God would create the Earth and then drown it in water only to spend 2 additional days cleaning up the water to expose the Earth and ready it for planting the following day. From the perspective of a builder, the sequence of events is for a repair or restoration event, not a brand new build/creation.
God's own perspective in other verses is that He is not the author of confusion, nor does He create formless and void like the creation is found in Gen 1:2.

That leaves the only alternative being that the Creation of Gen 1:1 was destroyed at some unspecified time in the past.
For those who would argue that God would have told us plainly about previous creations, I will point out the next 2 creative events, the 1000 year reign of Christ and the New Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down. For both of those it is mentioned the former things will not be remembered. That shows a pattern in whether God chooses to tell us about previous creations. He did supply some clues though for those willing to look a little deeper then a superficial reading.
I haven't found anything hinting at evolution yet so I have no opinion on that other than I suspect that the evidences are more in tune with previous creations, along with some microevolutions. speciations and hybridizations. That I think is why there is such a lack of the transitionals the evolutionists are looking for and why they had to come up with the Puctuated Equilibrium theory. The short bursts of evolution followed by speciation events are just another Creation event wherein God used some old and some new like how He did it in Genesis 1 and 2.

When one reads the scriptures it is important to remember that "create" and "made" are not the same thing. Neither are the words "Earth" and "world". God says what he means and means what He says. When different words are used for what appear to be the same thing, then it is not just for stylistic reasons but because the meaning He is conveying is different too.
 
Upvote 0

Mathetes66

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 24, 2019
1,031
867
Pacifc Northwest
✟90,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"Personally I think scripture is pretty clear...the Heavens & Earth were made 6000 or so years ago, not created. The only other way is to MANGLE the plain reading by insisting Heaven & Earth were included Day 1."

Mangle the text? Not plain? Not clear? Day 1 covers verses 1-3! Perhaps you don't understand the Hebrew word 'bara' which is translated 'created' in the English. It means to literally bring into existence something that was not existing previously. The many verses throughout Scripture that uses this word plainly show this. What didn't exist before, suddenly came into being. The Greek term in the NT is 'ex nihilo' out of nothing something is begotten.

I think the plethora of verses in Scripture using ' bara' plainly shows the opposite is true & that both what was created & what was made (formed out of pre-existing things) both occur in the 6000 years or so.

Your apparent ignoring of the contextual combining of the first 3 verses of Genesis 1 plainly shows this. It clearly states that IN THE BEGINNING--of the commencement of TIME, MATTER (visible & invisible) & SPACE continuum--

God did indeed CREATE the heavens & the earth on Day 1. However as vs 2 shows, God had yet to fully form the earth & the heavens & then to fill them. That occurred on the following 5 days.

John 1:1-3 shows the same thing. IN THE BEGINNING--WAS THE WORD. At the time of the initial time-space-matter continuum, the Word was already existing. The Word (Son), the Father & the Holy Spirit were all there prior to the beginning. They started it all at a point in time--THE BEGINNING.

It states that Jesus created all things in the beginning. All things CAME INTO BEING through Him & apart from Him NOTHING CAME INTO EXISTENCE that has come into existence. 'EX NIHILO!' Just as Genesis 1:1 states.

At the very beginning of day one, the earth is only described as not having been fully formed yet to where it could be made inhabitable. God will call those things He created into existence & fill the earth & heavens. What He does is GOOD. The earth & the heavens were empty after being created-- & had to be filled with the host of all that God created & made (plants, animals, mankind, planets, etc.) Thus God had to make, fashion, form both to be inhabitable.

Isaiah 45:9-12,18 Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker—one clay pot among many. Does the clay ask the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’? Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel & His Maker: “How dare you question Me concerning My sons, or instruct Me about the work of My hands?

It is I who MADE the earth & CREATED man upon it. It was MY HANDS that stretched out the heavens & I ordained all their host. (not a big bang) For this is what the LORD SAYS-- He who CREATED the heavens, He is God; He who FORMED & MADE (FASHIONED) the earth, He ESTABLISHED (literally, erected) IT; He did NOT CREATE IT TO BE EMPTY (void, in vain), but FORMED it to be INHABITED-- He says: "I AM--the LORD & there is no other.

Did God create the light? Yes. Day 1. Did God create the darkness, which is mentioned in verse 2? Yes. Day 1. How do we know since it does not specifically say God created darkness here in ch. 1?

Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture & one can make a mistake when not taking the whole counsel of Scripture into account, harmonizing & progressively seeing what God reveals elsewhere that helps us understand.

Isa 45:7 I form the light & CREATE DARKNESS.
Gen 1:4 And seeing that the light was good, God separated the light from the darkness.

Darkness in vs 2 also talks about the 'abyss'. (Greek Septuagint uses this word for darkness) Jesus in Matt 25 talks about the abyss/hell, that was originally PREPARED for the devil & his angels! This is part of the INVISIBLE creation that God does reference right in Genesis ch. 1 which many miss!

What is brief revelation at the beginning is progressively manifested with more details throughout Scripture. Jesus was continually pointing out that people did not know THE SCRIPTURES (plural), that they hadn't read rightly or had forgotten what was written, etc.


One needs to recognize that Genesis is the book of BEGINNINGS & gives the RECORDS of those beginnings. The whole rest of Scripture CONFIRMS what is plainly said in Genesis & progressively reveals more of what was meant by what God said there & thereafter.

The problem is that people have suppressed the truth about God in unrighteousness & Who He is & says He is & what He has created, formed, made & filled--& exchanged it for a lie. Mankind apart from God has become darkened in their understanding, not wanting to retain God in their mind at all but choosing to worship & serve with their time, life & money--nature & some random evolution--rather than the Creator.

Jer 31:35,36 Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light BY DAY & the FIXED ORDER of the moon & the stars for light BY NIGHT, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD of hosts (heaven's armies) is His name. Only if this fixed order departed from My presence, declares the LORD, would Israel’s descendants ever cease to be a nation before Me.

Deut 4:19 And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven & see the sun & the moon & the stars & all the host of heaven & be drawn away & worship them & serve them, those which the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Deut 17:3 ...And going to worship other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven--which I have forbidden--

Gen 1:14,18 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE DAY & THE NIGHT & to MARK THE SEASONS & THE DAYS & THE YEARS.

We can do this like a clock. Sun dials & calendars have been used by man for thousands of years & he has been able to mark off days, nights, months, years & seasons, etc. Knowing God's time frame day by day from what has been made demonstrates God's fixed order & physical laws & by Christ all things hold together by His eternal power & Deity. Because God is eternal, 1000 years is to Him like a day or a watch in the night passing--but to mankind--God's fixed order of calibrating & marking off time is precise.

The rotation & placement of the earth, sun & moon & stars--is used for navigation, to make a fixed order that mankind can measure & depend upon. The moon is exactly where it should be to regulate the tides of the oceans! Amazing! And God talks about doing all these things in Job 38-42, questioning Job as to his finite understanding of God's infinite wisdom & power to both create & to form, fill & sustain the heavens & the earth.

Job 38:12ff "In your days, have you (Job) COMMANDED the morning or assigned the dawn its place, that it might spread to the ends of the earth? Have you journeyed to the vents of the sea or walked in the trenches of the deep? Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?"

"Where is the way to the home of light? Do you know where darkness resides, so you can lead it back to its border? Do you know the paths to its home? SURELY YOU KNOW, for you were already born! And the number of YOUR DAYS is great!"

"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loosen the belt of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear & her cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens? Who has put wisdom in the heart or given understanding to the mind?"

One shouldn't, in my opinion speculatively IMAGINE billions of years--God hasn't designed his creation that way nor the plain meaning in Scripture for normal people then & now to be able to understand.

The fixed order has been there ever since the beginning of the creation of the heavens & the earth. Man has been using it ever since the beginning when Adam & Eve were created. They KNEW what a day was, they knew what a week was, they knew what a lunar month was, they knew what a year was, they knew how to do geneaologies & how many years a person lived. God gave His revelation to normal people living normal lives, talking in language & concepts people could understand.

How is it that man in very recent history has fallen prey to his independence apart from God & has departed from this order, speculating billions of years of naturalistic evolution & selection by random chance. God laughs at men's foolishness & not following the fixed order that He created in the very beginning!

Genesis 1:18 ...To preside over the day & the night & to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. Jesus is described as the bright & morning star, His brightness & glory shining as the sun. God IS LIGHT. He was a flaming pillar of fire by night for the Israelites, that moved to show them where to go!

There is no problem with Day 1 having light & darkness. It is ONLY a problem for theistic evolutionists who choose to believe man's naturalistic & foolish reasoning that excludes that which is supernatural, God's power & attributes that can easily do this. Jesus' words echo loudly, 'You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.'

Daniel 2:22 He reveals the deep & hidden things; He knows what lies in darkness & light dwells with Him.

Psalm 36:9 For with You is the fountain of life; in Your light we SEE LIGHT.

Mark 9:3 His clothes became radiantly white, brighter than any launderer on earth could bleach them.

Mankind has no excuse before God for not realizing He exists & is the Creator of the universe. God has made Himself known within the heart of man & also from without through His creation of the orderly universe. (to be continued)
 
Upvote 0

Mathetes66

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 24, 2019
1,031
867
Pacifc Northwest
✟90,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 1:17ff "For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God...For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness & unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness SUPPRESS THE TRUTH, because that which is known about God is evident WITHIN them; for God made it evident to them."

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen."

"For ever since the world was CREATED, people have seen the earth & sky. Through everything God MADE comes understanding, so they can clearly SEE HIS INVISIBLE ATTRIBUTES—His eternal power & DEITY. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

I Tim 1:17 To the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honor & glory forever & ever. Amen.

There was no chaos, no destruction of His creation! Satan didn't have that kind of power! That is foolish to believe that he could do that. Satan falling like lightning from heaven in no way describes he has any kind of power to bring God's GOOD creation to chaos! That is a lie & a myth. God nowhere describes in Scripture that Satan ever did this.

Sin, death, destruction & corruption came from man not God or Satan. (Romans 5) Created animals, birds, etc. become extinct primarily through man's wickedness & destructive ways, not through some natural selection process. God knew that, too & recorded it for our understanding. God programmed adaptation into His created things; they didn't come by some impersonal, random chance selection. People so easily forget man SELECTIVELY breeds to try & get favorable outcomes, whether plants or animals. He manipulates DNA, often without realizing the full ramifications of what might happen!

Romans 5:12ff Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man & death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned...Death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man...So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification & life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I Cor 15:21ff For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 8:20ff For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay & brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Job 12:7 Ask the animals & they will instruct you; ask the birds of the air & they will tell you.

Hosea 4:1-3 HEAR THE WORD of the LORD, O children of Israel, for the LORD has a case against the people of the land: “There is NO truth, no LOVING DEVOTION & NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOD in the land! Cursing & lying, murder & stealing & adultery are rampant; one act of bloodshed follows another. For this reason THE LAND MOURNS & everyone who lives in it is passing away. Even the wild animals, the birds of the sky & the fish of the sea are disappearing.

Jer 12:4 How long will the land mourn? How long will the plants in every field remain dried up? The animals & the birds are disappearing (being swept away) because people are wicked. They think that God doesn't know what they are doing & their latter end.

Jer 4:28 Therefore THE EARTH WILL MOURN & the heavens above will grow dark. I have SPOKEN, I have PURPOSED & I will not relent or turn back.

The heavens & the earth are the work of God, not the naturalistic mechanism of physics & random evolution.
Psalm 102:25 Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth & the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS…

Isa 40:21 Do YOU not know? Have YOU not heard? Has it not been declared TO YOU FROM THE BEGINNING?Have YOU not understood SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH?

Matthew 19:4 Haven’t you READ the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They RECORD that FROM THE BEGINNING ‘God CREATED them male & female.’”

Jer 10:12 (Jer 51:15) God MADE the earth BY HIS POWER (NOT a Big Bang); He ESTABLISHED the world BY HIS WISDOM (NOT by natural selection) & stretched out the heavens BY HIS UNDERSTANDING. (not man's finite speculations & theories)

Heb 11:1-3 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for & assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that THE UNIVERSE WAS FORMED AT GOD'S COMMAND, so that what is seen was NOT MADE out of what was visible.

The natural theory of origins & evolution negates as a presupposition the supernatural & the invisible realm which is just as real as the visible realm.

Colossians 1:15,16 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER ALL CREATION because in Him were CREATED ALL THINGS--in the heavens & upon the earth, the visible & the INVISIBLE...

Rom 11:36 For FROM Him & THROUGH Him & TO Him are ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

Eccl 3:11 God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, & He has also placed ETERNITY in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end.

8:16 I saw every work OF GOD--& that a man is unable to comprehend the work that is done under the sun. Despite his efforts to search it out, he cannot find its MEANING; even if the wise man CLAIMS to know, he is unable to comprehend.

I Cor 8:6 ...Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME INTO EXISTENCE & FOR WHOM WE EXIST. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came into being & THROUGH WHOM we exist.

Though mankind cannot find true meaning for his existence in nature, he can find meaning & purpose in God, for whom & through whom we exist.

Eccl 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God, the Maker of all things.

Genesis 1:1,2 IN THE BEGINNING, God CREATED the heavens & the earth. The earth was UNFORMED & EMPTY (UNFILLED) & darkness was over the face of the DEEP & the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD SAYS-- He who CREATED the heavens, He is God; He who FORMED & MADE (FASHIONED) the earth, He ESTABLISHED (literally, erected) IT; He did NOT CREATE IT TO BE EMPTY (void, in vain), but FORMED it to be INHABITED-- He says: "I AM--the LORD & there is no other.

Formed: Hebrew, 'mold into, fashion as a potter with clay.'

Job 33:6 "I am just like you before God; I was also FORMED out of clay."

God did not merely form man of dust from the ground, but fashioned & put in Adam & Eve, the mother of all the living human race, the DNA for all mankind!

Prov 30:4 Who has ESTABLISHED ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH? What is His name & what is the name of His Son--SURELY YOU KNOW!

Isa 51:13 But you have FORGOTTEN the LORD, Your Maker, who STRETCHED OUT the heavens & laid the FOUNDATIONS of the earth.

Isa 42:5 He who CREATED the heavens & STRETCHED THEM OUT, who SPREAD OUT the earth & its offspring,
48:13 Surely My own hand ESTABLISHED the earth & My right hand SPREAD OUT the heavens...

44:24 Who formed you from the womb...who has made all things, who alone STRETCHED OUT the heavens, who by Myself SPREAD OUT the earth...

45:12 It is I who made the earth & CREATED man upon it. It was MY HANDS that STRETCHED OUT the heavens & I ORDAINED all their host.

And the Lord GOD formed... (Gen 2:7,8,19; Job 10:8; 33:6; 37:10; Ps 65:6; 94:9; 95:5, etc.)

And the Lord God filled & said/commanded to fill... (Gen 1:22,28; 9:1; Lev 25:19; 26:5; I Chron 16:27; Job 8:21; Ps 16:11; 81:10; 96:6; 104:16; Jer 23:24; Ezek 36:11; Hag 2:7; Rom 15:13; Eph 4:10; Col 1:9,24; etc.)

And there was evening & there was morning: Day One; Day Two; Day Three...Day Seven.

Gen 7:4 For SEVEN DAYS FROM NOW, I will send rain on the earth FOR 40 DAYS & NIGHTS & I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”

Exodus 20:9-11 For 6 DAYS you may labor & do all your work, but the 7TH DAY is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; ON IT you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates. BECAUSE IN 6 DAYS the Lord made the heavens & the earth & the sea & ALL THAT IS IN THEM--& He rested ON THE 7TH DAY; THEREFORE the Lord blessed the Sabbath DAY--& set it apart as holy.

1:21,27 And God CREATED great whales AND every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind AND every winged bird after his kind: and God saw that it was good. So God CREATED man in His own image, in the image of God He CREATED him; male & female He CREATED them.

Matthew 19:4 Haven’t you READ the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They RECORD that FROM THE BEGINNING ‘God CREATED them male & female.’”

Gen 5:1 This is the RECORD of the generations of Adam. IN THE DAY that God CREATED man, in the likeness of God He made him; male & female He CREATED them & blessed them & called their name Adam, IN THE DAY WHEN they were CREATED.

2:4 These are the RECORDS of the heavens AND of the earth WHEN THEY WERE CREATED, IN THE DAY that Yahweh God MADE the earth & the heavens...

(As many commentators point out, Genesis is structured by 10 uses of the word toledoth, "records of, historical accounts of, generations of." The toledoth statements head the various sections of Genesis. These are the records of/historical accounts of/generations of: Heavens & Earth (2.4) Adam (5.1) Noah (6:9) Noah’s sons (10.1) Shem (11:10) Terah/Abraham (11:27) Ishmael (25:12-13; 1 Chron 1:29) Isaac (25.19) Esau (36.1,9) Jacob (37.2)

God & His Creation; Adam & the Fall; Noah & the Global Flood; Ham, Shem & Japeth & the Table of Nations; Abraham, Isaac & Jacob & the Nation of Israel from which comes the promised Messiah; etc.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day & sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from ALL HIS WORK which God CREATED AND MADE.

6:7 And Yahweh said, I will destroy man whom I have CREATED from the face of the earth; from man to beast, & the creeping thing & the birds of the air; for I regret that I have made them.

Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie & worshiped & served CREATED THINGS rather than the CREATOR--who is forever praised. Amen.

Exodus 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all your people I will do marvels, such as have not been CREATED in all the earth, nor in any nation & all the people among which you are shall see the work of Yahweh: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with you.

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the LORD. You CREATED THE HEAVENS, the highest heavens with all their host, THE EARTH & all that is on it, the seas & all that is in them. You give life to all things & the heavenly host worships You.

Ps 89:12 89:12 The north & the south you have CREATED them: Tabor & Hermon shall rejoice in Your name.
Ps 102:18 ...Written for the generation to come & the people who WILL BE CREATED will praise Yahweh.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that THE UNIVERSE WAS FORMED AT GOD'S COMMAND...so that what we now see did NOT COME from anything that can be seen.

Ps 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for He gave the COMMAND & they were CREATED.
Psalm 104:30 You CREATED all of them by your Spirit & You renew the face of the ground.

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth & CREATED man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, & all their host have I COMMANDED.

Eccl 12:1 Remember now your CREATOR in the days of your youth, while the evil days do not come, nor the years draw near, when you shall say, I have no pleasure in them.

Isaiah 4:5 And Yahweh will CREATE upon every dwelling place of mount Zion & upon her assemblies, a cloud & smoke by day & the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

40:26 Lift up your eyes on high & behold Who has CREATED these things, who brings out their host by number. He calls them all by names by the greatness of His might, for He is strong in power; not one fails.

40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard, that the everlasting God, Yahweh, the CREATOR OF THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, does not faint, nor grows weary? There is no searching of His understanding.

41:20 That they may SEE & KNOW & CONSIDER & UNDERSTAND together, that the hand of Yahweh has done this & the Holy One of Israel has CREATED it.

42:5 Thus says God Yahweh, He who CREATED the heavens & stretched them out; He who spread forth the earth & that which comes out of it; He who gives breath to the people upon it & spirit to those who walk in it:

43:1 But now thus says Yahweh who CREATED you, O Jacob & He who formed you, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed you, I have called you by your name; you are Mine.

43:7 Even every one who is called by My name: for I have CREATED him for My glory, I have formed him; yes, I have made him.

43:15 I am Yahweh, your Holy One, the CREATOR of Israel, your King.
45:7 I FORM the light & CREATE DARKNESS; I make peace & CREATE calamity. I, Yahweh, do all these things.

45:8 Drop down, you heavens, from above & let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open & let them bring forth salvation & let righteousness spring up together; I, Yahweh, have CREATED it.

45:18 For thus says Yahweh who CREATED the heavens; God himself that FORMED the earth & made it; He has established it, HE DID NOT CREATE IT EMPTY (IN VAIN), He FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED. I am Yahweh & there is none else.

48:7 They are CREATED NOW & NOT FROM THE BEGINNING; even before THE DAY WHEN you heard them not; lest you should say, Behold, I knew them.

65:17 For, behold, I CREATE a NEW heavens & a new earth & the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Ezekiel 28:13,15 You have been IN EDEN, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz & the diamond, the beryl, the onyx & the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald & the carbuncle & gold; the workmanship of your tabrets (drums) & of your pipes was prepared in you IN THE DAY THAT YOU WERE CREATED. You were perfect in your ways FROM THE DAY THAT YOU WERE CREATED, UNTIL iniquity was found in you.

Amos 4:13 He who FORMS THE MOUNTAINS, Who CREATES the wind & Who reveals His thoughts to mankind, Who turns the MORNING DAWN TO DARKNESS & treads on the heights of the earth-- the LORD God Almighty is His name.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? Has not one God CREATED us?

God first created the heavens & the earth out of nothing; He simply spoke & commanded & they appeared from nothing. They were yet unformed & unfilled until God made them formed & filled. At the beginning, things didn't have shape or form nor were the heavens & the earth filled yet.

Has not the LORD made them one, having a portion of the Spirit? And why one? Because He seeks godly offspring.

Jer 10:12 (Jer 51:15) God MADE the earth BY HIS POWER (NOT a Big Bang); He ESTABLISHED the world BY HIS WISDOM (NOT by natural selection) & stretched out the heavens BY HIS UNDERSTANDING. (not man's)

Eccl 3:10,11 I have seen the burden that God has laid on men to occupy them. God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed eternity in the human heart so that people cannot fathom (discover & comprehend) what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end.

"God's own perspective in other verses is that He is not the author of confusion, nor does He create formless and void like the creation is found in Gen 1:2. That leaves the only alternative being that the Creation of Gen 1:1 was destroyed at some unspecified time in the past. For those who would argue that God would have told us plainly about previous creations, I will point out the next 2 creative events, the 1000 year reign of Christ and the New Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down. For both of those it is mentioned the former things will not be remembered."

I have given an abundance of Scripture to show that there are not multiple creations IN THE BEGINNING. This is reading into the Scriptures something that just isn't there. It is a weak argument. God created once in the beginning, the heavens & the earth & then formed them to be inhabited & filled them. It did not stay without formation for long, only on Day 1. It did not stay unfilled or empty for long, only on Day 1.

This creation was good & at the end very good! Other Scriptures shown confirm this. Then Adam & Eve sinned against God & for the first time the law of sin & death entered the universe & fell under a curse & things became corrupt & decayable. This chaos & corruption entered ONCE--into that first creation--through one man, the first Adam. All things will be reconciled & brought to perfection once again by the Last Adam.

The next creation will be the new heavens & the new earth in which righteousness dwells & no more sin or death like the previous creation. This does NOT occur in the millenial reign. Some things change, such as no devil or demons to bring about the influence of evil--but humanity then turns against the Messiah at the end of it when Satan is loosed once again.

The only other creation is the one in which the kingdom of God is among those who believe, a kingdom without end, coming down out of heaven, prepared for His bride, in a new heavens & a new earth. No more sin, no more sorrow, no more physical death.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,641.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am aware that there are many texts about a creation narrative from long before the OT was written (mainly written by Sumerians) about the creation, the flood, etc. My question is, were these a perversion of the true creation narrative of God and God revealed the true creation narrative and the history following it (Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham) to which God revealed the TRUTH to Moses? What are your opinions on this matter?
Personal belief: I believe that the creation narrative of the ancient Sumerians were somewhat true but completely perverted by Satan and in order to correct their error, God gave the pure form of what ACTUALLY happened to Moses in order to write down what happened from the "Beginning" up to Moses' time.

Yes, I believe Mosses wrote down the correct historical account of creation in Genesis. I think the story got passed down more or less correctly up until the Tower of Babble from where it became more distorted since people groups broke off with different languages and couldn't confer with one another. They took the stories of both creation and the flood with them but as it got passed down the stories got changed. Not necessarily by Satan as even in a game of Whispers a single sentence gets changed along the way. I tend to think one person thought they would embellish it, or this piece wasn't needed, or they simply got something wrong. Satan could also have had a hand in changing the stories, but I think people can do that well enough all by themselves.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums