The fatal flaw of Universalism

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I realize this is a thorny subject but Jesus clearly stated that He did not come to abolish the law.
Yes and no.
This is a good discussion.
Yes, this is a thorny subject, but Jesus did come to abolish the law. Obviously you are referring to Matthew 5:17. This is an often misunderstood passage. It does not say "the law", it says "the Law or the Prophets". (so what, right?) He was referring to the books prophetically, not the law itself. He explained what he meant in this scripture. (compare to Matthew 5:17 below also)

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Are you even reading my posts? I conceded that that those washing their robes may be some in the lake of fire and the dogs, sorcerers etc. outside the city but nowhere does it say all.
Again I mention in vs. 11 the angel said "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still." The angel did not say "he that is unjust let him become just, he which is filthy let him wash and become clean."

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
The converse of vs. 14 is "cursed are they that do not do his commandments, they have not the right to the tree of life, and may not enter in through the gates into the city."
There is no salvation mentioned after vs. 14 and outside the city vs. 15 there are still "dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." Of whom the angel in vs. 11 said let them continue their evil ways.
The problem with your claim is that you admit "some" but not "all" as the basis for your belief. Even if that is true, don't you still have to explain away how "some" in the lake of fire still get to wash their robes? According to your ECT belief, don't "all" of those (no exceptions) in the LOF never get a chance for redemption? Am I missing something here?

The angel in v.11 is simply making a statement of fact with no reference to the future whatsoever. However, the very next verse which you ignore uses the present tense points to Jesus' coming soon. Whom is He coming for?? The saints are already in the New Jerusalem. You have some explaining to do. And while you're at it, why don't you also explain away v.17 where the invitation to come is still being extended to those who are hearing, thirsting and willing. If all the saints are in the City, then why is this invitation still being extended?
And why do you cite the converse of Rev 22:14 when v. 3 states that there will no longer be a curse? No longer any curse means ALL are reconciled to God aren't they?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes and no.
This is a good discussion.
Yes, this is a thorny subject, but Jesus did come to abolish the law. Obviously you are referring to Matthew 5:17. This is an often misunderstood passage. It does not say "the law", it says "the Law or the Prophets". (so what, right?) He was referring to the books prophetically, not the law itself. He explained what he meant in this scripture. (compare to Matthew 5:17 below also)

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Jesus did not abolish either one. I referred to the law because it was what you disagreed with. The law points to Jesus. The prophets likewise point to Jesus. If you mean that Matt 5:17 means one OR the other - meaning the law was abolished then you are still faced with Rom 3:31 which contradicts your claim that the law was abolished. Paul wrote that faith establishes the law.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
<SM>Jesus' entire mission, his raison d'etre, if you will, is to save the world from death, package it up and present it to the Father with a big bow on it, with a card saying 'Love always, your devoted son'.
Not to condemn but to save (hint: it's in his name). You're in effect saying he'll fail in his mission, that some nuts will be too tough for the Spirit to crack. Well, you may be too tough for me to crack der Alter, but when the Spirit shows up on your Damascus Rd, you won't stand a chance lol. The hound
of heaven will retrieve your heart and lope back happy.<SM>
Don't concern yourself about me, my salvation was made sure probably before you were born. How and when does that change of heart happen to the sinners in the lake of fire?
People who are saved in this life, how does it happen? Through their own efforts or is God the author of their salvation?
If Jesus is going to change the hearts and minds of sinners in the LOF why does Jesus/God let sinners live like the devil knowing they are going to be punished, why doesn't God/Jesus change their hearts in this life? Scripture please.

I wish there was a 'hound of heaven' scripture. It's a lovely metaphor imho.

The torment is what is experienced subjectively by sinners who can't 'overcome' by relinquishing their sin attachments ('washing the robes' which can only mean cleansing the flesh of sin). It's like one preacher said of trying to clean his baby's teeth, and she screams in terror like the parents are trying to kill her. The sinner wants to hold on to his pride, his lust etc. In his blindness he doesn't 'get' that these things are death-inducing, and the more he resists, the more prolonged and painful the experience becomes.

A lesser form of this is the admonition to several of the backsliding churches to 'buy gold refined in the fire'. It's also the reason death is thrown into the fire. Anything impure is cast in. Because it's a process of 'making all things new'. Also why there's sulphur/ brimstone/ theion in the fire. It has a well-known purifying function.

If they'd translated 'fire' as 'pure', I suggest this wouldn't be such a challenge for you.
Strong's Greek: 4442. πῦρ (pur) -- fire. As you're aware, the fire of the Spirit is that which purifies and cleanses:

4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.


So the reprobates are refuseniks, and they need all the 'encouragement' they can get from the Spirit and the bride to turn to Christ. The gates of the City of God are always open, you can always wash your robes in the lake outside (take the first step, we'll support you!), otherwise just remain outside being a vile klutz still. So it's just a matter of time (as critical mass has already been reached).

So it seems that most are thrown into the fire, but have the choice there to resist or submit to Christ. If it's anything like the baptism I received when the HS changed me, I don't think they'll be holding out for too long. Who can stand, after all?

I've just canvassed a number of scriptures of which I think you're well aware, der Alter. So I won't bore you with formal references. If you have a different interpretation of 'washing robes', 'gold refined in the fire', 'ever-open gates', and the function of holy fire, by all means.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I have answered every question you guys have thrown at me, you can't deny that.

It's all to no avail, you will not even consider the points I make. I am wrong before I speak.

You have chosen what you will and will not believe. So be it!

I'm tired of my words being thrown to the wind.

Non answered questions =

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

1 Timothy 4:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

Ephesians 1:7-10 King James Version (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Non answered questions =

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

1 Timothy 4:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?

Ephesians 1:7-10 King James Version (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

I will add a question for you Charles....

If the Lake of Fire is one, or all of the four hells of Scripture, how is hell cast into itself?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus did not abolish either one. I referred to the law because it was what you disagreed with. The law points to Jesus. The prophets likewise point to Jesus. If you mean that Matt 5:17 means one OR the other - meaning the law was abolished then you are still faced with Rom 3:31 which contradicts your claim that the law was abolished. Paul wrote that faith establishes the law.
When I read the gospels I see Jesus deconstructing the law. (beginning with Matt.5) And the Apostle Paul demolishes it. Especially in the book of Galatians. ("Who has bewitched you?" - Gal.3:1)

Here is a verse below that uses the word "law/Law" both ways. First to refer to the law itself (the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses) and secondly as a reference to the Books of the Law. (the Pentateuch - the Law of Moses) The NIV helps us by capitalizing the "L" when it refers to the Books. But unfortunately this does not happen in every case.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
... you are still faced with Rom 3:31 which contradicts your claim that the law was abolished.
Verse 28 tells us that "a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Romans 3:28-31
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus did not abolish either one. I referred to the law because it was what you disagreed with. The law points to Jesus. The prophets likewise point to Jesus. If you mean that Matt 5:17 means one OR the other - meaning the law was abolished then you are still faced with Rom 3:31 which contradicts your claim that the law was abolished. Paul wrote that faith establishes the law.
I agree that the books of the Law point to Jesus and that the books of the Prophets point to Jesus. That's what Matt.5:17 says to me. It is not to confirm the law itself. IMO

The "or" in Matt:5:17 means neither. He came to abolish neither the books of the Law nor the books of the Prophets.

The word "abolish" seems very awkward to me. Makes it easy to misunderstand what he meant. Which was explained in Luke. (Luke 24:44)

There are many interesting scriptures in this regard. (Law and the Prophets)
This one below says they "were proclaimed until John". Then what?
This is where the deconstruction of the law begins. IMHO

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have answered every question you guys have thrown at me, you can't deny that.

It's all to no avail, you will not even consider the points I make. I am wrong before I speak.

You have chosen what you will and will not believe. So be it!

I'm tired of my words being thrown to the wind.
I had written earlier about my observation that some have made the Bible into an idol. Putting a book above a personal relationship with God. As if a stained glass window was being used to view the God who is sitting right in front of us. Thus obscuring the view of the person on the other side.

I think the same thing can be said for doctrines. They can become an idol. Especially when used to divide the Body of Christ. This is one great aspect of Restorationism. Those of us that can understand and accept it also accept each other even though we have differing doctrines on other issues. There is a sense of freedom that comes from the realization that doctrine doesn't matter. Granted, there are some black and white issues that are important, but the gray areas don't matter. In fact, there is no consensus as to what the black and white issues are. And it's not even worth fighting about.

The bottom line.
If your doctrine is dividing the body of Christ, some serious introspection is in order.
The standard defense being to disown those whose doctrine differs, claiming they are NOT in the Body of Christ. (sound familiar?)

Galatians 5:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:18-21 New International Version (NIV)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When I read the gospels I see Jesus deconstructing the law. (beginning with Matt.5) And the Apostle Paul demolishes it. Especially in the book of Galatians. ("Who has bewitched you?" - Gal.3:1)

Here is a verse below that uses the word "law/Law" both ways. First to refer to the law itself (the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses) and secondly as a reference to the Books of the Law. (the Pentateuch - the Law of Moses) The NIV helps us by capitalizing the "L" when it refers to the Books. But unfortunately this does not happen in every case.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
The Greek was originally all caps so the NIV translators have taken liberty to distinguish between the two, thus inserting their own opinion/interpretation and perhaps even bias into the text. Not always a wise thing to do. The law never saved anyone - only faith in Jesus saves.
Why would Paul demolish the law when he himself continued to observe it? Jesus also observed the law.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Verse 28 tells us that "a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Romans 3:28-31
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
There is no discrepancy. As I wrote in my previous post, the law never saved anyone. The law is upheld because it points to its ultimate fulfillment in Jesus. Only faith saves; not works of the law.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I agree that the books of the Law point to Jesus and that the books of the Prophets point to Jesus. That's what Matt.5:17 says to me. It is not to confirm the law itself. IMO

The "or" in Matt:5:17 means neither. He came to abolish neither the books of the Law nor the books of the Prophets.

The word "abolish" seems very awkward to me. Makes it easy to misunderstand what he meant. Which was explained in Luke. (Luke 24:44)

There are many interesting scriptures in this regard. (Law and the Prophets)
This one below says they "were proclaimed until John". Then what?
This is where the deconstruction of the law begins. IMHO

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.
Indeed. The Law & Prophets were proclaimed in the ministry of John the Baptist. But then Jesus arrived on the scene preaching the Good News. Jesus fulfilled the law; not abolished it. The ministry of John the Baptist pointed to Jesus. Same thing with Lk 24:44. It appears to me that you equate fulfillment with termination which I question. For example, a college graduate can state that he fulfilled the requirements of his major. This is a true statement as he graduated with a major in Mechanical Engineering. Did the requirements for obtaining this degree pass away? No, the requirements remain exactly the same and he also fulfilled them.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2Thes. 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

It's not so much "mistranslation" as a misunderstanding of the most literal translation. "Everlasting punishment" actually means "results that are not temporary".

For example hitting your hand with a hammer results in temporary punishment.
Cutting your hand off results in everlasting punishment.

Scripture refers to the second one.
From the cause and effect, it means the effect is permanent.
You are "cut off" from the option to have faith in God.
While we were still sinners, He sent his only Son to die for our sins. Is there something more required after your death to change your mind about His sincerity?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why would Paul demolish the law when he himself continued to observe it? Jesus also observed the law.
Paul did in fact demolish the law. Claims that he continued to observe it are questionable.
Same with Christ. What do these verses tell us?

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Greek was originally all caps so the NIV translators have taken liberty to distinguish between the two, thus inserting their own opinion/interpretation and perhaps even bias into the text. Not always a wise thing to do. The law never saved anyone - only faith in Jesus saves.
I applaud the clarity that the NIV translators brought to the text. It is clear that these texts were referring to the books. In English they SHOULD BE capitalized.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.”

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Acts 28:23
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Indeed. The Law & Prophets were proclaimed in the ministry of John the Baptist. But then Jesus arrived on the scene preaching the Good News. Jesus fulfilled the law; not abolished it. The ministry of John the Baptist pointed to Jesus. Same thing with Lk 24:44. It appears to me that you equate fulfillment with termination which I question. For example, a college graduate can state that he fulfilled the requirements of his major. This is a true statement as he graduated with a major in Mechanical Engineering. Did the requirements for obtaining this degree pass away? No, the requirements remain exactly the same and he also fulfilled them.
It appears that you are using the same definition for "the law" and "the Law". They are two different things. The Ten Commandments are part of the law, which is found in the Law. (the books of the Law)

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
47
Groningen
✟60,922.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So Jesus did not know what He was talking about when He said "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mar_3:29? Since according to you "nobody will end up committing the unforgiveable sin."
Why would Jesus warn about a sin that nobody can or will commit?
Perhaps His warning has the desired effect.

It's just a theory anyway, in light of the many verses that proclaim universalism (I know you disagree).

If all be reconciled to God in Christ, then there can't be a bunch of unforgiven people left.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...It appears to me that you equate fulfillment with termination which I question. ...
Two different things. Jesus fulfilled the Law. (capital "L") But he terminated the law. (small "l") Which means the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.
 
Upvote 0