The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

Andrewn

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"In Catholic teaching there are six sins that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are:

  1. Despair (believing that one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness);
  2. Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance);
  3. Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another's growth in virtue and perfection);
  4. Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition);
  5. Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for sins);
  6. Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that, while no sin is in fact 'unforgivable,' these sins represent a deliberate refusal to accept the infinite mercy of God; a person committing such a sin refuses God's forgiveness, which can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss."

Eternal sin - Wikipedia

In light of the discussion in this thread, what do you think of this?
 
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Justin BT

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So are you implying logically that the Holy Spirit comes and goes according to a believer's obedience (as opposed to vs 16), or that what we consider disobedience is not really disobedience, seeing as how the Holy Spirit will never leave us (according to vs 16), or something else --perhaps you are referring to a mindset of obedience?

The OP is not clear on this, it’s not clear if he means the Spirit completely leaves and comes back (under the framework of a “single blessing/baptism” type of system) or if the OP means there is a two phase (sealing/sanctifying followed by a leading/blessing/equipping/gifting function) system.

If the “second blessing” situation is assumed then It’s not too odd to believe the spirit might avoids or not based on a persons willingness to submit. I must say I’ve always wondered about this myself.
 
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Dave L

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Obedience is the result, not the means of having the Holy Spirit. In the case of the Corinthians, they had the Baptism and were getting drunk at communion. Even one who we know was saved was involved in incest. But they did not have the fullness of the Spirit which comes through repentance and holy living.
 
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Andrewn

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Obedience is the result, not the means of having the Holy Spirit. . . . the fullness of the Spirit which comes through repentance and holy living.
Is this an oxymoron?

Even one who we know was saved was involved in incest.
Is this another oxymoron?

In the case of the Corinthians, they had the Baptism and were getting drunk at communion.
Is this in your Bible?
 
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Hazelelponi

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So they won't do this sort of thing.

like make obnoxious threads on internet forums that diminish Christ's work, and elevate man's?

Without the Holy Spirit, no man is able to obey God in truth:

"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (Ezekiel 36:27)

The Spirit of God isn't the prize people get for doing right, Hes the cause.
 
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setst777

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"In Catholic teaching there are six sins that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are:

  1. Despair (believing that one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness);
  2. Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance);
  3. Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another's growth in virtue and perfection);
  4. Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition);
  5. Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for sins);
  6. Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that, while no sin is in fact 'unforgivable,' these sins represent a deliberate refusal to accept the infinite mercy of God; a person committing such a sin refuses God's forgiveness, which can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss."

Eternal sin - Wikipedia

In light of the discussion in this thread, what do you think of this?

setst RE:
Blasphemy
is a word that means speaking badly about a religion, or insulting a god.

We know an unbeliever can blaspheme the Holy Spirit by rejecting the Spirit after He has revealed Himself in power.

Matthew 11:21 (NIV)
21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

A Christian who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is acting out in thought, word and deed that which clearly insults the Spirit of God by which we are suppose to be sanctified. A Christian can insult the Spirit and grieve the Spirit within them by continually and deliberately sinning against the Spirit who lives in you.

Another way a Christian may blaspheme the Holy Spirit is by not only by acting out our sinfulness, but teaching or coaxing others to do the same, or causing them to join in your sin by taking advantage of their weaknesses, thus Speaking against the salvation the Spirit offers to the world and causing others, and other Christians, to stumble and fall.

Matthew 18:6 (NIV)
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

1 John 5:16
(NIV)
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

Mark 3:28-30 (NIV)
28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

Luke 12:8-10 (NIV)
8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:30-32 (NIV)
30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

How does a Christian insult the Spirit of God?

Hebrews 10:26-30 (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has *trampled the Son of God underfoot, who *has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has *insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.

The Lord God judges "The Lord will judge his people" the blaspheming Christian with even greater punishment "more severely" than the unbeliever because the unbeliever never had the Spirit or had the wisdom and guidance the Spirit and Word gives.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (NIV)
13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.


In saying this, for those who know that you are living in any sin(s), or lifestyle, against what you know is right and holy by the Spirit of God and His Word, and if the Holy Spirit is still convicting you of that sin or sins, then you still have time to repent.

When the time comes that you become hardened by those sins so that you feel no remorse or willingness to repent, then you can know that the Spirit has judged you unworthy of salvation for insulting and grieving Him by your deliberate rejection of His guidance, grace, and counsel.

Despite these warnings in Scripture of clear judgement for those who blaspheme or insult the Spirit of God, my experienced belief tells me that as long as a person still lives their is the possibility of repentance. And if there are those whom no possibility exists - as God clearly did by hardening many of the Jews in Elect Israel for their obstinate resistance to His Spirit - I still do not feel we can judge who those people might be. I say that when we minister to others, treat everyone as if God still holds out salvation to them, for God is patient and forgiving, and will hear the prayers of the faithful.

Many of the Jews, and even Christians, have and will grieve and resist the Spirit and Word and its enlightening, convicting and drawing work, and be lost.

Acts 7 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalm 106:32 (WEB) Bolding mine…32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord, and trouble came to Moses because of them; 33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

Ephesians 4:30-31 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.

Hebrews 10:29 (WEB) Bolding mine… 29 How much severe punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

As the Scriptures say:


‘You must remain in Christ (the Vine) to be eternally saved.’
‘You must remain faithful to remain in the Holy Olive Tree to remain saved or you will be cut off’ (See: Romans 11).

Even when the believer has the Spirit living in them by faith, they still are responsible to live by that Spirit to receive Life....

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:8-9 (WEB)
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.
 
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Justin BT

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The Spirit of God isn't the prize people get for doing right, Hes the cause.

I am not sure the idea of the Spirit being a prize is biblical, God is not a prize to be won or lost, I am not sure anyone here is arguing for that are they? Aren't we talking about whether the alive/filling/gifting walk with the Spirit post the initial ongoing indwelling of the spirit which occurs at salvation?
 
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Hazelelponi

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I am not sure the idea of the Spirit being a prize is biblical, God is not a prize to be won or lost, I am not sure anyone here is arguing for that are they? Aren't we talking about whether the alive/filling/gifting walk with the Spirit post the initial ongoing indwelling of the spirit which occurs at salvation?

The Bible states the Holy Spirit the cause of our righteousness, He is causal to our obedience. That is His work in us..

When you say those filled with the Holy Spirit - who causes them to obey - then disobey, is to call the Spirit of God a failure in His mission - which is a blasphemy. It diminishes the work of Christ, and elevates man above Him.

The Holy Spirit is causal to obedience, or there is no obedience and thus rightly the Spirit of God does not dwell in the man, nor ever has.

It's not both, or your claim is that God fails.
 
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Guojing

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Of course, this is not my idea … it is what John 14 says!

John 14 (NLT):
15 If you love me, obey my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.
19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father,
and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.

And because they love me, my Father will love them.
And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.

23 All who love me will do what I say.
My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.

John 14 says: Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is conditional
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:15
If you love Jesus, Father God will give you the Holy Spirit … 14:15-16
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:21
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, He will love you and reveal Himself to you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, you will do what He says … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God and Jesus (and the HS?) will come inside … 14:23

John 14 says most believers today do NOT have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside
… simply because they are NOT obeying His commandments.
Does this remind you of the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.

You must be a fan of Psalms 51.
 
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HatGuy

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Of course, this is not my idea … it is what John 14 says!

John 14 (NLT):
15 If you love me, obey my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.
19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father,
and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.

And because they love me, my Father will love them.
And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.

23 All who love me will do what I say.
My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.

John 14 says: Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is conditional
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:15
If you love Jesus, Father God will give you the Holy Spirit … 14:15-16
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:21
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, He will love you and reveal Himself to you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, you will do what He says … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God and Jesus (and the HS?) will come inside … 14:23

John 14 says most believers today do NOT have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside
… simply because they are NOT obeying His commandments.
Does this remind you of the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.
We need the Holy Spirit to become holy.

Saying we need to be holy before we get the Holy Spirit is saying we have to be well before we can have our medicine.

This is unfortunately the wrong way around and will mean Christians will never be able to be holy because they'll believe they can't have who makes them holy until they make themselves holy.

Try again.
 
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LiquidCat

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Of course, this is not my idea … it is what John 14 says!

John 14 (NLT):
15 If you love me, obey my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.
19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father,
and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.

And because they love me, my Father will love them.
And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.

23 All who love me will do what I say.
My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.

John 14 says: Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is conditional
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:15
If you love Jesus, Father God will give you the Holy Spirit … 14:15-16
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:21
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, He will love you and reveal Himself to you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, you will do what He says … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God and Jesus (and the HS?) will come inside … 14:23

John 14 says most believers today do NOT have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside
… simply because they are NOT obeying His commandments.
Does this remind you of the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.

How do you come to this conclusion reading these verses they are opposite to what your title says like shooting themselves into foot.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.


So you get Advocate who never leave you but somehow he leaves you if you disobey ? They you call Jesus a lier?
If you didnt get Holy Spirit untill you showed obedience then it couldnt leave you because you did not have it in first place.
Moreover you get Holy Spirit before you even do anything to test your obedience doesn't make sense at all I somehow wonder how people come to such
conclusions 0 logic in this , my guess it people read some man written books and just come with such ideas.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Of course, this is not my idea … it is what John 14 says!

John 14 (NLT):
15 If you love me, obey my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.
19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father,
and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.

And because they love me, my Father will love them.
And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.

23 All who love me will do what I say.
My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.

John 14 says: Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is conditional
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:15
If you love Jesus, Father God will give you the Holy Spirit … 14:15-16
If you love Jesus, you will obey His commandments … 14:21
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, He will love you and reveal Himself to you … 14:21
If you love Jesus, you will do what He says … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God will love you … 14:23
If you love Jesus, Father God and Jesus (and the HS?) will come inside … 14:23

John 14 says most believers today do NOT have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside
… simply because they are NOT obeying His commandments.
Does this remind you of the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3.

There is something to be said regarding obedience.
Do your best
ask for forgiveness when falling short.
Repent my middle name.
M-Bob
 
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BCsenior

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As Peter said that those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins WILL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, (Acts 2:38), your POV is wrong. All BACs receive the gift.
It is by the Spirit that we are "quickened". (Rom 8:9-11)
I don't blame you for being wrong ... it's very difficult to prove the Truth about this!
Actually, it's almost as if one really needs to have this baptism to believe in it.
However, perhaps the Holy Spirit can get through to some people who are seekers.
He definitely cannot get through to those who are closed because they know it all.
 
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BCsenior

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Along with showing them the many Scriptures, I believe we should be patient, and pray for them, and show them the love of God, as well (Both in word, action, and deed).
Aaaah, yes, you mean the way Jesus treated the Pharasees!
And the way He said shake the dust off your feet and leave, if they won't listen/believe.
Yes, I get it ... thanks.
FYI, some "believers" choose to purposefully be disobedient.
And some are goats, and some are tares (weeds), and some are ...
I am not ignorant of Satan's devices.
 
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BCsenior

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The Bible states the Holy Spirit the cause of our righteousness,
He is causal to our obedience. That is His work in us..
So all of Paul's many exhortations to be obedient, tow the line, work out your salvation, etc.
were directed at the Holy Spirit ... Great ... Thanks!
 
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Hazelelponi

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So all of Paul's many exhortations to be obedient, tow the line, work out your salvation, etc.
were directed at the Holy Spirit ... Great ... Thanks!

Romans 8:28-30
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover those whom He predestined, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom he justified, them Be also glorified."

We can do no good nor righteous thing outside God's Holy Spirit. His work in us is key to our success. And with our word and action we Glorify His name, not ours.



"the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Revelation 4:10-11
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Jesus' disciples couldn't get much of anything because ...
they weren't new creations in Christ with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
There's NO comparison between them and Old Testament people ...and... BACs!
Exactly. And without the true understanding of who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is, they would never receive the Comforter. The commandment, also known as a decree, to believe in the relationship between the Father and Christ was essential in receiving the Holy Spirit.

To clarify more, Jesus tells us what His commandments are:

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Then Jesus Christ of Nazareth tells them who He is:

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

This is true belief, to Love the Jesus Christ of Nazareth who is One with the Father, God almighty.
 
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