Number One Flaw in Cessationism

BCsenior

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In other words, you prefer to think that there was no cessation,
and you attribute that stance to the working of the Holy Spirit. :sigh:
I don't prefer to think ... I know.
Cannot anyone know anything (w/o any doubt)?
And cannot anyone receive spiritual Truth from the Holy Spirit?
 
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BCsenior

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But here YOU admit that cessationism is inferred from the experience of seeing a disappearance of the gifts!
I know that cessationism is false from the experience of seeing the gifts in action!
WHY would Satan perform the gifts to confirm the truth of the Gospel?
That WAS the major reason for the gifts in the NT time period.
To help people believe in Jesus and His gospel.

Secondary was that people could be healed of physical, mental, emotional, spiritual problems.

Oh, but that's NOT necessary today! ... We have the word now!
(many many lols to the point of complete exhaustion)
 
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Albion

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But that's not a valid reason for the doctrine of cessationism.
The "valid reason" is that they ceased.

No denlal of the facts of history is needed in addition.

And that in turn means that no speculation about almost two thousand years of history being a mirage or that everyone's minds were fooled in some way needs to be invented.

But here YOU admit that cessationism is inferred from the experience of seeing a disappearance of the gifts!
As I said, a cessationist is a cessationist for the most basic of reasons--they ceased. WHY they did is something to explain, and if you want to offer some explanation for why it was that cessation occurred, that would be great and would help the discussion.
 
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JAL

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The "valid reason" is that they ceased.

No denlal of the facts of history is needed in addition.

And that in turn means that no speculation about almost two thousand years of history being a mirage or that everyone's minds were fooled in some way needs to be invented.


As I said, a cessationist is a cessationist for the most basic of reasons--they ceased.
Unacceptable. Doctrine based on empirical experience contradicts sola scriptura, methodologically speaking. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
WHY they did is something to explain, and if you want to offer some explanation for why it was that cessation occurred, that would be great and would help the discussion.
Multiple factors distancing man from God.
(1) A decline in zeal for seeking direct revelation/prophecy (1Cor 14:1). In the OT this was known as a failure to seek God's face.
(2) The unwarranted conclusion that Sola Scriptura was supposed to replace direct revelation and the gifts.
(3) This led to the rise of man-made religious traditions, sustained by an obstinacy determined to shove those precepts down God's throat.
(4) The continual intellectual dishonesty of pretending to know what we're doing - pretending that we know how to run a church for example.
(5) 1800 years of the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity defining God as an immaterial nothingness who is not to be seen and heard, contrary to John 5:37 for example. This stifles direct revelation/prophecy even more.
(6) Failure of the church to realize that revival and sanctification are the same thing. Thus the church tries to sanctify herself by obeying laws/rules obtained via the Sola Scriptura methodology - precisely the mistake of the Galatians. Paul insinuated impending failure if the Galatians were to continue in that vein. He also tied the Galatian error to four of the five points above #1, #2, #3, #4 (all accept #5).

Maybe that's a start?
 
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Albion

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Unacceptable. Doctrine based on empirical experience contradicts sola scriptura, methodologically speaking.
No, it doesn't. There are plenty of people who have misinterpreted what they read in Scripture, but that doesn't make Scripture wrong.
 
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JAL

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No, it doesn't. There are plenty of people who have misinterpreted what they read in Scripture, but that doesn't make Scripture wrong.
In fact this is the standard intellectual-dishonesty tactic that I recently called you out on in another thread. Whenever I question Sola Scriptura, you pretend as though I'm challenging the veracity of scripture. Your standard strawman with me.
 
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Albion

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In fact this is the standard intellectual-dishonesty tactic that I recently called you out on in another thread. Whenever I question Sola Scriptura, you pretend as though I'm challenging the veracity of scripture. Your standard strawman with me.
No, that's not what I've done. I can only conclude that you have misunderstood the explanations you were given (including my comment in post 605), but as we on CF have seen many times, there are A LOT of people who don't get what the very straightforward concept we call Sola Scriptura actually means. If you want to pose some questions, I will try again.
 
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JAL

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No, that's not what I've done. I can only conclude that you have misunderstood the explanations you were given (including my comment in post 605), but as we on CF have seen many times, there are A LOT of people who don't get what the very straightforward concept we call Sola Scriptura actually means. If you want to pose some questions, I will try again.
I don't have any questions. You obviously have no resolution for the methodological contradiction. Cessationists can't claim "the Bible only" and then look to their own experience to define normative experience. Imagine a Bible scholar visiting an ancient city and, having seen no display of miracles, intuits cessationism. Turns out it was the hometown of Jesus. And there was a circumstantial reason for the lack of miracles:

"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith."

Thus the cessationist argument based on history is a garbage-argument that is not only bogus and baseless but also seems to fly in the face of multiple such verses.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The gifts once served to help justify the New Testament and also the use of the Old testament was in place for the same purpose. It is the foundation. The word and the Spirit.

There was a way of attesting true prophet from false. On one occasion fire came from Heaven and devoured a sacrifice.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Cessation, the word comes from 1 Corinthians 13, that, tongues will cease... but Paul most commonly wrote with his eschatological framework. About Christ second coming...

The plain meaning on that chapter is that tongues will cease when Christ returns. The word striving is around the word for, perfect, teleios. The plain meaning of the chapter gets yanked around to say it does not refer to Christ return, because Christ is not a thing, but what comes upon people when He returns is a thing, like lightning, a grand revelation. So ends the word striving of teleios and hopefully cessation.
 
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BCsenior

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On the back page of my tract entitled, "Understanding the two Holy Spirit Baptisms" ...

The disastrous doctrine of “cessationism”

At some point, the church began to teach that the spiritual gifts had ceased, using 1 Corinthians 13:8-10
as an excuse … saying the “perfect” had already come, referring to the Canon of Scripture!
Isn’t it obvious that those in power who did NOT have the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(and some of the 9 spiritual gifts) were jealous of those who did …
and so invented this “jealousy” cessationism!

Almost all denominations have finally seen the light … that the “perfect” refers to Jesus.
When He does come back, true and faithful born-again believers will be going to heaven
… so their spiritual “power” gifts (1 Corinthians 12) will no longer be needed.

And it also should be obvious that Satan was behind this travesty.
Indeed, cessationism has been one of his greatest triumphs,
which has caused God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel
with miracles, etc. to be mostly abandoned for many centuries!
Due to the church’s resulting unbelief, countless people have been robbed of
this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, causing many to not believe.
Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of physical,
mental, emotional, and spiritual problems!

In the last days, there will be people who will have a form of godliness,
but will deny its power (Greek: dunamis) ● 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
 
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BCsenior

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Still on the Day of Pentecost, Peter explained what had happened earlier ...

“And the Father, as He had promised, gave Him (Jesus) the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us,
just as you see and hear today. … Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God,
and be (water) baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you, and to your children,
and even to the Gentiles -- all who have been called by the Lord our God.
” (Acts 2:33-39)


"The gift" and "the promise" were none other than the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Water baptism was not necessary before receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit (see Acts 10:44-48).
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is available TODAY to believers who actually believe.
 
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JAL

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Cessation, the word comes from 1 Corinthians 13, that, tongues will cease... but Paul most commonly wrote with his eschatological framework. About Christ second coming...

The plain meaning on that chapter is that tongues will cease when Christ returns. The word striving is around the word for, perfect, teleios. The plain meaning of the chapter gets yanked around to say it does not refer to Christ return, because Christ is not a thing, but what comes upon people when He returns is a thing, like lightning, a grand revelation. So ends the word striving of teleios and hopefully cessation.
Eschatological? No. You're right to hold to continuationism, but your defense of it is stronger if you realize 1Cor 13 is not eschatological. There is no ceasing of tongues mentioned in that chapter, neither in this life nor the next. Paul isn't addressing the issue of whether tongues will cease. Rather he is defining spiritual maturity as a maturation of three gifts (tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) - as even several noted cessationists scholars have admitted (believe it or not). See here for an explanation.
 
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JAL

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Generally all of Paul the apostle's works come with an eschatological framework.
That's too generalized and too vague. I demonstrated from the immediate context that Paul was talking about the maturing of the gifts. How can the maturation of a gift, in the present life, equate to an eschatological eradication of it? Doesn't make sense. The one excludes the other.

Also if Paul were talking about the eschatological eradication of three gifts (tongues, knowledge, and prophecy), you face additional problems:
(1) How does it even make sense to say that knowledge will be eradicated?
(2) How does it even make sense to say that prophecy (Spirit-inspired revelations and speech) will be eradicated?
(3) If prophecy is "the imperfect" (by your reading), this means even "The Prophet" himself (Christ) was imperfect?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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It is not eradication, it is that when Christ returns, prophecy will be put off like a telephone, because the person on the other end has arrived. Instead of the paper letter or message, like an sms, the voice will be heard directly. We will not have candles at midday. These things, voice and sunlight are analogies.

Knowledge will be more complete when Christ returns, than many gifts of knowledge can be.
 
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JAL

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You can call it 'eradication' (my term) or 'cessation' (your term) - terminology isn't the issue here.
It is not eradication, it is that when Christ returns, prophecy will be put off like a
telephone, because the person on the other end has arrived.
Um...that would spell the eradication/cessation of the telephone. Just like I said. Look, are you going to talk to your brothers in heaven? If so, will the Spirit ever help to guide what you say? That's prophecy.
Instead of the paper letter or message, like an sms, the voice will be heard directly.
You're not making any sense. The prophets already DID hear God's voice directly.

Knowledge will be more complete when Christ returns, than many gifts of knowledge can be.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If this passage is foretelling an eschatological cessation, then knowledge should cease.

Since your reading doesn't make sense, you are forced to produce vague analogies that aren't clear and don't really fit.

My reading provides a more seamless fit for Paul's words. But since you've already decided to stick with an implausible reading, there's nothing I can do about it.
 
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JAL

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Knowledge will be more complete when Christ returns, than many gifts of knowledge can be.
Paul's analogy is a babe maturing into a man. The opposite of a babe (immaturity) is manhood (maturity). Thus until then we know "in part". This is quantitative. The babe doesn't CEASE from knowing, rather his manhood amounts to knowing (quantitatively) more than before. This is seamless.

In your reading, the opposite of a babe (imperfection) is supposedly manhood (perfection) - ???? That doesn't make sense. In real life, nobody defines the transition from infancy to manhood as a change from imperfection to absolute perfection.
 
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