Why YEC can seem plausible

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

dlamberth said:
What I've never understood but find interesting is how ancient middle-eastern desert creation myths Have been carried forward into the modern age as a given place of reality. It makes no sense to me, yet here we are.

It was either myths that seemed scientific by chance, or it is true (and only modern science could verify this) or is it kind of plausible for modern Christians and the text was used to test them (within a simulation)...
There's also the idea of a flat earth:
A flat earth and an earth-centered universe
Some Christians believe that literally while others think it was just a metaphor, etc.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

BigV said:
Why would a local flood require an Ark? Just move to a place that is not going to get flooded. Seems like a waste of resources to build an Ark (how long did that take, btw? years?)

How Long Did It Take for Noah to Build the Ark?
"....55 to 75 years for a reasonable maximum time to build the Ark..."

and float 40 days, floating around a small puddle.

The rain lasted for 40 days, they stayed in the ark for about a year:
How Long Did the Flood Last?

However, to your point, it's hard to have a global flood on a Flat Earth.

I don't see any problem with that and neither do flat-earthers.

MrsFoundit · Jan 17, 2020

muichimotsu said:
a reputable hypothesis

A "reputable hypothesis" is just an idea that is more scientifically pure than ID or any religious concept. This thread is a proposal that we are living in a simulation designed to make unguided evolution "look plausible", it is not based on a scientific consensus from the start.

MrsFoundit · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
I don't see any problem with that and neither do flat-earthers.

Come to think of it a flat land floods more easily. Ask Holland.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

Here is a lengthy article from "Answers in Genesis"
Is the Earth Flat?
It is against the idea of a flat earth though it only seems to give scientific reasons and not Biblical reasons.

coffee4u · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
Here is a lengthy article from "Answers in Genesis"
Is the Earth Flat?
It is against the idea of a flat earth though it only seems to give scientific reasons and not Biblical reasons.

This is because flat earth has nothing to do with Biblical doctrine. People may choose to use the Bible to prove their belief in a flat earth, but the Bible does not teach a flat earth nor is there any doctrine tied to it. Doctrine is the whole point of the argument. If someone's stance undermines Biblical doctrine then it becomes a biblical issue. Answers in Genesis gave scientific reasons because flat earth is not a Biblical issue.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

coffee4u said:
This is because flat earth has nothing to do with Biblical doctrine. ..... Answers in Genesis gave scientific reasons because flat earth is not a Biblical issue.

No the reason is a lack of scriptures that reject a flat earth. See:
A flat earth and an earth-centered universe

coffee4u · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
No the reason is a lack of scriptures that reject a flat earth. See:
A flat earth and an earth-centered universe

Yes, the same way cars and computers have no scriptures. Flat earth has nothing to do with the Bible. On first glance it may seem like it does but there is no doctrine tied to flat earth belief.

gaara4158 · Jan 17, 2020

Given the veritable mountains of definitive evidence for deep time and evolution that we have today, YEC is necessarily a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theorists are very resourceful when it comes to protecting their beliefs. Pair that with the fact that humans frame the past in narratives and tend to seek agents for everything they observe, and it’s inevitable that creation myths should crop up.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

coffee4u said:
Yes, the same way cars and computers have no scriptures. Flat earth has nothing to do with the Bible. On first glance it may seem like it does but there is no doctrine tied to flat earth belief.

Please check out the link. It says there are 200 verses!
A flat earth and an earth-centered universe
The point is that this is a part of believing the Bible is 100% True.

coffee4u · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
Please check out the link. It says there are 200 verses!
A flat earth and an earth-centered universe
The point is that this is a part of believing the Bible is 100% True.

I will look, but I can tell you without looking that those verses have nothing to do with a flat earth. They chose to make them about a flat earth.

Now let's say I was against cars. There are genuine reasons to be against cars because of pollution, but let's say I am part of an 'Anti-car group' because the Bible has verses about riding donkeys. I could come up with a list of verses about riding donkeys and claim this means the Bible is anti-car. It's not, it's just a group using the Bible to claim something.

I will come back later after doing some stuff and check the verses but I am pretty sure I have seen them all before.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

gaara4158 said:
Given the veritable mountains of definitive evidence for deep time and evolution that we have today, YEC is necessarily a conspiracy theory. ...

Flat earth is a conspiracy theory (involving NASA etc). I'm not sure whether YECs are claiming that evolutionists are aware that the universe is 6000 years old and it is a big coverup.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

coffee4u said:
I will look, but I can tell you without looking that those verses have nothing to do with a flat earth. They chose to make them about a flat earth.

It says there are over 200 verses. Surely at least a few of them are relevant. And flat earthers claim they support a flat earth and this belief is what I'm talking about.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

BTW when I was in a mental ward at the start of last year I believed that if we are in a simulation it is possible that the flat earth or Mormonism was true. I now believe that the supernatural and big conspiracies are theoretically possible but delusions and hallucinations are far more likely.

gaara4158 · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
Flat earth is a conspiracy theory (involving NASA etc). I'm not sure whether YECs are claiming that evolutionists are aware that the universe is 6000 years old and it is a big coverup.

They would have to be, given that the interdisciplinary expert consensus is that evolution is true.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

gaara4158 said:
They would have to be, given that the interdisciplinary expert consensus is that evolution is true.

If the universe is 6000 years old then large scale evolution is a theory that can't be historically true. YECs say evolutionists can be simply people with the assumption that God wasn't involved and the Bible isn't 100% true.
Also like I've said YECs have a counter-argument for just about every basic evolutionist argument. They also have Biblical arguments like those in the original post.

gaara4158 · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
If the universe is 6000 years old then large scale evolution is a theory that can't be historically true. YECs say evolutionists are simply people with the assumption that God wasn't involved.

It’s the same as having the assumption God wasn’t involved in my recollection of the past week. I have my memories, but if someone’s convinced God edited everyone’s memories they’d look at me the same way YECs look at scientists.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

gaara4158 said:
It’s the same as having the assumption God wasn’t involved in my recollection of the past week.....

That belief is quite compatible with the Bible. Btw I added to my last post.

coffee4u · Jan 17, 2020

JohnClay said:
It says there are over 200 verses. Surely at least a few of them are relevant. And flat earthers claim they support a flat earth and this belief is what I'm talking about.

I doubt it.

Earth Created Before the Sun: Genesis 1:1-19 How is this related to flat earth?
Universe is Complete, NOT ever expanding: Genesis 2:1 Just because God finished creating everything doesn't mean it can't move and expand and again how is this related to the shape of the earth?
Earth Measurements Unknown: Job 38:4-5, Job 38:18, Jeremiah 31:37, Proverbs 25:3
Why do they need to be known?
Earth is a Disk/Circle, not a ball: Isaiah 40:22, Proverbs 8:27, Job 38:13-14
A ball seen at a distance looks like a circle. Other people have argued that the verse in Job is better translated to mean sphere rather than circle.
Earth Measured with a Line, not a curve: Job 38:4-5
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
We measure with a line. The original line was a man's arm and a mans foot. Be pretty difficult to measure with a curved ruler since the curve of the earth is immense. A curved measure might make sense to a giant whose arms could literally spread far enough to place a curved measure or on earth tiny enough so a man could.
Extremely Large Area of Land is FLAT, no curvature: Ezekiel 45:1
The Holy District
45 “When you allot the land as an inheritance, you shall set apart for the Lord a portion of the land as a holy district, 25,000 cubits long and 20,000 cubits broad. It shall be holy throughout its whole extent.
They measured some land, there is nothing about its flatness, curvature or its valleys or hills mentioned. Doesn't need to be. There is nothing about flat earth in that verse.
Paths are Straight, not curved: 1 Samuel 6:12, Psalm 5:8, Psalm 27:11, Isaiah 40:3, Jeremiah 31:9, Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, John 1:23, Acts 16:11, Acts 21:1, Hebrews 12:13
Again are we living on a tiny world? The word straight means dealing with things in a straight and honest way vs crooked meaning dishonest.
Most real-life paths curve quite a bit from side to side as they meander around things. That, of course, has nothing to do with how round or flat the earth is.
let's grab the first verse and look at it.
1 Samuel 6:12 English Standard Version (ESV)
12 And the cows went straight in the direction of Beth-shemesh along one highway, lowing as they went. They turned neither to the right nor to the left, and the lords of the Philistines went after them as far as the border of Beth-shemesh.
Exactly as I thought above, the cows went straight home not deviating to the left or the right. Nothing about the earths curve.
Waters are Straight, not curved: Job 37:10
10 By the breath of God ice is given,
and the broad waters are frozen fast.
Again nothing in there about the earths curve. Also once again it seems like they think they should be able to look out their window at the earths curve, the earth is way too large to do that and we are far to close to the surface.
Earthquakes shake Earth, and does not move: 2 Samuel 22:8, Isaiah 13:13, Revelation 6:12-13
This comes from David's Song of Deliverance.
“Then the earth reeled and rocked;
the foundations of the heavens trembled
and quaked, because he was angry.
9 Smoke went up from his nostrils,
and devouring fire from his mouth;
glowing coals flamed forth from him.
10 He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
11 He rode on a cherub and flew;
he was seen on the wings of the wind.
Obvious poetry is obvious.

Here is another poem. What do you think this is about?
Isaiah 55:12
You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
I picture trees with leaves blowing back and forth in the wind and the hills covered with flowers. Do the trees really have hands clapping? Do the hills really burst forth in song? No, but it makes you picture the leaves moving does it not? If you get a different picture from this I would be interested to know.
You can't build Biblical doctrine on poetry although it can be used to reinforce other verses. Do you see anything in David's Song of Deliverance that says the earth is flat, because I sure don't. Why couldn't a round world rock? of course, it's not even meaning that, but how the world feels in the middle of an earthquake-not that I have ever experienced one but I have seen enough new reports to say the earth would definitely be moving under foot.

Earth is fixed and immovable: 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 33:9, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, Psalm 119:89-90, Isaiah 14:7, Isaiah 45:18, Zechariah 1:11, Hebrews 11:10, 2 Peter 3:5
One verse as before.
1 Chronicles 16:30
This time it's David's Song of Thanks
30 tremble before him, all the earth;
yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.
This is talking about the people of the earth trembling before God and how the earth is firmly established, it will not simply move away from its place nor will Gods kingdom be overthrown. Because we all know the earth moves. Even flat earthers know it moves during an earthquake or the seas and rivers move. The earth doesn't go wandering off into space on a little trip though, its movement is still fixed. But again the verse above is poetry, it isn't meant to be used to establish non-moving earth. You will see if you go through these verses that they grab ahold of poetry a lot. They have to to try and make a case.

I think that is enough for one post. see if you can find some verses out of that that are not poetry as I have better things to be doing.

JohnClay · Jan 17, 2020

coffee4u said:
I doubt it.

....I think that is enough for one post. see if you can find some verses out of that that are not poetry as I have better things to be doing.

My point is that according to flat earthers, the Bible seems to support their view - in every case (AiG found no Bible verses that supported their view).
Yes it could be poetry but it is possible to say things like "around the globe" or "down under", etc, that imply a globe.
Do you think it is just a coincidence that according to flat-earthers there are 200+ verses while a lack of verses talking about the literal state of things? I think it was deliberate - as a test to see how dogmatic and faithful the believers are rather than looking to balanced reasoning.

Why YEC can seem plausible

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