Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

Status
Not open for further replies.

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years.

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40 year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe a time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1085), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an everlasting generation.
According to Strong's - I don't see the use of #1085 in that passage, but 1074. This is the definition Strong's attributes to Matthew 24:34:

Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to Strong's - I don't see the use of #1085 in that passage, but 1074. This is the definition Strong's attributes to Matthew 24:34:

Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation(genea).

What about a passage like this then? How can you apply generation here like you are applying it in Matthew 24:34?

And here is another example. Same question I asked above applies here as well.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation(genea), among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

BTW, in light of a passage, such as Philippians 2:15, I can see Matthew 24:34 maybe meaning something like the following---Verily I say unto you, This crooked and perverse generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. IMO that seems to fit like a glove. IOW generation is meaning this present age. And it makes perfect sense, because the next age is going to be the new heavens and new earth age once this present age passes away.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
First of all, I am a Postrib Amillennialist. I am also an Idealist – meaning I believe Revelation consist of 7 recaps culminating in a climactic return of Christ.

Like Partial Preterists and Historicists, and other Idealists, I believe Daniel 9 has been fulfilled in and through the earthly Messianic ministry of Christ. Idealists also hold that a lot (but not all) of Matthew 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 was fulfilled in AD70. For example, I believe the great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 relates to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Saying all that, having debated with Partial Preterists over the years, and most recently on this site, I have many real deep biblical concerns about Partial Preterist teaching which I believe are dangerous, and which lead many into the heresy of Full Preterism. Much of what is advocated on this board by Partial Preterists is only a thin paper wall away from Full Preterism. Partial Preterists even freely quote their writers.

An unhealthy fixation with 70AD

There seems to be very little in Scripture that is literal or real in Partial Preterist thinking. Words that are clear in their meaning and context, and which every unindoctrinated objective Bible student would quickly understand are spiritualized away to carry no literal or physical meaning. Passages that are expressly referring to the glorious climactic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ are lightly treated and swiftly dismissed and conveniently reapplied to the coming of Titus and relocated to 70 AD. No text seems safe from their extreme form of spiritualization of Scripture.

In Partial Preterist theology the First Advent and the Second Advent take back stage to their obsession with the coming of Titus and 70 AD. It is all about Titus! It is all about 70 AD! It is all they want to talk about. In their mind, it is the focal event in history. It is the pivotal moment of the divine plan. Of course, this alone should be grounds to question the theory. But there are many other reasons.

Where Partial Preterists miss the mark is that they are captivated with the wrong event. They are fixated with the coming of Titus and 70 AD. In that, they stand alone in their fixation. The Old Testament is not so. The New Testament is not so. Genesis to Revelation is focused on Jesus Christ, His new covenant, His messianic rule, His climatic return and the introduction of His perfect eternal kingdom. The sacred pages point to our Savior and Lord. The Holy Spirit points to Jesus Christ. The Father’s blessing is upon Jesus Christ.

My biggest red flag is Partial Preterist's obsession with the coming of Titus and 70 AD. This fixation is alarming, unhealthy and plainly unscriptural. To them, it is the focal point of history. Little do they realize, in their preoccupation with this by-gone year, that they are overlooking and undermining the two focal events in Scripture and history – the First Advent and the Second Advent.

When you look in the Old and New Testament, the central emphasis of both is the earthly ministry of Christ and His glorious and majestic second coming. Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection were long-anticipated by Moses and the Old Testament prophets. It is also the focus of the New Testament. The glorious final majestic return of Jesus Christ is the final anticipated event in history that every believer has longer for since the fall of man. It is then that corruption will finally be banished and everlasting perfection will be introduced forever.

In the Old Testament, the saints of old yearned for the coming Messiah who would deliver His people and redeem them from their sin. His Messianic ministry ushered in “the last days” period.

Just like Premils are fixated with their supposed future 1000 years after the coming of Christ, and dump multiple unrelated Scriptures into Revelation 20, Preterists are similarly obsessed with AD 70, and dump every and any text they find into the Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple and the city of Jerusalem in AD 70, as if it was the pivotal moment in time and eternity. No Scripture is safe. It is as if the Holy Spirit in the New Testament has nothing else to speak about but this passing fleeting event that was perpetrated by the Roman soldiers.

· Passages that clearly pertain to the cross (and the introduction of the new covenant) are stolen, reinterpreted and reapplied to AD 70.
· Passages that clearly pertain to the intra-Advent period are stolen, reinterpreted and reapplied to AD 70.
· Passages that clearly pertain to the glorious climactic coming of Christ are stolen, reinterpreted and reapplied to AD 70.
· Passages that clearly pertain to eternity are stolen, reinterpreted and reapplied to AD 70.

What they apply to AD 70 is totally unbiblical and insane. They are indeed fixated with that date, whereas Scripture is fixated with the cross and the Lord's final return.
  • They have the old covenant ending at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have the new covenant commencing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “this age” ending at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have the age to come” starting at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “the last days” finishing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “the last day” of “the last days” occurring at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “the day of redemption” happening at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “the coming of the Lord” arriving at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “the resurrection” of the just and the unjust happening at the coming of Titus in AD70.
  • They have “the judgment” of the just and the unjust happening at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have the old corrupt heavens and earth being replaced at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • They have “the new heavens and new earth” appearing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
This is absolutely ridiculous! Such is their obsession with this much vaunted year (AD 70), that their advocates and websites can do nothing else but speak on its virtues.

Partial Preterists neutralize every possible future coming of the Lord passage in order to sustain their position. No text is safe. The only event they seem to see in the New Testament is AD 70. When you engage with them you quickly find that they are totally fixated with this innocuous date. There is such a delusion and duplicity here.

Their teachers

When challenged, Partial Preterists habitually hide behind the statements of their teachers, and are quick to advancing weblinks to their Preterist mentors. This tactic is normally found among the cults. This shows a distinct weakness in their position and an unhealthy reliance upon man. Like Pretribbers, it is a doctrine that must be taught to be fully gasped. This also shows how absurd many of their claims are, and how uncertain they even are with their own doctrine. A normal unbiased straightforward reading of Scripture reveals many clear second coming passages that show a literal climatic return of Jesus Christ at the end of the world. Partial Preterist teaching does not abide the scrutiny of Scripture.

Partial Preterism does not hold up to normal sensible hermeneutical scrutiny. They shamelessly force mystical meanings on literal texts to support their forced doctrine, rather than letting the Scriptures speak for themselves. They seem to have no regards for either the detail of the texts or the context of the setting. They refuse to acknowledge the countless repeated Scriptures that depict a literal physical future climactic coming of Christ in all His final majesty and glory.

The truth!

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

· All creation is judged at the one final future coming of Christ.
· It is a perfect glorified age, which allows only perfect glorified inhabitants.
· Another proof that there will be no thousand years after the second coming is that time terminates with Christ’s coming. The age to come is eternal.
· It is an age that belongs exclusively to the glorified saints (the meek).
· Many Scriptures speak of the inter-Advent period as “the last days” (plural) and describe the second coming as “the last day” (singular). It is described as “the end.”

The detail that accompanies the second coming depictions give no opportunity for survivors. All the wicked are destroyed. The detail is climactic. The second coming is final and all-consummating. This current earth is completely regenerated.

Nobody seems to have any difficulty understanding the phrase “the beginning.” Every Christian knows that it is talking about the beginning of creation. It should be the same with “the last day” and “the end” – that is unless someone has a theological agenda to push, which requires that they dismiss or redefine the meaning of these simple unambiguous straight-forward conclusive statements in order to sustain their preconceived doctrine. In fact, I struggle to see how any Christian would have a difficulty with the whole concept of “the end.” It is talking about the end of this current corrupt arrangement and the beginning of the new perfect eternal state.

In order to get their theology to fit, Partial Preterists butcher the meaning and significance of these popular words in the New Testament. They explain them away to mean something they do not, in order to justify their prejudiced theology.

Partial Preterists take common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, they do not believe that “last” means last. The English word “last” is taken from the Greek word eschatos and is widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what it says. The word eschatos means end, last, farthest and final.

All sensible and objective Amillennialists should recognize that “the last days” were introduced by the Lord Jesus Christ, and relate to this current Messianic period, which will end at “the last day” of “the last days” when the Lord comes again. Many Scriptures speak of the inter-Advent period as “the last days” (plural) and describe the second coming as “the last day” (singular). It is also described as “the end of the age” or simply “the end” – when Jesus returns to introduce eternity.

Partial Preterists do not believe “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

When it comes to time, Scripture shows us that it has a definite beginning and a definite end. Before and after time we are looking at eternity. The beginning of time occurred when God created a means of measuring time – namely night and day. This revolves around His creation of the sun and the moon to provide distinct and calculable days, weeks, months and years. This takes us right back to creation. Time will end when Jesus comes in all His final majesty and glory. Time takes us from the commencement of “this age” to “the end of this age.” The term “this age” therefore applies to the whole period that covers time. Time finishes when Christ usher in eternity at His return.

This is seen by comparing the vivid and repeated biblical detail pertaining to “this age” and “the age to come.” This age is depicted as evil, carnal, corrupt and temporal, whereas, the age to come is depicted as perfect, renewed, glorified and eternal. This age involves mortal believers and unbelievers. The age to come belongs exclusively to the glorified elect. One must be worthy to inherit it (namely being redeemed). One must be fittingly prepared to enter it (namely through glorification). Sin, sinners, death and decay, rebellion and war, attend the whole duration of “this age,” whereas, the age to come is described as a perfected unending arrangement where perfected believers possess a perfected earth. All the ugly result of the fall is finally removed. Satan has been stripped of his power and banished to the lake of fire. Sin and sickness, corruption and the curse are now destroyed, never to race anymore.

Conclusion

Partial Preterism in my opinion is largely unbiblical. It gives Amillennialism a bad name. But what ultimately exposes it is the inspired Word of God. It seems like modern-day Partial Preterism is an extreme overreaction to the error of Pretrib. Its advocates should take a major step back and ascertain what the real focus of Scripture is, not what their teachers have taught them.

If you are an Amil, you are a partial preterist. If you believe any part, but not necessarily all, of the olivet discourse was fulfilled in the 1st century, you are a partial preterist.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

This teaching has absolutely nothing to do with AD70, the coming of Titus, the old covenant, the destruction of Jerusalem and the ancient Jews. The teaching is spiritual instruction that is directed towards the largely Gentile church at Ephesus who were living under the new covenant. It also relates to us today also.

This relates exclusively to the security a believer enjoys being "in Christ" until Jesus comes. That day is the climatic coming of Jesus Christ.
What the New Testament believers were anticipating was the fulfillment of the prophecies foretold in the Old Testament. "The Coming of the Son of Man" was a part of that......the vindication of His servants.....the end of an age....the days of vengeance.....it all goes together. Ephesians (along with the rest of the NT) relates to the in-between time.....where Christ Jesus had died....resurrected...and ascended to heaven.....but now what? They were promised He would "bring His kingdom" but it wasn't looking too much like He had (and some today STILL don't believe He's accomplished that and judge that based on how things "look")....they were promised He would "vindicate His servants".....and they were waiting for that to happen, because it ALL had to happen in order for Jesus to be THE promised Messiah.

Luke 21:19-22 ~ By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls.
But
when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,084.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let's see if I'm understanding you somewhat correctly. So feel free to correct any misunderstandings of your position on my part. I'm just trying to get on the same page with you is all.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Take verse 13, for instance. Is your position, though this does not depict a satan that is locked away in a pit, but is depicting a satan that is freely roaming about, he is fulfilling this verse while bound a thousand years in the bottomless pit?

As to verse 12, the text indicates this---for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The binding relates to the deceiving of the Gentile nations or ethnos. Before the Cross they were deceived, since the Cross the nations have received the Gospel. No nation before the Cross enjoyed the free spread of the Gospel. This could only happen after the Cross. Prior to Calvary, the Gospel was exclusively restricted to the small physical nation of Israel with the occasional conversion of a Gentile like Ruth or Rahab within the boundaries of Israel. Outside the boundaries of Israel, there is the one isolated exception of the city of Ninevah. Before the Cross, the Gentiles as a whole were deceived, apart from the occasional rare conversion; after the cross, whilst Satan continues to deceive the wicked on an individual basis, he can't deceive or blindfold the Gentiles as a whole, like before Calvary.

Is your position, that while he is still bound in the pit, he is having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time? And as to this short time. The fact Amils see the thousand years meaning at least 2000 years thusfar, does that mean you think this short time mentioned is meaning at least 2000 years of human history and counting?

What I'm getting at over all, since the Amil take on the thousand years is that it is at least 2000 years and counting, this 2000 years can't start before satan is cast out into the earth, but must start once he has been cast out into the earth. The text in Revelation 12 indicates this---And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

That seems to be the first thing he sets out to do once he sees that he has been cast out into the earth.

When was Satan cast out?

The answer is in the text. It is very simple and unambiguous: when He ascended up to heaven! When the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron … was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan. It also demonstrates the heavenly impact that Christ’s glorious victory over Satan secured. Both Revelation 20 and Revelation 12 chart the casting down of Satan from heaven in order to facilitate the global spread of the Gospel to the previously blinded nations.

The term “cast out” is taken from the Greek word ballo meaning to eject, drive out or send away. This word gives us some idea of the deep lasting work that was wrought upon Satan as a result of the cross. This reading seems to strongly support the idea that the accusing place that Satan once held in heaven before Calvary has now been totally destroyed and his area of influence on earth significantly limited.

Being banished from heaven he now operates on earth in a restricted manner with a lot less influence than he previously had. Satan was effectively unseated from his former global deception over the Gentiles, allowing the Gospel to spread forth.
 
Upvote 0

Messenger 3k

Active Member
Aug 4, 2018
322
53
New Jersey
✟38,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
According to the Word of God. Satan was defeated 2000 years ago. Christ rules and reigns today over His enemies in His Messianic reign.

Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that God hath raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And 'hath put' (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

By now, your problem is evident.

You've taken a scripture that says, Christ has all authority to mean Christ is wielding the authority.

There are other authorities existing on earth especially magnifying themselves above His authority.

This is why He then wields His authority and subjects every other authority to its place.

Paul shows that Christ’s return spells the termination of death and rebellion in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotageé) subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the Second Coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).


I'll assume you aren't deliberately getting scriptures misconstrued.

Paul wrote those passages after the resurrection, within which you claim Jesus was already reigning. Yet you fail to see the future tenses.

Here's one:

Revelation 20:6,
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign (not already reigning) with him for a thousand years. (NIV)

Lets be a bit analytical shall we?

You say there's no millenial reign. So Christ's reign technically ends at His second coming, right?

Scripture says in 1 Corinthians 15:25-26,

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (NIV)

Now where in scripture was death destroyed?

In Revelation 20:13-14,

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire...(KJV)

So death is destroyed at the time the dead are jugded.

Which dead are these? The same ones who come to life a thousand years later.

Revelation 20:4 & 5

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)...(NIV)

For your sake, lets assume the resurrection in the scripture above was Christ's resurrection.

According to you, Death is destroyed almost two thousand years after the resurrection.

But according to that scripture, Death is destroyed a thousand years after the resurrection.

Please reconcile that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidPT
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,084.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What the New Testament believers were anticipating was the fulfillment of the prophecies foretold in the Old Testament. "The Coming of the Son of Man" was a part of that......the vindication of His servants.....the end of an age....the days of vengeance.....it all goes together. Ephesians (along with the rest of the NT) relates to the in-between time.....where Christ Jesus had died....resurrected...and ascended to heaven.....but now what? They were promised He would "bring His kingdom" but it wasn't looking too much like He had (and some today STILL don't believe He's accomplished that and judge that based on how things "look")....they were promised He would "vindicate His servants".....and they were waiting for that to happen, because it ALL had to happen in order for Jesus to be THE promised Messiah.

Luke 21:19-22 ~ By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls.
But
when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Even though you are fixated with the coming of Titus and the arrival of AD70, the redeemed in both the OT and NT were captivated with Christ. Before the cross, Israel yearned for their coming Messiah. He was the centerpoint of their lives. The New Testament saints were captivated by Christ's earthly ministry and also His final future climatic coming, when He would eliminate sin, sinners, death, corruption, war and Satan forever.

Unlike you, the church at Ephesus was focused on the Lord Jesus Christ - their Redeemer. Titus didn't redeem anyone! He was a tool in God's hand to bring judgment to the Jewish state, the temple and the city of Jerusalem. All Titus brought was destruction.

What you are arguing undermines the cross-work. It negates redemption. It denies the redemption of our bodies when Jesus returns - the last aspect of redemption.

1 Corinthians 1:30 tells us: "Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

He redeemed us through the cross-work; He will redeem our bodies when He comes at the end of the age at His glorious climactic coming.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

This teaching has absolutely nothing to do with AD70, the coming of Titus, the old covenant, the destruction of Jerusalem and the ancient Jews. The teaching is spiritual instruction that is directed towards the largely Gentile church at Ephesus who were living under the new covenant. It also relates to us today also.

Are you saying that the sealing of God's elect only lasted as long as AD70? The reality is, they are “sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13) “unto the day of redemption” (Ephesians 4:30) - Christ's return. This is God’s eternal stamp of ownership. It is “only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” that escape torment.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,084.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you are an Amil, you are a partial preterist. If you believe any part, but not necessarily all, of the olivet discourse was fulfilled in the 1st century, you are a partial preterist.

I don't own that name (or will) because of the confusion and error that comes with Preterism and also the heresy attached to many Preterist beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation(genea).

What about a passage like this then? How can you apply generation here like you are applying it in Matthew 24:34?
It was that specific generation (group of people living at that time of Jesus) that God's wrath/salvation was going to fall on - just as the Old Testament prophets had foretold (and Jesus had pronounced).

Deuteronomy 32:5, 35-36 ~ "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation.
Vengeance is Mine; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; for their day of disaster is near, and their doom is coming quickly.” For the LORD will vindicate His people and will have compassion on His servants when He sees that their strength is gone and no one remains, slave or free.

Isaiah 35:4 ~ Say to those with anxious hearts: “Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance. With divine retribution He will come to save you.”

Malachi 3:1 ~ “Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Matthew 23:31-36 ~
“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 ~ For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews who having killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and having driven us out, and not pleasing God, are also set against all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, so as always to fill up their sins. Now the wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,084.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
By now, your problem is evident.

You've taken a scripture that says, Christ has all authority to mean Christ is wielding the authority.

There are other authorities existing on earth especially magnifying themselves above His authority.

This is why He then wields His authority and subjects every other authority to its place.

This is playing with words! He has all authority and is currently reigning now on majesty on high over all His enemies. So He is wielding authority also!

Christ is reigning over His enemies as Christ (Messiah) and Lord (God) since the resurrection. He has soundly defeated every enemy of righteousness and truth. He is no enforcing that victory through His rule over all creation in general and His new creation in particular. We see this in (Matthew 22:42-46, 1 Corinthians 15:20-26, Ephesians 1:19-22, 1 Peter 3:22, Hebrews 1:1-3, 12:2, Revelation 3:21).

Christ already came. He now exercises all power and authority today over His people – true Israel – in the earth. He reigns victoriously upon David's throne from true Jerusalem above, not Christ-rejecting Jerusalem below. He is reigning now in Sion – true Sion.

I'll assume you aren't deliberately getting scriptures misconstrued.

Paul wrote those passages after the resurrection, within which you claim Jesus was already reigning. Yet you fail to see the future tenses.

Here's one:

Revelation 20:6,
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign (not already reigning) with him for a thousand years. (NIV)

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection that we partake in when we are born again. Because we partake in Christ's resurrection (the first), we are spared the second death that comes with the bodily resurrection at the Second Coming. Contrary to what Premils argue, this is absolute unequivocal corroborative proof that Christ is indeed "the first resurrection" in time and in importance.

The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Revelation 2:11 and Revelation 20:6 mirror each other. The reason being they are speaking about the same reality in the same age – spiritual victory in this current age. Like Revelation 20:6, this is speaking about a current spiritual state (salvation) that allows the Christian to escape eternal punishment. It is the same message in each passage because we are looking at the same author.
The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

John was caught up to heaven to see what was happening in the here-and-now. He also saw past and future events. Future things were given in a future tense; past things in the past tense and current things were given in the present tense. What is more, please see John's MO at presenting salvation alone as man's only means of victory over eternal punishment. Nowhere does he present the physical resurrection of the just as that event. The reason is that (1) it doesn't make sense and (2) it wouldn't include all the elect.

There is no contradiction in the tenses. Revelation 20:6 shows (what we all know) that salvation must come first before we receive power, authority and reign. That is why "hath part" is in the present tense, and "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years” is future. It is demonstrating sequence. After salvation comes heavenly power and victory over everlasting punishment.

Lets be a bit analytical shall we?

You say there's no millenial reign. So Christ's reign technically ends at His second coming, right?

Scripture says in 1 Corinthians 15:25-26,

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (NIV)

Now where in scripture was death destroyed?

In Revelation 20:13-14,

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire...(KJV)

So death is destroyed at the time the dead are jugded.

Which dead are these? The same ones who come to life a thousand years later.

Revelation 20:4 & 5

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)...(NIV)

For your sake, lets assume the resurrection in the scripture above was Christ's resurrection.

According to you, Death is destroyed almost two thousand years after the resurrection.

But according to that scripture, Death is destroyed a thousand years after the resurrection.

Please reconcile that.

No, this actually proves Amil. Rev 20 is happening now. These 2 chapters correlate.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,042
3,450
USA
Visit site
✟202,084.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It was that specific generation (group of people living at that time) that God's wrath/salvation was going to fall on - just as the Old Testament prophets had foretold (and Jesus had pronounced).

Deuteronomy 32:5, 35-36 ~ "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation.
Vengeance is Mine; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; for their day of disaster is near, and their doom is coming quickly.” For the LORD will vindicate His people and will have compassion on His servants when He sees that their strength is gone and no one remains, slave or free.

Isaiah 35:4 ~ Say to those with anxious hearts: “Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance. With divine retribution He will come to save you.”

Malachi 3:1 ~ “Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Matthew 23:31-36 ~
“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

You impose your constant focus on the coming of Titus and AD70 the scared pages, but the early Church were focused on Christ - their Redeemer! Christ had already secured their redemption at Calvary. Their sin had been eternally defeated. They had been supernatural sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Your position doesn't add up on so many fronts. What is more, you don't address any of the many contradictions in your position. You just keep avoiding the rebuttals and keep quoting the party line. This does nothing to advance Preterism. Actually, it testifies to its unscriptural nature. I refer you back to my last avoided post.
 
Upvote 0

Christian Gedge

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,214
1,361
Waikato
Visit site
✟227,210.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you are an Amil, you are a partial preterist. If you believe any part, but not necessarily all, of the olivet discourse was fulfilled in the 1st century, you are a partial preterist.

Im trying to be an Im-partial :angel:
 
  • Like
Reactions: claninja
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Can you point out in that verse(Revelation 20:4) where it mentions heaven then, since I'm assuming you think heaven is meant? But if it mentions neither heaven or earth, how can you then claim, since it doesn't mention the earth, the earth is not meant then. And then turn right around and use opposite reasoning when it comes to your position? Your position would be---even though it doesn't mention heaven, it is still meaning heaven. How is that any different than---even though it doesn't mention earth, it is still meaning earth?

How can the souls of them that were beheaded for Christ be on earth?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
If you are an Amil, you are a partial preterist. If you believe any part, but not necessarily all, of the olivet discourse was fulfilled in the 1st century, you are a partial preterist.

You can believe all that and if you believe antichrist is future, then you are a partial futurist.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
heresy attached to many Preterist beliefs
If you're bringing up Paul's rebuke of Hymenaeus and Philetus (AGAIN) - that's a straw man argument to begin with. Paul never corrected them on the nature of the resurrection they were referring to - just the timing (they had to have been a teaching of a spiritual resurrection in order for believers to be writing to Paul to address their confusion). Do you know what I mean? If Paul's teaching was limited to the final physical resurrection.....of living and dead - then how could His followers be confused that they may have missed it......and why would they write to Paul? Shouldn't Paul have been resurrected, if this was all in reference to a physical transformation and "carrying away"? Wouldn't they have KNOWN whether or not living people were being physically caught away? Wouldn't they, themselves, have experienced *something* (I can't think of anyone being excluded from the categories living and dead) had this event have occurred in that physical nature?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Christian Gedge

Well-Known Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,214
1,361
Waikato
Visit site
✟227,210.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't own that name (or will) because of the confusion and error that comes with Preterism and also the heresy attached to many Preterist beliefs.

Whether we like it or not, we are all partial Preterists and partial Futurists as well! The heresy lies in the extremes of these 2 positions. That is why I prefer to call myself a 'Historicist' but I have to admit Historicism has had its share of heretics.
So, now I call myself a 'new-style Historicist.' :idea: Very rare.
 
  • Like
Reactions: claninja
Upvote 0

Messenger 3k

Active Member
Aug 4, 2018
322
53
New Jersey
✟38,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This is playing with words!

No Kimosabe, it's aligning scriptures with scriptures.

You're are merely throwing irrelevant scriptures around like a dice and hoping they land on something favorable.

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6.

Don't be funny. How could John have being describing a current reality (in his time) with future tenses?

Revelation 20:6,

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (not they are) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (not are reigning) with him a thousand years. (KJV)

The Greek for “that hath part” is...

Don't give me Greek renderings or weak's concordance. Align scriptures with scriptures for me.

The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now.

Now this is trying too hard. I'm just dumbfounded.

No, this actually proves Amil. Rev 20 is happening now. These 2 chapters correlate.

This ought to be interesting...

How is Revelation 20 happening now?
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You impose your constant focus on the coming of Titus and AD70 the scared pages, but the early Church were focused on Christ - their Redeemer! Christ had already secured their redemption at Calvary. Their sin had been eternally defeated. They had been supernatural sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Your position doesn't add up on so many fronts. What is more, you don't address any of the many contradictions in your position. You just keep avoiding the rebuttals and keep quoting the party line. This does nothing to advance Preterism. Actually, it testifies to its unscriptural nature.
I don't know how this can be ignored. The point is that Jesus is God - He proved it. He fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. I'm not putting the emphasis on Titus (or anyone else but Jesus). Humans were God's instruments of His wrath and righteousness (as it's been through history and will continue) This is Jesus Himself speaking - recorded in Matthew 23:

v. 29-36 ~
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that
upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.



Luke 21:20 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.




Deuteronomy 32: 35-42 ~
Vengeance is Mine; I will repay.i

In due time their foot will slip;

for their day of disaster is near,

and their doom is coming quickly.”For the LORD will vindicate His peoplej

and will have compassion on His servants

when He sees that their strength is gone

and no one remains, slave or free.37He will say: “Where are their gods,

the rock in which they took refuge,38which ate the fat of their sacrifices

and drank the wine of their drink offerings?

Let them rise up and help you;

let them give you shelter!
See now that I am He;

there is no God besides Me.


I bring death and I give life;

I wound and I heal,

and there is no one

who can deliver from My hand.For I lift up My hand to heaven and declare:

As surely as I live forever,when I sharpen My flashing sword,

and My hand grasps it in judgment,

I will take vengeance on My adversaries

and repay those who hate
Me.I will make My arrows drunk with blood,

while My sword devours flesh—

the blood of the slain and captives,

the heads of the enemy leaders.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There is no way that is all happening in one day.
lets look at it chronologically. The day described is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half of the city is taken captive; now this invasion will certainly encompass more than a day but on a day when it is dark in the morning and light at night the LORD comes with His saints. Now this is certainly a single day. On that day the Mt of Olives splits in two and a river forms. That is one day. The enemies of the LORD are melted. One day as described many places. The LORD is now king over the earth; the transfer of power is when the LORD comes. Satan is bound and AC and False prophet are thrown into the fire. All the same day. In that day they will say the LORD is one. Now this is clearly Jesus and who is saying this? Israel says the LORD is one and now Jesus is clearly revealed as Joseph was to His brothers. They are confessing Jesus is LORD. The nations which are left from that time onward will need to keep the feast of Tabernacles or get no rain. This shows life continuing on earth after this great day of transition.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: DavidPT
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How can the souls of them that were beheaded for Christ be on earth?

When a person initially dies, there is no such thing as their soul has died then. Only their body has died. The text in Revelation 20:4 indicates the following----and I saw the souls of them--- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously what is meant, since these in verse 4 had literally physically died at some point,
when the text says---and they lived---it is meaning as in again. That only makes sense if this is meaning a resurrection unto bodily immortality. And if it's meaning a resuurection unto bodily immortality, then that only makes sense if there is the 2nd coming of Christ first. What doesn't make sense is reigning as disembodied souls with Christ a thousand years in heaven. Heaven doesn't go by earthly time. A thousand years are only relevant to something earthly. What is going on here then, Christ and His bodily resurrected saints are governing those unsaved of the nations spared at His 2nd coming, with a rod of iron, thus making the scene the earth.

And besides, the following also proves it.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

No one is being surrounded in heaven, they are being surrounded on the earth. There is zero connection with verse 4 with that of verses 7-8, if verse 4 the scene is heaven, but in verses 7-8 the scene is the earth. Why would there be a total disconnect like that?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.