Abortion

Dave Ellis said:

If he saw things were very good, knowing what would happen (as he's all knowing), then the current state of the world is what god intended it to be.

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No; it's man who has messed it up - human beings say "stuff God, we'll do it our way".
And look how that's turned out.

pleinmont said:

If your religion works for you fine, but it never worked for me, and I am glad I lost it.

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That's up to you.

Strong in Him said:

No; it's man who has messed it up - human beings say "stuff God, we'll do it our way".
And look how that's turned out.

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So, you're saying that not all things happen according to god's plan then?

That's in direct conflict with what the bible says, how do you justify your position?

Dave Ellis said:

Which is irrelevant... If all happens according to god's plan, then whatever moves black decides to make will also be predetermined by the plan.

The fact white will win is part of the plan, and all of the moves from both teams would also happen according to the plan. That's what "all happens according to god's plan" means.

If all happens according to god's plan, then there is only one sequence of moves that black can make from this point on until they are eventually checkmated. If god's plan has you moving the black rook forward three spaces on your next move, you don't really have any option. All you have is the illusion of a choice.

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The 'plan' is the sum total of all of the sequences of moves that will eventually force checkmate. Black can play anything he wants, but the plan still accounts for it. You're thinking too linearly.

Dave Ellis said:

But the bible does not say god's plan is the overall long term picture, it says all things happen according to god's plan based on what he decided at the beginning.

Ephesians 1:11 - All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.

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All things that need to be done, will be done. God doesn't care if you choose to wear black or blue or odd socks today. This is your free will.

God's overall plan is to collect a people unto himself, a people who have chosen to follow him. It is also your free will to choose to be an Atheist. Unless one of your actions impedes God's plan then God has no plans for you since you have already chosen not to follow him.

The reality is your solution doesn't work either, major events are made up of thousands of small decisions by people. It's like the butterfly effect, minor decisions or events can be critical. For example, if Franz Ferdinand's driver had not decided to change his route, the archduke likely would not have been assassinated. If he wasn't assassinated, then there's no catalyst for world war one. Without world war one, there's likely no rise of the nazi's, no second world war, no holocaust, etc. There's likely no communist revolution in Imperial Russia. The European monarchies wouldn't have fallen, and the European empires of the 1800's would have stayed in a dominant position of power for much longer, maybe even to the present day. The course of global politics was changed forever because of what side street Archduke Franz Ferdinand's driver decided to drive down at that particular time of day. You can't separate minor decisions from major events. It's all ultimately intertwined.

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The point is God foresaw that. He already knew that the driver would change his route and he knew that the archduke would be assassinated. That was the driver's free will. if the archduke dying that day had harmed the overall plan, God would have had some way of preventing his death. One thing we do know is that God does not orchestrate or cause sin. The person who assassinated the archduke committed murder, this was their own free will too.

What major world leader never rose to power and changed the course of history, because he went into work five minutes later than planned and was killed in a car crash on the way? We'll never know, but I bet there's countless examples that if minor events went a slightly different way that we could find ourselves living in a very different world.

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Your argument is taking his assassination and the World war as being absolutely tied together, it isn't. Germany wanted war, it would have happened if the archduke had died that day or not, only the blame would have been placed on something else.

Dave Ellis said:

So, you're saying that not all things happen according to god's plan then?

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No, I'm saying that when God created it was all very good, Genesis 1:31.
He did not plan, or will, that Adam would disobey him. He knew that he would, and made provision for it - but he did not say "this is my creation which is VERY good; now, how can I mess it up and destroy it?"

The previous posts don't do the Biblical god any favours, they try to make excuses for its evil character if it exists.

Or if not evil, then amoral to a point that right and wrong don't matter versus executing whatever plan it has, the ends justifying the means where humans, in the Christian view, don't tend to have meaningful free will, not only because of some sin nature, but God's own foreknowledge and ability to create the scenario as it did

pleinmont said:

The previous posts don't do the Biblical god any favours, they try to make excuses for its evil character if it exists.

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That's your opinion, and how you see it.

Strong in Him said:

That's your opinion, and how you see it.

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And one is supposed to take your opinion more seriously, why? If this just boils down to people having an opinion, how are you not slipping into postmodernism?

muichimotsu said:

And one is supposed to take your opinion more seriously, why? If this just boils down to people having an opinion, how are you not slipping into postmodernism?

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No, I was sharing my faith and what the Bible says. If you reject the Bible and are not interested in my faith; so be it.

The defence of the Christian faith is not the subject of this thread; but my views on abortion are affected by what the Bible says, because I am a Christian. That's all.

Strong in Him said:

No, I was sharing my faith and what the Bible says. If you reject the Bible and are not interested in my faith; so be it.

The defence of the Christian faith is not the subject of this thread; but my views on abortion are affected by what the Bible says, because I am a Christian. That's all.

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Affected is not the same as seemingly being the only standard one would use, the latter is myopic, that's the problem in any discussion where you constrain what you want to hear

muichimotsu said:

Affected is not the same as seemingly being the only standard one would use,

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For me, it would have been the main standard - though what I might have done if pregnant as a result of rape, I'm not sure. I have never been, and never will be, pregnant, so it's academic.

If someone doesn't share my faith or believe the Bible, they will use a different standard/belief to determine what they do. It would not be for me to force the Bible onto a pregnant woman who doesn't believe the Bible.

coffee4u said:

Children are ... human life from the moment of conception.

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Human life is not protected. Human beings are.

ToddNotTodd said:

An omnipotent god could have created humans with the ability to choose to do acts that we call evil, but without any desire to do so. Free will. No evil acts.

The fact that this isn’t the case indicates that if an omnipotent god exists, this god wanted evil acts to occur more than not.

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Your assuming that this can happen without any implications. I am not sure if you are an expert on these things. You would have to know more than God. How do we know that removing the desire not to do evil acts doesn't remove other things that make us human. Besides I would think removing the desire to do evil would make evil itself meaning less and that is more or less removing goodness and love.

stevevw said:

Your assuming that this can happen without any implications.

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The implication would be a world without evil acts.

How do we know that removing the desire not to do evil acts doesn't remove other things that make us human.

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Does my lack of desire to kill, steal, rape etc. make me less human than someone that does?

Besides I would think removing the desire to do evil would make evil itself meaning less and that is more or less removing goodness and love.

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Ask a rape victim if they prefer living in a world where rape exists because the “grand tapestry of existence”, which includes evil acts, makes helping an old lady across the street more “meaningful”.

I think you’re going to have to do better than that...

NxNW said:

In my example, you can get as close as you want.

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The deciding factor, according to you, was the quality of being counted. Distance is irrelevant.

Dave Ellis said:

The fact you accept or believe something doesn't mean it's true. If you're going to make laws to govern the land, you had better ground those laws in objective and demonstrable facts.

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We have yet to see the "demonstrable fact" that the unborn are not persons deserving protection of life.

Just because you believe in spirits, souls and angels is not a compelling reason to think those are real things. If another religious group tried passing laws based on their theology, you'd be making the same arguments I am against their efforts.

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Sure, just assume what I might say, with no actual specific situation offered for example. Sounds legit.

Come back with some evidence, laws should not be based on theology alone.

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Which is why I based my argument on science/biology/medicine and logic.

Schlauch Mann said:

Which is why I based my argument on science/biology/medicine and logic.

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Logic dictates that there’s a fundamental difference between a first trimester fetus, which doesn’t have higher brain functions, and a person that does. And that we already use this same designation to deny rights in other situations.

ToddNotTodd said:

Logic dictates that there’s a fundamental difference between a first trimester fetus, which doesn’t have higher brain functions, and a person that does. And that we already use this same designation to deny rights in other situations.

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"A difference" doesn't automatically equate to "a difference that justifies denying the right to life". You need to explain the specific rights and situations you are referring to.

NxNW said:

Human life is not protected. Human beings are.

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Human life is a human being and should be protected. I don't know why you keep wanting to go around this circle with me but it won't change just because you post again.
I believe human life, human beings and even personhood occurs from the moment of conception because each person gains their soul. How the human looks and its capabilities are of no account because it is the soul that matters.
I believe each unborn child whisked away into the garbage is murder and that those causing it will answer to God for each and every one of them.
I believe the unborn should have as many rights as the born.

There it is. I will not change my position. You are free to believe whatever you want but since I don't see 'God' in your bio I won't be paying a bit of attention to it.