The cause of obedience

BBAS 64

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It must be a command-or else we wouldn't also be admonished to remain faithful, to remain in Christ. Either way it's both a command and a gift, because it's the right thing to do while still impossible to do without grace. It's the first real step back to God for man, in answering His call. The main point is that He must call us; He must take the initiative and even give sufficient grace to answer, but we can still refuse to answer.


Good Day, fhansen

Ok it is a command so believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is a command.

so "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

The effective primary cause of the command to believe is only done when God puts his Spirit in us?

I agree the work that God does in giving putting and removing is a gracious action on his part, and that His grace is the sufficient self defined cause for his doing.

Not sure where the call come in to this passage do believe Gods' call has a direct purpose?

In Him,

Bill
 
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fhansen

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Good Day, fhansen

Ok it is a command so believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is a command.

so "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

The effective primary cause of the command to believe is only done when God puts his Spirit in us?

I agree the work that God does in giving putting and removing is a gracious action on his part, and that His grace is the sufficient self defined instrumental cause for his doing.

Not sure where the call come in to this passage do believe Gods' call has a direct purpose?

In Him,

Bill
Ok, from my understanding, as well as the way this all makes most sense to me, is that the Spirit stirs and draws and enables us to believe, He "establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom", is one way I've heard it taught. And yet it continues:
"When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight."

We're invited to conversion according to this same teaching. So the Spirit doesn't just overwhelm us and drop a new heart of flesh in us; He's always a gentlemen, seeking to finally guide us into making the right choice- and continuing to do so. And other factors are involved as well. The experience of this life, a life of exile from God, essentially lacking His direct control in our moral world with all that entails including the experience-or knowledge-of both good and evil, the good inherent in God's creation alongside the sin and evil that we're all exposed to and participate in here on earth due to man's will reigning, and due to death, the wages of sin, can teach us to hate and to shun evil in favor of good, the ultimate Good being God, Himself. It's always been about the human will, which is the reason for the centuries long "education" of man beginning immediately after the Fall, through God's dealings with His chosen people, and up to the advent of Christ when the full and final revelation was made. We just don't have to choose the light; we can remain in darkness instead; we can continue to prefer ourselves to God, another teaching describing Adam's sin of disobedience.
 
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com7fy8

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Paul while just after he understood what coveting was (age 10 maybe), desired not to sin (Ro. 7), but did not have the power. Where is God ever happy with just the desire not to sin, if you are sinning?
I would say God's power has a person succeed to desire not to sin. So, if someone desires not to sin, this is in sharing with God making us able to desire not to sin. Plus, His power has us succeeding in not sinning.
 
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bling

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I would say God's power has a person succeed to desire not to sin. So, if someone desires not to sin, this is in sharing with God making us able to desire not to sin. Plus, His power has us succeeding in not sinning.
Do you not sin anymore?

God has given all mature adults the power to not "want" to sin, but they do not on their own have the power not to sin every time.
 
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BBAS 64

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Ok, from my understanding, as well as the way this all makes most sense to me, is that the Spirit stirs and draws and enables us to believe, He "establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom", is one way I've heard it taught. And yet it continues:
"When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight."

We're invited to conversion according to this same teaching. So the Spirit doesn't just overwhelm us and drop a new heart of flesh in us; He's always a gentlemen, seeking to finally guide us into making the right choice- and continuing to do so. And other factors are involved as well. The experience of this life, a life of exile from God, essentially lacking His direct control in our moral world with all that entails including the experience-or knowledge-of both good and evil, the good inherent in God's creation alongside the sin and evil that we're all exposed to and participate in here on earth due to man's will reigning, and due to death, the wages of sin, can teach us to hate and to shun evil in favor of good, the ultimate Good being God, Himself. It's always been about the human will, which is the reason for the centuries long "education" of man beginning immediately after the Fall, through God's dealings with His chosen people, and up to the advent of Christ when the full and final revelation was made. We just don't have to choose the light; we can remain in darkness instead; we can continue to prefer ourselves to God, another teaching describing Adam's sin of disobedience.


Good Day, fhansen

I recognize the first part of this from the RC Catechism ..

I have a question here if I may:

"So the Spirit doesn't just overwhelm us and drop a new heart of flesh in us; He's always a gentlemen, seeking to finally guide us into making the right choice- and continuing to do so. "

I do not see giving some one a new heart as ungentlemanly but a purely gracious act, now knocking some on off a beast of burden and striking them blind. I guess depending on your subjective view of what constitutes "gentlemanly" could be stretched.

So the Spirit works for the direct purpose of leading us to make the right choice and does so continually. So at what time does the Spirit learn or know that His efforts for His purposes are not sufficient to bring about His desired result?


Is it before He even starts... is it after a certain time period, or is it when the person (object of His work) passes away?

In Him

Bill
 
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fhansen

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Good Day, fhansen

I recognize the first part of this from the RC Catechism ..

I have a question here if I may:

"So the Spirit doesn't just overwhelm us and drop a new heart of flesh in us; He's always a gentlemen, seeking to finally guide us into making the right choice- and continuing to do so. "

I do not see giving some one a new heart a ungentlemanly, now knocking some on off a beast of burden and striking them blind. I guess depending on your subjective view of what constitutes "gentleman" could be stretched.
Paul experienced a special work of grace involved in God's plan of salvation, as Mary, for example, was also given. Few of us can relate.
So the Spirit works for the direct purpose of leading us to make the right choice and does so continually. So at what time does the Spirit learn or know that His efforts for His purposes are not sufficient to bring about His desired result?
"Gentleman" may not be the best choice of words but in any case He's courteous; He won't completely dominate or override our wills. He has to learn nothing; it's a matter of His will. Free will has a purpose in man, and God's interference denies its existence and compromises His purpose for it. Man is "left in the hands of his own council", for better or worse, to choose how he'll live his life. He needs grace in order to even begin to get on the right track, because he's lost and doesn't have a clue where to start, but he can still refuse to participate in the journey regardless of how much light he's been shown.
Is it before He even starts... is it after a certain time period, or is it when the person (object of His work) passes away?
He grants grace, like with the servant receiving talents in Matt 25. Some do one thing with it, others do another. But they're all His servants to begin with even though one was booted from the kingdom in the parable, for doing nothing with what he was given. We're judged based on what we did with whatever we're given, some receiving more, some less, and God expecting more from those given more. Luke 12:48

Basically Adam was given free will and freely chose wrongly, abusing that gift. God's patient work ever since, throughout "salvation history", has been to ultimately steer man back to making the right choice.
 
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