The cause of obedience

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

I posted this to provide a biblical response to a question about our obedience to God. I was surprised at the push back on this verse and its clear meaning.

EZE 36 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

My take (short) on this verse is - His work of giving, removing and replacing, and putting His Spirit has direct effects that are the direct appointed purpose of his doing. Which are causing us to walk in His statues, and obeying His rules.

Why do some people find this verse and its clear language so hard to accept?

What is the primary and effective cause of obeying God rules?


In Him,


Bill

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The only right cause or motivation for obedience is love. This is why it's said that love fulfills the law (Rom 12) and this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are; they literally define righteousness for man. And they are the only commandments that cannot be faked or done strictly out of fear or obligation or desire for gain, etc.; the only way to fulfill them is to actually love. And that kind of love is only obtainable via God. That's what it means to be given hearts of flesh, and that's what it means for God to place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jer 31). God, alone, can justify man and obedience comes to the extent that we're transformed into the image of God Himself, who is love and whose own motivations for the good He does for us is love. We just need to remain open to the work the Holy Spirit wants to do in us. Anyway, I appreciate the words of Basil of Caesarea, a fourth century believer:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

Obedience to righteousness makes perfect the spirit of the righteous ones in favor & acceptance of God as judge.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Bling

Indeed even has his adopted children we do.

Love is a powerful motivator when borne out of a Heart of flesh. He gives us new desires.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."


In Him,

Bill

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Being called out of Egypt is the easy part with so many miracles but being sustained in the wilderness when your faith is tested. Well, that will soon show if we are worthy as Abraham was. How did Abrahams faith set him apart? He believed and trusted God even for the seemingly impossible. That was a glimpse of the power of the Kingdom!

I don't know why the OP is getting push back.

I often teach that the Jews could not obey the Covenant because they didn't have the Holy Spirit giving them guidance and power. All they had was human effort, so they always failed.

But we have the Holy Spirit, so we can obey the New Covenant.

BBAS 64 said:

You get that from the posted text how.. care to walk us though that?

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I get it from the many verse that put belief before salvation.

com7fy8 said:

I believe a sinful person on one's own can not desire not to sin, meaning desiring to truly change. The person's carnal mind can not please God > Romans 8:7 < and can not be subject to God, including being subject by desiring in the right way to not sin.

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Paul while just after he understood what coveting was (age 10 maybe), desired not to sin (Ro. 7), but did not have the power. Where is God ever happy with just the desire not to sin, if you are sinning?

com7fy8 said:

The person, though, can desire not to do certain sin things because of how they are spoiling the person's selfish life. In such cases, the motive of the desire is wrong, though it is to not sin.

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You really think that is Paul’s problem when he found out what coveting meant (maybe around 10) and he could not keep from coveting even though he wanted not to covet?

com7fy8 said:

For example, a gambler might even ask God to stop the person's gambling, but only because the person wants money for doing other things which could get the person killed, even.

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Wow, so you feel that way about people with a gambling problem?

com7fy8 said:

So, I would say, that without God changing a sinful person, the person can not get oneself to truly and rightly desire not to sin. The freedom of the person's will is limited to the person's character, I would say.

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Read Paul’s description again and show me where Paul truly and rightly cannot desire not to sin, comes through?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Renniks

Attempting to create a supposed contradiction does not change the clear meaning and intention of the text posted.

Would you care to deal with the text?

In Him,

Bill

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The text in Ezekiel is telling us what God promises for those who love him. To read it as some kind of deterministic formula that will happen to everyone regardless, would make one a universalist.
As far as Israel goes, he is doing it in response to their repentance.
"Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them."

BBAS 64 said:

I would submit that needed believing very easily could fall in to the category of God's statues or rule.

If one agrees that the call to believe is a command then you have to classify it as a statue if not a rule.

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It must be a command-or else we wouldn't also be admonished to remain faithful, to remain in Christ. Either way it's both a command and a gift, because it's the right thing to do while still impossible to do without grace. It's the first real step back to God for man, in answering His call. The main point is that He must call us; He must take the initiative and even give sufficient grace to answer, but we can still refuse to answer.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

jamieson fausset and brown note on verse 26...

26. new heart--mind and will.
spirit--motive and principle of action.
stony heart--unimpressible in serious things; like the "stony ground" ( Mat 13:5, 20 ), unfit for receiving the good seed so as to bring forth fruit.
heart of flesh--not "carnal" in opposition to "spiritual"; but impressible and docile, fit for receiving the good seed. In Eze 18:31 they are commanded, "Make you a new heart, and a new spirit." Here God says, "A new heart will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Thus the responsibility of man, and the sovereign grace of God, are shown to be coexistent. Man cannot make himself a new heart unless God gives it ( Phl 2:12, 13 ).

Commentary on Ezekiel 36 by Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

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And yet those interpreatins can be seen as simply stemming from a preheld deterministic viewpoint.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, fhansen

I guess they could... and I guess they could not.
Feel free to offer an other commentary if you like, or maybe deal with the OP and text offered there.

In Him,

Bill

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Alright, thanks Bill. I already have responded above to the OP I believe.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

I posted this to provide a biblical response to a question about our obedience to God. I was surprised at the push back on this verse and its clear meaning.

EZE 36 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

My take (short) on this verse is - His work of giving, removing and replacing, and putting His Spirit has direct effects that are the direct appointed purpose of his doing. Which are causing us to walk in His statues, and obeying His rules.

Why do some people find this verse and its clear language so hard to accept?

What is the primary and effective cause of obeying God rules?


In Him,


Bill

Click to expand...

The difference comes in what those laws are: most Christians say it is the two things Christ said (love the Most High with all of our heart and might, and love others as you love yourself). Usually, the important context that Christ stated - that all of the law and prophets lie with these two rules - is missed, or purposefully ignored (as it would imply that we do, in fact, have to follow the laws previously given by the Most High to us).

So, then, the issue becomes: are you a legalist, or one of faith (as if the two - obedience and faith - are separate). Of course legalism has nasty implications, but this is what it comes down to.

Kaon said:

The difference comes in what those laws are: most Christians say it is the two things Christ said (love the Most High with all of our heart and might, and love others as you love yourself). Usually, the important context that Christ stated - that all of the law and prophets lie with these two rules - is missed, or purposefully ignored (as it would imply that we do, in fact, have to follow the laws previously given by the Most High to us).

So, then, the issue becomes: are you a legalism, or one of faith (as if the two - obedience and faith - are separate). Of course legalism has nasty implications, but this is what it comes down to.

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I agree with this; with the new Covenant man is still obligated to righteousness, to obeying God's will-he always will be. The difference is in how that righteousness is achieved: on our own while "under the law", which is futile, or by God, via the Spirit, under grace, the only right and true way. Man needs God; that's what Adam didn't get. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5