LDS One Essence

Daniel Marsh said:

2 Thessalonians 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

2 Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2 Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3 Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell. 4 He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.

5 I told you before that all these things would happen. Remember? 6 And you know what is stopping that Man of Evil now. He is being stopped now so that he will appear at the right time. 7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world now. But there is one who is stopping that secret power of evil. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that Man of Evil will appear. But the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth. The Lord will come in a way that everyone will see, and that will be the end of the Man of Evil.

9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved. 11 So God will send them something powerful that leads them away from the truth and causes them to believe a lie. 12 They will all be condemned because they did not believe the truth and because they enjoyed doing evil.


When you read your proof text friend, in context, the text proves that the great apostasy still has not happened yet.

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I see that the ERV is some what different than the KJV saying "And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears" instead of "and that man of sin be revealed" Thank you for your post.

Andrewn said:

Does it make a difference?

I don't know what this thread is about anymore. It was started to discuss the essence of Christ .

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It does make a difference as far as the time line is concerned.

Andrewn said:

Does it make a difference?

I don't know what this thread is about anymore. It was started to discuss the essence of Christ .

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Your right. Is the substance of God and Jesus different than Jesus's body of flesh and bone and spirit?

Peter1000 said:

Your right. Is the substance of God and Jesus different than Jesus's body of flesh and bone and spirit?

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There is no proof in the Bible that God the Father, nor God the Holy Spirit has a body. As for Luke 24:39, a spirit or ghost does not have blood either. These texts shows that Jesus has blood in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12
he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

Revelation 7:14I said to him, ‘Sir, you are the one that knows.’ Then he said to me, ‘These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Hebrews 9 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The Earthly and the Heavenly Sanctuaries
9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tent[a] was constructed, the first one, in which were the lampstand, the table, and the bread of the Presence; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a tent[c] called the Holy of Holies. 4 In it stood the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which there were a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat.[d] Of these things we cannot speak now in detail.

6 Such preparations having been made, the priests go continually into the first tent[e] to carry out their ritual duties; 7 but only the high priest goes into the second, and he but once a year, and not without taking the blood that he offers for himself and for the sins committed unintentionally by the people. 8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary has not yet been disclosed as long as the first tent[f] is still standing. 9 This is a symbol[g] of the present time, during which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshipper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms, regulations for the body imposed until the time comes to set things right.

11 But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come,[h] then through the greater and perfect tent[j] (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation), 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, with the sprinkling of the ashes of a heifer, sanctifies those who have been defiled so that their flesh is purified, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit[k] offered himself without blemish to God, purify our[l] conscience from dead works to worship the living God!

15 For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, because a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.[m] 16 Where a will[n] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will[o] takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Hence not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been told to all the people by Moses in accordance with the law, he took the blood of calves and goats,[p] with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, ‘This is the blood of the covenant that God has ordained for you.’ 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent[q] and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Christ’s Sacrifice Takes Away Sin
23 Thus it was necessary for the sketches of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves need better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year after year with blood that is not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Revelation 7 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The 144,000 of Israel Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, ‘Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads.’

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the people of Israel:

5 From the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

The Multitude from Every Nation
9 After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,

‘Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!’

11 And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshipped God, 12 singing,

‘Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honour
and power and might
be to our God for ever and ever! Amen.’

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, ‘Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?’ 14 I said to him, ‘Sir, you are the one that knows.’ Then he said to me, ‘These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and worship him day and night within his temple,
and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will hunger no more, and thirst no more;
the sun will not strike them,
nor any scorching heat;
17 for the Lamb at the centre of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of the water of life,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

Daniel Marsh said:

There is no proof in the Bible that God the Father, nor God the Holy Spirit has a body. As for Luke 24:39, a spirit or ghost does not have blood either. These texts shows that Jesus has blood in heaven.

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There is plenty of proof in the bible that God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. Let me give you 2 verses:
Genesis 1:26 says that man was made in the image and likeness of God. If this is true, the reverse has to also be true, which is, God is made in the image and likeness of man.

Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestled with God, who obviously had a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is in the express image of God's person. Not just the image of God, but the express image of God's person. IOW if you were to see them standing side by side like Stephen did, you would think they were twins.
They were made of the same substance, flesh and bone and spirit.

I could go on, but that is enough, this is what we believe, and we have a confirmation of this belief not only from scripture, but from JS who saw the 2 standing side by side like Stephen did also, and they revealed to him their true nature. IOW we are not guessing about the subject.

As for blood in heaven, I think your scriptures are metaphoric when it comes to blood in heaven. We do not believe that Jesus has blood flowing through his veins. We believe that pure spirit is flowing through his veins. It will be the same for us, when we are resurrected.[/QUOTE]

Peter1000 said:

There is plenty of proof in the bible that God has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. Let me give you 2 verses:
Genesis 1:26 says that man was made in the image and likeness of God. If this is true, the reverse has to also be true, which is, God is made in the image and likeness of man.

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The image and likeness of God is simply the spiritual nature. Remember the NT says, God is spirit.

Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestled with God, who obviously had a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

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Anthony Hanson The Prophetic Gospel: Study of John and the Old Testament056704064X 2006 Page 76 "The Targum of Onkelos offers 'because I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face',14 and the Targum of Palestine 'because I have seen the Angels of the Lord face to face'.i5 No doubt this substitution was facilitated by Hosea 12.4, where

Hosea 12:4 Good News Translation (GNT)
4 he fought against an angel and won. He wept and asked for a blessing. And at Bethel God came to our ancestor Jacob and spoke with him.

"WHO IS THE "MAN" JACOB WRESTLES at the ford of the Jabbok? Critical exegesis has traditionally identified him as an angel, with reliance upon ample evidence in the text: he appears out of nowhere and just as mysteriously disappears; he dislocates Jacob's hip at a touch; and Jacob himself, at the end of the episode, identifies his opponent as divine: "I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved" (Gen. 32:30). Then why is this angel called a "man" not once but throughout the entire narrated part of the passage? Even what Jacob calls "the face of God" proves less clear than one might first expect. Before the wrestling match at night, Jacob in the larger narrative anticipates seeing the face of his brother Esau whom he has cheated of birthright and blessing. When Jacob actually encounters Esau the next morning, his response echoes the exclamation quoted above: "to see your face is like seeing the face of
God, with such favor have you received me" (33:10). "
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V26N02_201.pdf

Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is in the express image of God's person. Not just the image of God, but the express image of God's person. IOW if you were to see them standing side by side like Stephen did, you would think they were twins.

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Hebrews 1 Good News Translation (GNT)
God's Word through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors many times and in many ways through the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end. 3 He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

You are reading physical image into the text. It is not there.

They were made of the same substance, flesh and bone and spirit.

I could go on, but that is enough, this is what we believe, and we have a confirmation of this belief not only from scripture, but from JS who saw the 2 standing side by side like Stephen did also, and they revealed to him their true nature. IOW we are not guessing about the subject.

As for blood in heaven, I think your scriptures are metaphoric when it comes to blood in heaven. We do not believe that Jesus has blood flowing through his veins. We believe that pure spirit is flowing through his veins. It will be the same for us, when we are resurrected.

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[/QUOTE]
I already, showed you the texts that proves Jesus' blood is in heaven. How else can one's robes be washed in his blood?

Stephen has a vision and did not see God in the flesh.

Hi Peter, none of your proof texts my friend, shows or proves that God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit has flesh and bone. Flesh and bone was used as a contrast to a ghost. When Jesus walked on the water, the disciples believed that they were seeing a ghost. And, Jesus had blood. Flesh and blood was simply used as an idiom of our sinful nature. See Gal 5

I can see how one can take Rev 7 as figurative, but how are their robes washed in his blood.

I do not see how the Hebrews 9 is figurative,

11 But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come,[h] then through the greater and perfect tent[j] (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation), 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 1

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood, he says, of goats and calves (All things are changed) but by His own Blood (he says) He entered in once for all into the Holy Place. See thus he called Heaven. Once for all (he says) He entered into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption. And this [expression] having obtained, was [expressive] of things very difficult, and that are beyond expectation, how by one entering in, He obtained everlasting redemption.

Hebrews 9:13-14

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 15 on Hebrews (Chrysostom)

From Letter 45
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(For 373.)

Let us all take up our sacrifices, observing distribution to the poor, and enter into the holy place, as it is written; 'whither also our forerunner Jesus is entered for us, having obtained eternal redemption. '...(From the same:)...And this is a great proof that, whereas we were strangers, we are called friends; from being formerly aliens, we have become fellow citizens with the saints, and are called children of the Jerusalem which is above, whereof that which Solomon built was a type. For if Moses made all things according to the pattern showed him in the mount, it is clear that the service performed in the tabernacle was a type of the heavenly mysteries, whereto the Lord, desirous that we should enter, prepared for us the new and abiding way. And as all the old things were a type of the new, so the festival that now is, is a type of the joy which is above, to which coming with psalms and spiritual songs, let us begin the fasts.
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 45 (Athanasius)

For Christ having come an High-Priest of the good things to come, by the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, nor yet by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption; for if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer, sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh, how much more the blood of Christ Hebrews 9:11? And again, Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh. CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 13 (Cyril of Jerusalem)

How can one have flesh without blood?

Daniel Marsh said:

How can one have flesh without blood?

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Given everything I've managed to survive in life, it wouldn't surprise me if I could somehow survive running out of blood.

And given how bizarre my luck's been, I might just find that out one of these days.

Daniel Marsh said:

How can one have flesh without blood?

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We believe a resurrected body is made of much finer and perfected flesh and bone and spirit. Pure spirit takes the place of blood as the nutrient giver to the body, and makes us immortal and eternal.

Daniel Marsh said:

The image and likeness of God is simply the spiritual nature. Remember the NT says, God is spirit.

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If you read Genesis 5:2-3 we see the exact same verbiage when Adam begat his son Seth. Adam begat Seth IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND IN HIS OWN LIKENESS.
IOW if you knew what Seth looked like, you knew Adam looked and felt just like him.
The same verbiage as to God and Adam.

So we believe this was not a spiritual image, but a real physical image and likeness, and we are very comfortable in our belief. You may not agree, but we know it to be true.

Critical exegesis has traditionally identified him as an angel,

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We believe that scholarly critical exegesis is not as reliable as the text, and Jacob states he wrestled with a man, and he identified that man as God. Hanson has the same belief as you, so he is trying hard to shift this text from God to an angel. But when did you ever read in the bible that an angel has flesh and bone so that he could wrestle with mortals?

He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word.

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This is correct. Jesus is an exact likeness of his Father, God's being. If Jesus has a body of flesh and bone and is the exact likeness of his God's own being, then God has to have a body of flesh and bone too. Right? If your son reflects the exact likeness of your being and we see your son, we will know what you look and feel like. It only makes sense.

You are reading physical image into the text. It is not there.

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We believe God is physical, just like his son Jesus is.
A very good example of the physical nature of God is in Exodus 33:
1) God lifted up Moses and set him in a clift of a rock?
2) God then passed by, but God put his had over the eyes of Moses, and because his hand was flesh and bone, it stopped Moses from seeing his face.
3) Then God took away his hand and Moses saw God's back parts.

If this is not a physical encounter, I don't know what to tell you.

There are many more, including Jesus mortal mission for 33 years in a body of flesh and bone, and his resurrected ministry in a resurrected body of flesh and bone. Very physical.

Stephen has a vision and did not see God in the flesh.

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The text does not indicate that God was in the flesh in this sighting in the middle of the day, (not a night vision). We can assume he was, because Jesus was in the flesh standing next to God, and since Jesus is the exact likeness of God, well you figure it out.

Peter1000 said:

If you read Genesis 5:2-3 we see the exact same verbiage when Adam begat his son

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Genesis 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Family of Adam
5 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

There are two keys you are overlooking.
God is spirit, not flesh and bone.
One can not have those without blood.
God created.
Seth and Adam begot.

So we believe this was not a spiritual image, but a real physical image and likeness, and we are very comfortable in our belief. You may not agree, but we know it to be true.

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Your tradition is reading that into the Bible.

We believe that scholarly critical exegesis is not as reliable as the text,

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They are based on the whole Bible, History, Culture of the time a book was written. And, I even quoted Scripture that plainly says it was an angel.

Hosea 12:4 Good News Translation (GNT)
4 he fought against an angel and won. He wept and asked for a blessing. And at Bethel God came to our ancestor Jacob and spoke with him.

I also quoted, an unofficial LDS journal, that says it was angel too.
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V26N02_201.pdf

This is correct. Jesus is an exact likeness of his Father, God's being. If Jesus has a body of flesh and bone and is the exact likeness of his God's own being, then God has to have a body of flesh and bone too. Right? If your son reflects the exact likeness of your being and we see your son, we will know what you look and feel like. It only makes sense.

Click to expand...

You have yet to prove that the Father is flesh and bone from the Bible, it simply is not there. Thus the above is mute.

We believe God is physical, just like his son Jesus is.
A very good example of the physical nature of God is in Exodus 33:
1) God lifted up Moses and set him in a clift of a rock?
2) God then passed by, but God put his had over the eyes of Moses, and because his hand was flesh and bone, it stopped Moses from seeing his face.
3) Then God took away his hand and Moses saw God's back parts.

If this is not a physical encounter, I don't know what to tell you.

There are many more, including Jesus mortal mission for 33 years in a body of flesh and bone, and his resurrected ministry in a resurrected body of flesh and bone. Very physical.



The text does not indicate that God was in the flesh in this sighting in the middle of the day, (not a night vision). We can assume he was, because Jesus was in the flesh standing next to God, and since Jesus is the exact likeness of God, well you figure it out.

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"17 The Lord said to Moses, ‘I will do the very thing that you have asked; for you have found favour in my sight, and I know you by name.’ 18 Moses said, ‘Show me your glory, I pray.’ 19 And he said, ‘I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you the name, “The Lord”; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But’, he said, ‘you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.’ 21 And the Lord continued, ‘See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock; 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.’"

It was only God's Glory that passed by in front of Moses. The use of body parts is figurative.

1 Timothy 6:16It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honour and eternal dominion. Amen.

Psalm 91:4 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
4 he will cover you with his pinions,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.

If we take this text literally, then God is a big Chicken.

Daniel Marsh said:

There is no proof in the Bible that God the Father, nor God the Holy Spirit has a body. As for Luke 24:39, a spirit or ghost does not have blood either. These texts shows that Jesus has blood in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12
he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

Revelation 7:14I said to him, ‘Sir, you are the one that knows.’ Then he said to me, ‘These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Hebrews 9 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The Earthly and the Heavenly Sanctuaries
9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tent[a] was constructed, the first one, in which were the lampstand, the table, and the bread of the Presence; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a tent[c] called the Holy of Holies. 4 In it stood the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which there were a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat.[d] Of these things we cannot speak now in detail.

6 Such preparations having been made, the priests go continually into the first tent[e] to carry out their ritual duties; 7 but only the high priest goes into the second, and he but once a year, and not without taking the blood that he offers for himself and for the sins committed unintentionally by the people. 8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary has not yet been disclosed as long as the first tent[f] is still standing. 9 This is a symbol[g] of the present time, during which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshipper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms, regulations for the body imposed until the time comes to set things right.

11 But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come,[h] then through the greater and perfect tent[j] (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation), 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, with the sprinkling of the ashes of a heifer, sanctifies those who have been defiled so that their flesh is purified, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit[k] offered himself without blemish to God, purify our[l] conscience from dead works to worship the living God!

15 For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, because a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.[m] 16 Where a will[n] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will[o] takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Hence not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been told to all the people by Moses in accordance with the law, he took the blood of calves and goats,[p] with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, ‘This is the blood of the covenant that God has ordained for you.’ 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent[q] and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Christ’s Sacrifice Takes Away Sin
23 Thus it was necessary for the sketches of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves need better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year after year with blood that is not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Revelation 7 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The 144,000 of Israel Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, ‘Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads.’

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the people of Israel:

5 From the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

The Multitude from Every Nation
9 After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,

‘Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!’

11 And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshipped God, 12 singing,

‘Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honour
and power and might
be to our God for ever and ever! Amen.’

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, ‘Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?’ 14 I said to him, ‘Sir, you are the one that knows.’ Then he said to me, ‘These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and worship him day and night within his temple,
and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will hunger no more, and thirst no more;
the sun will not strike them,
nor any scorching heat;
17 for the Lamb at the centre of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of the water of life,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

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Thank you for this, but is the "substance" of God and Jesus different from the body of flesh and bone and spirit that Jesus has?

Daniel Marsh said:

Genesis 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Family of Adam
5 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

There are two keys you are overlooking.
God is spirit, not flesh and bone.
One can not have those without blood.
God created.
Seth and Adam begot.

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Whether you create or beget, the result is exactly the same. God created a man in his image and in his likeness, Adam. Adam begot a man in his image and in his likeness, Seth. Seth must look and feel just like Adam. Adam must look and feel just like God.

It couldn't be a spiritual image thing, because Adam would have the same love and holiness and godliness as God, which he did not have.

So again, we believe that what we believe is true, not only from biblical readings, but from actual contact with God and Jesus. Our interpretation is different from yours and I can respect that, so unless you have some extra compelling information to give me we will have to agree to disagree.

Hosea 12:4 Good News Translation (GNT)
4 he fought against an angel and won. He wept and asked for a blessing. And at Bethel God came to our ancestor Jacob and spoke with him.

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You had to go to the GNT to find the word "angel" from Hosea that lived 800 years after Jacob?
I read the KJV and it uses the word "man" and then it says this:
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Notice Jacob not only says he saw God, but for added emphasis he said, "for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved". How many times have you seen that verbiage when someone has seen an angel? None.

So again, I believe I am on solid ground to make the argument that God is made of flesh and bone.

You have yet to prove that the Father is flesh and bone from the Bible, it simply is not there. Thus the above is mute.

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It may be mute for you, but certainly not mute for me.

while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.’"

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You simply ignore anything physical by saying "it is figurative". Not a compelling argument against the text. You are saying that Moses never really saw the 'back parts' of God.
When you say figurative, tell me what Moses really saw from that clift in a rock?

If God's glory did not include "back parts" and "his hand", then why did Moses write it in the text? You know he could have just written something like: And God's glory passed by me, and I was protected, or shielded by the Holy Spirit". Then there would be no question about this incident, but he didn't. Moses gave us interesting details that help us understand the physical nature of our God, which you simply ignore.

1 Timothy 6:16It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honour and eternal dominion. Amen.

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I will agree with Paul in this way: if God does not want you to approach him, his light can be unapproachable. However, the scriptures are crystal clear that God has shown himself to men and their lives were preserved. Jacob is one, with those exact words in the text. And Moses is another, who witnessed Gods glory and other physical body parts pass by him.
Stephen saw the glory of God, was that unapproachable, no. God was at the baptism of Jesus, was his light unapproachable? God was at the mount of transfiguration, was his light unapproachable there?

It is apparent that when God wants to be seen, he can control his light and power and energy.
Jesus was able to control his light and power and energy while he was on earth. How did he do that? Same principle.

Bottom line, I have given you what we believe and why we believe it. We will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks