The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

jerry kelso said:

1. Strongs says that Exodus 34:3 is the only time owlam means no whichhas to do with no one following Moses up the Mount. This has nothing to do with the feasts of the Lord in this context.

2. Forever in duration is that in Exodus 12:1-14. Strong says that.
You have just false applied to the wrong scripture.

3. The Passover feast is a also a perpetual feast.
Perpetual is continuous as in forever duration, but not necessarily without a break of not being able to do it.
Throughout their generations proves this because in 70 A.D. their nation was destroyed and today they cannot perform sacrifices because there is no temple.
However, today the Kingdom program with Israel is not in effect Acts 1:6-7.
The church of Jews and Gentiles celebrate the Lord’s Supper and Water Baptism today. They are outward observances for what the Lord has done in his finished work not to achieve salvation unless you believe in Baptismal Regeneration which is not scriptural.
So your whole argument against being forever as in never and it being just an English definition is wrong again.

4. I didn’t deny that there would be no sin offerings or that there would be.
I said it would not be to receive salvation.
There is no weakness in what I said because of being a paradox.

5. Animal sacrifices Isaiah 56:6-8; Jeremiah 33:18:21; Zechariah 14:16; Ezekiel 43:15-18; 46:24.
The millennial temple scriptures are found in Ezekiel 40-48.
These will be a witness to believers of what Christ did at Calvary concerning salvation.
They will be a witness as an object lesson to sinners in the millennium.
There will be sinners in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6,7; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3 Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24:28; Revelation 20:7-10.
The wild animals will be tamed but that doesn’t mean God will not use live lambs to sacrifice as object lessons.

6. Why do you want to fight against the word?
Why do you want to keep accusing dispensationalism wrongly?
If you don’t believe and understand that the law was for Israel forever then you will not understand the nature of their earthly calling and you will twist scripture and add to it or spiritualized it and this prop up straw men to try and will use word meanings to wrong scriptures etc.
You don’t even try to understand there is a possibility to have the feasts because you have got tunnel vision that can only deduce in your own hermeneutical belief.
You also don’t want to seek out the paradox in this subject and that is why you keep coming up with the same answer and accusation that dispensational belief destroys the message of Jesus and the cross. These are some of the reasons that you will always be wrong in blaming dispensationalism wrongly. Jerry Kelso

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2+2=4, not 22.

Where in Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6,7; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3 Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24:28 does it mention a millennium?

Where in Revelation 20:7-10 does it mention the reintroduction of the old covenant blood sacrifices, the rebuilding of the old temple, and the restart of the Levitical priesthood?

This is a total avoidance of the fact that you have sin offerings in your imaginary future millennium. Your fight is with Scripture, not Amils. Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Colossians 2:16-17 tells us: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Greek word translated “holyday” here is heorte meaning feast or festival. Of 27 mentions of this word in the normally precise KJV, it is interpreted “feast” in all of them apart from here.

New American Standard interprets: “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The Living Bible says, “So don't let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing-of Christ himself.”

Paul is saying here that the old covenant feasts and festivals simply served as types and shadows of things that were to come. They looked forward to the new covenant arrangement and the reality and substance in Christ. The Jews of Ezekiel’s day and Zechariah’s day would never have understood this.

Colossians 2:20-22 finally sums up the sums up the biblical position today: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

This is not talking about the moral law, it is talking about the ceremonial law. It is a redundant system. Christ took the whole old system away. The old Mosaic ceremonial law is completely gone. It is useless.

Christianity took us away from the old Mosaic ceremonial law completely. Those who argue for a return to the old system fail to see that it has been rendered obsolete through the new covenant.

Hebrews 7:18-19 makes clear: “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

This word “disannulling” is taken from the Greek word athetesis meaning cancellation.

The phrase “weakness and unprofitableness” used here to describe the old abolished system actually reads asthenes kai anopheles literally meaning: feeble and impotent useless and unprofitable.

It is hard to believe that you would promote the return, on the new earth of all places, of such a hopeless discarded arrangement.

sovereigngrace,

1. The problem is that you are trying to put words in the mouths of the dispensationalists and dispensationalism.

2. I told you once and you don’t want to believe the scriptures.

3. When Adam and Eve sinned they lost the physical rule and the spiritual rule.
The physical rule because they were kicked and refrained from returning to the garden.
The spiritual rule because they sinned and sin has consequences.
This is a scriptural fact and you cannot prove otherwise.

4. These two kingdoms had to be restored.
God will not rule with man unless he has a holy heart. Hebrews 13:14 days without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Without the blood of Jesus one cannot be saved for without blood there is no remission of sins Hebrews 10:22.
Genesis 3:15 was the prophecy about the cross.
5. Gentiles were the picture from Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham.
Abraham was a gentile but was the start of the Jewish nation which came through the line of Jacob because he was named Israel Genesis 32:28, 35:10-12 and his sons became the names of the 12 tribes of Israel Genesis 49.

6. The Jewish nation was a complete theocratic government of a physical nation who were to answer to God only.
The old covenant was the best God gave any nation.
There were to be salt to the earth and a light to the gentile world.
Matthew 5:13-16.

7. They were promised an unconditional covenant through Abraham and David concerning the promise land forever Genesis 12:1-3. Genesis 15:18-21 is the land they will inherit in the last days and this is why Jesus said in Matthew 5:5; Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
They were also promised a physical rule through David’s line, a house, a throne and a kingdom 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
This is a scriptural fact historically in Jewish biblical history and in Jesus ministry to the Jews where he taught the Kingdom of Heaven and the KoG Matthew 4:17;Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20.
Now whether you want to fight about the terms the fact is the physical and spiritual are there.
The spiritual condition is always most important because they could not physically rule the whole earthly kingdom until they repented Matthew 4:17.

8. Now the Jew knew the correlation here is the same basic need restoration of the land and man’s heart. They understood their covenants.
However, because they were in sin and wanted the physical kingdom God caused a blindness when he spoke through the parables and mysteries of the kingdom. In this way the real Jew would come to fruition.
As much you want to make a big deal out of the Bona fide offer of the kingdom
not being bona fide then is it bona fide for Jesus to keep them from being converted and healed when he preached when his will was to seek and save that which was lost?

9. It was prophesied that Israel would reject Christ Isaiah 53, the suffering Savior.
It literally happened Matthew 23:37-39, John 1:11.
Matthew 23:37; Israel’s rejection; v 38; their house left desolate; v 39; the promise of seeing Christ again when Israel will say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. This shows Israel the nation has not been forgotten and they will be a physical nation again that will be exalted above the hills: and all nations shall flow into it.
This is speaking of Israel and Judah in the last days Isaiah 1:1.
There is no getting around this unless you spiritualize scripture and use the spiritual Jew theory.
There is no reason for Paul to say in Romans 11 God has not forgotten his plan and that they had a Jewish remnant and that Israel was in blindness and that all Israel will and will forgive their sins and that they are enemies for our sakes but beloved for the fathers sake or that their gifts and callings are sure if God didn’t have a plan for them.
Paul would have said , my heart is for my kinsmen but we’re all part of the same gifts and callings and the kingdom program is exactly the same for Jews and gentiles forever.
The church has no remnant such as Israel the physical nation.

10. One more thing; Joel 1-3 shows the curse will be lifted in the Day of the Lord
In Israel and that Judah shall dwell forever and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

11. So the conclusion of the overall redemptive plan of God was to restore the physical and spiritual rule that Adam and Eve lost in the garden.
Now you can argue semantics and till your blue in the face but you cannot prove otherwise that the Jews wanted the physical kingdom without the spiritual kingdom and Jesus wanted them to have the spiritual rule to receive the physical kingdom.

12. Israel’s rejection was prophesied just like Israel’s promises of the the physical and spiritual kingdoms was prophesied except for the major difference.
Their rejection was to be a temporary chastening at times of disobedience 2 Samuel 7:14.
But his mercy to the physical house and the physical throne would never depart as he took it from Saul. Saul temporary; David forever.

13. The church was prophesied and predestined to come into the picture first and foremost.
The second reason was that Israel rejected the KoH and the KoG message.
Matthew 21:43; the Jews weren’t producing fruit by being poor in spirit; repenting; or being meek; or hungering or thirsting after righteousness; they weren’t being merciful; or pure in heart; no peacemakers in Christ day for they had 28 insurrections against Rome. They weren’t being persecuted for righteousness sake, nor were they being the salt of the earth or light to the world. Why? They were backslidden in their covenant of law. This is also why they were not blessed and exalted above nations.

All the scriptures prove that God will never forsake Israel and their calling.
Whether you believe in a millennial kingdom or straight into the New Heaven and New Earth KoG, the fact remains that Israel the physical nation will receive the unconditional promises in the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
There was no plan b as in an afterthought, God didn’t change his mind etc. To say that would be calling God a liar and that he didn’t really mean what he said in his prophecies about Israel and predestination about the church.
To accuse dispensationalism and dispensationalists is a false accusation that has been disproved time and time again according to scriptural context and logic and plain statements to the contrary.
You cannot dispute scripture.

14. After the cross, most argue that Israel was given a second chance. This is not true due to contrary belief Acts 1:6-7.
Paul left the Jews in Acts 28 because of the same reason Jesus gave of Isaiah. Read Acts 28:25-27.
They were still backslidden as a physical nation and Peter kept preaching to them but Paul went to the gentiles.
Now the reasoning of a second chance for Israel in the early church by some is that the New Covenant was established; Jesus ministry was before the cross of the New Covenant.
That would be fine except the church of Jew and Gentile wasn’t fully come to full fruition for Paul was just going to start his gentile ministry Acts 28.
So there is no logic there.
The church officially began at the cross before the Day of Pentecost concerning the body of Christ; both Jew and Gentile Ephesians 2:24-15.
It didn’t starting coming into clear fruition Acts 10 and Ephesians 2-3.

15. The church in Paul’s day was more into full throttle and one could argue that the Jews had chance at the KoH until 70 A.D. But that doesn’t make sense if you don’t believe in Israel’s earthly calling and the churches heavenly calling or that they can’t coexist together That logic is out the window and proves that the KoH program was not in effect in the early church.
Since those proponents believe in a spiritual Jew theory and we know that the body of Christ was sanctioned at Calvary there was no need for Israel to have a second chance at the KoH reign.

16. Your position is the millennium is here already.
The clearest picture with the word that means millennial is 1000 years in Revelation 20. There is no word millennial or 1000 years in Acts 2:25-35.

17. Satan is bound for 1000 years in the bottomless pit.
He is not bound today physically or spiritually 1 Peter 5:8 and he still deceives nations today otherwise they wouldn’t be serving him and living in sin. We as Christians couldn’t be tempted if he were bound and that goes for whether it is spiritual or physical.
We have no power without God to overcome the devil otherwise we wouldn’t have to overcome with the blood Revelation 12:11.
If you believe a Christian can’t sin then the writer of Hebrews lied when they said lay aside the sin that easily besets us.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer we shall reign. We are in rulership training now not in full rulership reigning spiritually or physically.
In the millennium you will be able to speak to a mountain and have it literally fall down. Today one has to have faith.
Satan is not bound today and so this scripture is future.

18. The thrones and judgements given to the martyrs of the tribulation who didn’t take the mark who sang the song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4 show they will rule and reign with Christ a 1000 years and judge.
1 Corinthians 6 shows we will judge the world and even angels.
This cannot be your 1000 years today for it is future for the world is still wicked and you probably have never seen an angel and if not you couldn’t rule them.
The context is not about the fact God can work through us spiritually to cast out demons etc. and if we are going to judge the world and angels Paul should have put it in the present tense of the present church.

19. There are 1000 years between the first resurrection and the second death.
There is no reason for God to use his thought of time in this passage as the basis to prove other scriptures in other passages.
One it is on the earth where there will still will be time for the times and seasons and planets etc. conducive for a world in time.
Also, the false prophet and the beast will be at the Day of the Lord at the physical battle of Armageddon Revelation 16; 19.
The devil is cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after where the beast and false prophet have already been Revelation 20:10.
Verses 9:7 the 1000 years will expire and be loosed out of his prison to deceive the nations in the 4 quarters of the nations.
If this is spiritual reign now we have no idea when Satan will get loose. And when he does and he deceives the nations then the church will have failed and will be defeated for we will have lost the power to rule and reign.
This can’t be because the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church.

20. The scriptures prove your false doctrine of spiritually reigning now context of the millennium now is scripturally wrong.
Since Revelation 20 is not now and in the future proves that it is before the KoG all in all of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

21. Isaiah 2:2-4 is about the last days.
Isaiah 9:6-7: This has not been fulfilled yet for Christ is not physically ruling and reigning on earth. Spiritually he is ruling from Heaven.
Also, you contradict yourself by saying it’s a spiritual rule; not in the nature of being spiritual but because you don’t believe in a physical government which is contradictory to the New Heaven and New Earth.

22. Isaiah 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; None of these have happened and it will not until Revelation 11:25 happens.
All the events of the day of the Lord are geared towards the restitution of all things.
Israel being restored to its glory spiritually and physically and the Church taking their place as rulers in the kingdom on earth when they come out of Heaven with Christ to do battle at Armageddon on the day of the Lord and creation’s curse being lifted are all connected.

23. Psalm 2:6-9 is about the Lord will be King on the day of the Lord Zechariah 14:9 upon Zion which is physical Jerusalem.
Given the heathen as an inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession is God’s promise to Israel Zechariah 14:14.
Break them with a rod of iron is authority Israel will be given for they will rule from Jerusalem with Christ Isaiah 2;2-4; 9:6-7; Zechariah 14 etc.

24. Micah 4:1-3 is basically Isaiah 2:1-4
Israel ruling and judging in the kingdom.

25. Zechariah 14:16-21; the same theme about Israel being at the head of the nations with the feast of tabernacles happenings which you said none of the feasts will be forever whether today, millennium or the last perfect state.

26. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; I already proved by scripture and scriptural logic that the millennium is not now but in the future and before the last perfect state.
This means it is automatically true.
The Lord has to reign and put his enemies under his feet before he can give the kingdom back to the Father so he can be all in all.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. This can’t be talking about Revelation 1:18 in full.
Jesus has all authority in Heaven and Earth and he hold the keys or authority of death and hell.
V 27 says he has put all things under his feet but hasn’t manifested yet or hasn’t come to full fruition.
When the son subdues everything he will will turn the kingdom back to the father and be subject to the father so God will be all in all.
God all in all will start the last perfect state of the New Heaven and the New Earth.
Hermeneutically, the word millennium doesn’t have to be used to prove in those scripture for they all harmonize together with God’s plan of redemption and Revelation 20 which the scripture proves to be literal and not just spiritual.

27. I didn’t say anything about sacrifices, the rebuilding of the temple etc. in Revelation 20:7-10.
They are in other passages and they are not a part of this context.
Asking this question shows how you don’t want to understand proper context.
If they should be anywhere it would be Revelation 11:1-3 but it isn’t.
Why do you ask such ridiculous questions?

28 Colossians 2:6-7 the sabbath and Holy days are not specific days etc. and we are not to be judged about such as in Moses day.
They were a part of the law till Calvary and we have our rest or sabbath in him as the church.
But the wording of the shadow part in that scripture is that the sabbath and Holy days etc. are now still a shadow of things to come which is future.
It is not for the body of Christ now but for the Jews in the future earthly kingdom and maybe even for us. After all it will be a full theocracy and I don’t think we will mind in that day and age to be obedient to the King. I can’t imagine one would want to argue with the Lord. Would you?
Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. The problem is that you are trying to put words in the mouths of the dispensationalists and dispensationalism.

2. I told you once and you don’t want to believe the scriptures.

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Why do Pretribbers always throw that charge out at anyone who questions their doctrine. Many of us once held to this belief and had our eyes opened. There is no biblical support for it. If it was there you would have shown it before now.

16. Your position is the millennium is here already.
The clearest picture with the word that means millennial is 1000 years in Revelation 20. There is no word millennial or 1000 years in Acts 2:25-35.

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Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

And you want Amils to take a hyper-literal approach to this number in an overwhelmingly symbolic book in the most debated chapter in Scripture. What is more, you want us to believe such a period is going to happen after the Second Coming which was unknown to any of the prophets, apostles or Christ. I don't think so!

19. There are 1000 years between the first resurrection and the second death.
There is no reason for God to use his thought of time in this passage as the basis to prove other scriptures in other passages.

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The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

One it is on the earth where there will still will be time for the times and seasons and planets etc. conducive for a world in time.
Also, the false prophet and the beast will be at the Day of the Lord at the physical battle of Armageddon Revelation 16; 19.
The devil is cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after where the beast and false prophet have already been Revelation 20:10.
Verses 9:7 the 1000 years will expire and be loosed out of his prison to deceive the nations in the 4 quarters of the nations.
If this is spiritual reign now we have no idea when Satan will get loose. And when he does and he deceives the nations then the church will have failed and will be defeated for we will have lost the power to rule and reign.
This can’t be because the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church..

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There are no mortals survivors when He comes.

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

This part of the narrative is not an account of the complete destruction of the wicked, but an exact record of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that unfolds on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs is immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed; the birds of heaven completely eating “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Revelation 19:21 concludes, “And the loipoy (or) ‘remaining ones’ (or) ‘those left behind’ were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The total annihilation described by John in Revelation 19 totally agrees with the words of Christ in Luke 17 and the rest of the New Testament writers, namely that ALL FLESH will be dissolved with the destruction of this world at the Second Coming.

20. The scriptures prove your false doctrine of spiritually reigning now context of the millennium now is scripturally wrong.

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Not so! The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. There's no conflict between the reality of us reigning on earth now, the dead in Christ reigning in heaven now, and our eternal reign when Jesus comes.

Since Revelation 20 is not now and in the future proves that it is before the KoG all in all of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

jerry kelso said:

24. Micah 4:1-3 is basically Isaiah 2:1-4
Israel ruling and judging in the kingdom.

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The last days scripturally are intra-Advent, not some alleged future age. When your doctrine requires you to invent 2 lasts days ages and 2 NHNEs then you can literally force the Bible to say whatever you want. This is crazy! The reality is: Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 refer to the here and now.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

Last days

I have already shown you in detail that the last days are now and that the last day is the climactic Second Coming.

The Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in several New Testament passages.

The Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in several New Testament passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.” The last days commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ of which this passage provides indisputable proof. Hebrews 9:26 also says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 Peter 1:19-20 also confirm that, “Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world … was manifest in these last times for you.”

Peter declared in Acts 2:16-17, alluding to the happenings on the day of Pentecost,“this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

John twice testified in I John 2:18, “it is the last time.”

2 Timothy 3:1-9 highlights the stark decline that exists before the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is certainly not speaking of period following the return of Christ. 2 Timothy 3:1 testifies: “in the last days perilous (or hard to bear, troublesome, dangerous, harsh, fierce, savage) times shall come.” Christ’s return brings an end to all this rebellion and wickedness. He comes to ushering eternal righteousness.

2 Peter 3:3-13 speaks of the sceptics who are mocking and scoffing as to the actuality of the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It reads: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?” (v4). If the last days relate to a future millennium, why would they be scoffing at an event that already occurred? Manifestly the “last days” occur before the Coming of Jesus. It relates to the period we are now in.

James 5:3 also alludes to the last days and places that period before Jesus return. He to shows the last days to be a time of greed and folly. The return of Christ brings an end to such rebellion.

These passages demonstrate that we are in the end times since Christ’s first Advent and that the last days don’t relate to another age after Christ’s appearing, as Premillennialism imagines. The “last days” clearly relate to the intra-Advent period and find their conclusion at the “last day” – Christ’s Coming. I see the “last day” (singular) of the “last days” (plural) as the all-consummating appearing of Christ, which witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgement. I believe Scripture shows that the “last days” (plural) terminate at the “last day” (singular) with the raising and judging of both the righteous (John 6:39-44, 54, 11:23-24) and the wicked (John 12:48). In all these references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always the same – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

Whilst this prophecy was initially given to Judah and Jerusalem, which at the time was the exclusive place of God’s favour on this earth, I do not believe this prophecy is restricted to them. In fact, the detail embodied within this passage proves the contrary and the fact that Isaiah was speaking of a time when the Gentiles would join the Jews in the house of God. I believe that period started with the commission of the disciples nearly 2,000 years ago.

Of the many other passages mentioning "the last days" in Scripture, there is not one "last days" passage that is identified with the period after the Second Coming. They all relate to the Church in the here-and-now.

sovereigngrace said:

Why do Pretribbers always throw that charge out at anyone who questions their doctrine. Many of us once held to this belief and had our eyes opened. There is no biblical support for it. If it was there you would have shown it before now.



Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

And you want Amils to take a hyper-literal approach to this number in an overwhelmingly symbolic book in the most debated chapter in Scripture. What is more, you want us to believe such a period is going to happen after the Second Coming which was unknown to any of the prophets, apostles or Christ. I don't think so!



The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?



There are no mortals survivors when He comes.

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

This part of the narrative is not an account of the complete destruction of the wicked, but an exact record of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that unfolds on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs is immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed; the birds of heaven completely eating “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Revelation 19:21 concludes, “And the loipoy (or) ‘remaining ones’ (or) ‘those left behind’ were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The total annihilation described by John in Revelation 19 totally agrees with the words of Christ in Luke 17 and the rest of the New Testament writers, namely that ALL FLESH will be dissolved with the destruction of this world at the Second Coming.



Not so! The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. There's no conflict between the reality of us reigning on earth now, the dead in Christ reigning in heaven now, and our eternal reign when Jesus comes.

Since Revelation 20 is not now and in the future proves that it is before the KoG all in all of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

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sovereigngrace,

1. Charge? That is all you have been doing is charging, attacking, tearing down and downright dishonest and unfair. You started this and are still at it. And it’s not just me but others that don’t believe like you.
I tried to lay some ground rules to be more civil with you and you just keep doing the same thing especially long posts and now I don’t think you like that.

2. Who or what turned you away from dispensationalism and why? Because I am really trying to understand how you could have such hatred against it.
I have a friend who have switched and they don’t hate it and we have great discussions

3. I understand this post is about flaws in dispensationalism but I believe you are way overboard.

4. If there is no biblical support for dispensationalism then you must be on here to teach us a lesson or save us from our impending doom as false teachers or most likely could it be that you just want the last word?
You want to post every detail every single time without understanding the big picture.
There is no sense in posting when you don’t want to have a civil and logical discussion. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Charge? That is all you have been doing is charging, attacking, tearing down and downright dishonest and unfair. You started this and are still at it. And it’s not just me but others that don’t believe like you.
I tried to lay some ground rules to be more civil with you and you just keep doing the same thing especially long posts and now I don’t think you like that.

2. Who or what turned you away from dispensationalism and why? Because I am really trying to understand how you could have such hatred against it.
I have a friend who have switched and they don’t hate it and we have great discussions

3. I understand this post is about flaws in dispensationalism but I believe you are way overboard.

4. If there is no biblical support for dispensationalism then you must be on here to teach us a lesson or save us from our impending doom as false teachers or most likely could it be that you just want the last word?
You want to post every detail every single time without understanding the big picture.
There is no sense in posting when you don’t want to have a civil and logical discussion. Jerry Kelso

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I refer you back to my last post. Thanks!

sovereigngrace said:

I refer you back to my last post. Thanks!

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Ahh.........last words................

jerry kelso said:

Ahh.........last words................

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For the record: the charge I challenged was:

you don’t want to believe the scriptures.

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That is unfair, and I duly rejected it! Maybe you don't realize you write these inflammatory things.

Also, it was your post #982 that was a large-scale thesis on the whole of Scripture. When I then tried to rebut your keys points, you then took offence. Hmmm!

sovereigngrace said:

For the record: the charge I challenged was:



This is unfair, and I duly rejected it! Maybe you don't realize you write these inflammatory things.

Also, it was your post #982 that was a large-scale thesis on the whole of Scripture. When I then tried to rebut your keys points, you then took offence. Hmmm!

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You were always on the offensive. I was just trying to defend the real biblical truth. You don’t seem to want that.
You tell most everybody that they have no scriptural proof and haven’t shown none when that is simply not the truth.
And you think that is fair? That is downright insulting. Fair? No!!!
What made you so hateful towards dispensationalism?
There is no justification in hating a biblical based position whether you agree with it or not.
You have a lot of truth of which I agree with, but it is just one side of the truth that you use to prop up your straw man.
Any fair apologetic knows this. You can’t pick and choose randomly in exegesis and expect everything to come out right.
Where did you learn such?

jerry kelso said:

You were always on the offensive. I was just trying to defend the real biblical truth. You don’t seem to want that.
You tell most everybody that they have no scriptural proof and haven’t shown none when that is simply not the truth.
And you think that is fair? That is downright insulting. Fair? No!!!
What made you so hateful towards dispensationalism?
There is no justification in hating a biblical based position whether you agree with it or not.
You have a lot of truth of which I agree with, but it is just one side of the truth that you use to prop up your straw man.
Any fair apologetic knows this. You can’t pick and choose randomly in exegesis and expect everything to come out right.
Where did you learn such?

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I think your frustration is more with your inability to answer the rebuttals than with me. I'm just the messenger!

I have responded to your arguments with Scripture that I believe clearly forbids Pretrib. You can either address it or avoid it.

sovereigngrace said:

I think your frustration is more with your inability to answer the rebuttals than with me. I'm just the messenger!h

I have responded to your arguments with Scripture that I believe clearly forbids Pretrib. You can either address it or avoid it.

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No, my frustration is in your posting dishonesty.
That is why you cannot recognize the truth.
No one can argue with such irrational posting. Please don’t post your false remarks again.

jerry kelso said:

No, my frustration is in your posting dishonesty.
That is why you cannot recognize the truth.
No one can argue with such irrational posting. Please don’t post your false remarks again.

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God bless!

sovereigngrace said:

God bless!

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And May God’s sovereign grace be yours! Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

And May God’s sovereign grace be yours! Jerry Kelso

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It is!!!!

sovereigngrace said:

It is!!!!

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Good!

Al Touthentop said:

That gap doesn't exist in the text. God said that the time appointed was 70 weeks, not 69 weeks plus some gap ending in an arbitrary final week. The gap is an invention of man. You can't find either the word "gap" or an implication of it in the text.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]"

That's 69 weeks until the messiah arrives. He arrived in the 69th week. In the middle of the next week, 3 1/2 years, he made a new covenant, just as was prophesied.

"And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off" - which includes the 7 weeks previously mentioned, thus 69 weeks in total so far. This "after" means that the cut off occurs after the 69 weeks and sometime in the 70th week.

"A mystery, not revealed to Daniel." But revealed to some modern day people eh? When did Gabriel reveal this to them?

If this prophecy wasn't fulfilled just as the angel told Gabriel, then we can't trust God to deliver his word. Every other time-based prophecy he's delivered to his people, like the 400 years between Abraham and the delivery of the people from bondage, the 120 years between the prophecy of the flood and its occurrence and in other places, have to be called into question. But that isn't what happened. In every case that God gave a time-limit for a prophecy, it came to pass in the time specified.

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Also the start of the 70 weeks was God's decree being published by Cyrus the Great.

Hank77 said:

Thanks for the correction. I'll take your word for it as it's been a long time since I have read Josephus, my mistake.

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Eusebius says that Christians fled to Pella and that not one died in the war.

Bible Highlighter said:

First, I want to say: Greetings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ this fine Thanksgiving Day. We have a lot to be thankful for in the Lord, my brother; And I do hope you are doing well today for His glory.

Second, I believe the KJV (Cambridge Edition circa 1900) is the perfect Word of God for our day. In fact, you may enjoy my defense of the KJV here:

Reasons why I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God.

However, while I believe the KJV (Cambridge Edition circa 1900) to be perfect and without error, and Modern Translations can be corrupt in many places; However, on the other hand, I believe that the Modern Translations can be helpful in updating the 1600's English in certain other instances (When they happen to line up with what is said in the KJV). My final word of authority is the KJV and not a Modern Translation.

Three, the portion of Daniel 11:31 that I quoted in the NIV does not say anything different than the KJV. Yes, the NIV is an extremely horrible translation in most cases, and I generally do not read it as a whole, but in this instance it helps to clarify what the KJV already says. I believe Daniel 11:31 talks about Antiochus Epiphanes who polluted the temple in the past, and it also talks about the future event of what the future antichrist setting up the image of the beast (i.e. a statue or picture to be worshiped) in the Jewish temple sometime in the upcoming future. I believe this verse to be a "Double Fulfillment" type verse. An example of a Double Fulfillment type verse is Hosea 11:1. We see both Israel, and Jesus are a fulfillment of a son being called out of Egypt. "...and out of Egypt I called my son." (Hosea 11:1).

Four, you did not address my point of when the disciples asked Jesus on what shall be the sign of Christ's coming and the end of the world (See again Matthew 24:3). I bolded in really big red letters. This is important because Jesus did not deny their question and say that there would be no sign given for His coming and the end of the world. So the Olivet Discourse is with a future "End Times" in view. You want it to be in the past, and this is simply not so. Jesus has not returned yet, and the End of the World has not happened yet. Yet, this is what the disciples asked Jesus.

The disciples replied,

"....Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(Matthew 24:3).

Five, you are not providing me with your timeline of events on how things play out in Revelation. What parts are in the past, and what parts are in the future in the book of Revelation? To be fair, here is my proposed "End Times Chronology" that attempts to harmonize the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, and certain OT passages.

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

In any event, may God bless you this fine Thanksgiving Day.
May we all give thanks to the Lord for His loving kindness (even if we may disagree on Eschatology).

Love you brother.
Peace be unto you and your family.

Sincerely,

~J.

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Thank you for your kind greetings, brother.
I am sorry I am late in replying. I have just been reading these threads again.
I think we are near the end of Revelation.
Revelation 10 refers to the glorious reformation. After the reformation the true church was told to measure the temple that is the Church and cast out the outer court. Luther did that when he excomunicated the pope, which would include all those who gave allegiance to the same.
After that the reformers wondered if there had been any who taught as they did. They then came across the writings of the Waldenses, John Huss and his followers and the Lollards, etc.
At the Diet of Worms, Luther was accused of being a Hussite which he denied, but then realised he knew nothing about what what Huss taught so went to the university library to research. He came back the next day and admitted that he was a hussites. The Pope said that the heretics had come alive in Luther.
At that point the narative folds back and covers the history of the persucuted church represented by the two witnesses, candlesticks, oliver trees. Candlesticks are churches (Revelation 1:20) They witnessed in sackcloth, that is in mourning for their loved ones. The seven churches represent the entire church, the two candlesticks represent the church in its almost depleted state. Two or three being the lowest number of witnesses legally.
BUT. There came a time when the witnessing was extinguished. The Waldensians had agreed to attend mass at least once a year. The hussites were wiped out. The Lollards may have one or two sparks. But at a council at that time, The Pope was told. "The heretics are no more." The witnesses were dead. The delegates rejoiced and gave gifts to each other. But from that day to the day that Luther pinned his theses to the church door was exactly three and a half years (three and a half prophetic days.) The witnesses stood on their feet.

Sorry if I have already posted this but this is as far as I got reading through it again

David Kent said:

Thank you for your kind greetings, brother.
I am sorry I am late in replying. I have just been reading these threads again.
I think we are near the end of Revelation.
Revelation 10 refers to the glorious reformation. After the reformation the true church was told to measure the temple that is the Church and cast out the outer court. Luther did that when he excomunicated the pope, which would include all those who gave allegiance to the same.
After that the reformers wondered if there had been any who taught as they did. They then came across the writings of the Waldenses, John Huss and his followers and the Lollards, etc.
At the Diet of Worms, Luther was accused of being a Hussite which he denied, but then realised he knew nothing about what what Huss taught so went to the university library to research. He came back the next day and admitted that he was a hussites. The Pope said that the heretics had come alive in Luther.
At that point the narative folds back and covers the history of the persucuted church represented by the two witnesses, candlesticks, oliver trees. Candlesticks are churches (Revelation 1:20) They witnessed in sackcloth, that is in mourning for their loved ones. The seven churches represent the entire church, the two candlesticks represent the church in its almost depleted state. Two or three being the lowest number of witnesses legally.
BUT. There came a time when the witnessing was extinguished. The Waldensians had agreed to attend mass at least once a year. The hussites were wiped out. The Lollards may have one or two sparks. But at a council at that time, The Pope was told. "The heretics are no more." The witnesses were dead. The delegates rejoiced and gave gifts to each other. But from that day to the day that Luther pinned his theses to the church door was exactly three and a half years (three and a half prophetic days.) The witnesses stood on their feet.

Sorry if I have already posted this but this is as far as I got reading through it again

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It is impossible that we are near the end of Revelation. The Mid Tribulation clearly has not even happened yet. Demons coming up out of the ground, and seas turning blood red, etc. 1/4th of the world being killed. Yeah, that has not happened yet.

Bible Highlighter said:

It is impossible that we are near the end of Revelation. The Mid Tribulation clearly has not even happened yet. Demons coming up out of the ground, and seas turning blood red, etc. 1/4th of the world being killed. Yeah, that has not happened yet.

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The great tribulation in Revelation is on the faithfull folowers of Christ. It was begun under the Caesars, and continued under the papacy including the inquisition. And yes I believe that was when the Demons came out of the earth, as well as the French revolution, which included the reign of terror and sparked revolutions all over Europe. 1848 was known as the year of Revolutions. Then in the 20th Century the Russian revolutions and Stalin's reign of terror. Then Franco in spain and Hitler and his reign of terror, the Serbs and Croats.

Yes I believe the demons came from the earth.
Revelation is a continuattion of the prophecies of Daniel and must fit in with the two outline prophecies in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.

THese both start with Nebuchadnezzar and end with Christ's kingdom. I believe that it really is one empire and it continues till Christ takes the kingdom. It still stands today. There is no break in it. There will be no revived Roman empire, it didn't fall, it just changed.