Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God

Mathetes66 said:

You keep going further backwards in your statements, like the one above, again ignorant of the Scriptures, what God Himself says. The very Scriptures tell us what is the truth & what is right & wrong.

The context actually is leading & guiding into all THE TRUTH. The Holy Spirit's very role is to lead & guide us into all the truth, the very truth Jesus spoke & had written down from the Father. The Holy Spirit does not lead us into & with 'apparent' error; He leads & guides us into all the truth, Who Jesus is & what He spoke & had written down.

John 14:23-26 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him & We will come to him & make Our home with him. Whoever does NOT love Me does NOT keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.

25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things & WILL REMIND YOU OF EVERYTHING I HAVE TOLD YOU.

John 16:13-15 However, when the SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes, He will guide you INTO ALL TRUTH. For He will NOT speak on His own, but He will speak WHAT HE HEARS & He will declare to you what is to come.

He will glorify Me by taking FROM WHAT IS MINE & DISCLOSING IT TO YOU. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine & disclose it to you.

We Christians have in the Bible what God says is right & wrong & are given the Holy Spirit, whereby HE empowers us to do right!

Gen 3:22 Then the Lord GOD said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us in knowing good & evil." Clear back in Genesis 3 this was true!

Micah 6:7,8 Would the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? No, O mankind, the LORD has told you what is good & this is what He requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy & to walk humbly with your God.

Jeremiah 22:3 This is what the LORD says: Administer justice & righteousness. Rescue the victim of robbery from the hand of his oppressor. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless, or the widow. Do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Ezek 33:14 So when I tell the wicked man, 'You will surely die' & he turns from his sin & DOES WHAT IS JUST & RIGHT--

John 17:6-8,17 I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me & THEY HAVE KEPT YOUR WORD. Now they know that everything You have given Me comes from You. For I have GIVEN THEM THE WORDS YOU GAVE ME & THEY HAVE RECEIVED THEM. They knew with certainty that I came from You & they believed that You sent Me.

17Sanctify them in the truth; YOUR WORD IS TRUTH. As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.

John 15:9-15 As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love. If you KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments & remain in His love.

11I have told you these things so that My joy may be in you & your joy may be complete. This is My COMMANDMENT, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

14You are My friends if you DO what I command you. NO LONGER do I call you servants, for a servant does NOT UNDERSTAND what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have MADE KNOWN TO YOU.



You again show your ignorance of the Scriptures & the power of God. Although God is perfect & not the author of confusion, He will allow a lying & confusing evil spirit access to His people, who will follow this lying spirit's words because they had already rebelled against God's spoken & written down Word & were disobeying what He had already told them. They refused to believe the truth & instead, God knew that they would believe lies.

2 Chron 18:20-22 Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD & said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. And the spirit replied, ‘I will go out & deceive all of Ahab’s prophets to speak lies.’ “‘You will succeed,’ said the LORD. ‘Go ahead & do it.’



I John 4:1-6 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God & every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming & is already in the world at this time. You, little children, are from God & have OVERCOME THEM, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

5They are of the world. That is why they speak from the world’s perspective &* the world listens to them. 6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth & the spirit of error (deception).

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil & you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar & the father of lies.

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Ok.

Mathetes66 said:

This should be embarrassing to you, cherry picking only part of a verse out of its context & ignoring the multitude of verses where the living God spoke His Word & told the prophet or apostle to write it down & give it to the people! Even the 10 commandments were written down--TWICE! And the first time it was God Himself who wrote down what He spoke to the nation of Israel from Mt. Sinai!

Ezekiel 43:10,11 As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, so that they may be ashamed of their iniquities. Let them measure the plan & if they are ashamed of all they have done, then make known to them the design of the temple—

its arrangement & its exits & entrances—its whole design along with all its statutes, forms, & laws. WRITE IT DOWN IN THEIR SIGHT, so that they may keep its complete design & all its statutes & may carry them out.

Exodus 17:14,15 The LORD then said to Moses, "WRITE THIS DOWN ON A SCROLL AS A REMINDER AND--recite it to Joshua-- I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek under heaven."

Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot out of My book." Even God has a written book of life with names in it.

Exodus 20:22 And the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.

Exodus 24:3-8 Moses came & told the people all the words of the Lord & all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice & said, “All the words that the Lord HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO.” And Moses WROTE DOWN ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD.

He rose early in the morning & built an altar at the foot of the mountain & 12 pillars, according to the 12 tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings & sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood & put it in basins & half of the blood he threw against the altar.

7Then he took THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT & READ IT in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do & we will be obedient.” 8And Moses took the blood & threw it on the people & said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you IN ACCORDANCE WITH ALL THESE WORDS.”

What was written down & read was what the LORD had spoken.

Exodus 34:27 The LORD also said to Moses, "WRITE DOWN THESE WORDS, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you & with Israel."

Numbers 33:1,2 These are the journeys of the Israelites as they came out of the land of Egypt by divisions under the leadership of Moses and Aaron. At the LORD’s COMMAND, Moses KEPT A WRITTEN RECORD OF THEIR PROGRESS. These are the stages of their march, identified by the different places where they stopped along the way.

Jeremiah 36:2 TAKE A SCROLL & WRITE ON IT ALL THE WORDS I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU concerning Israel, Judah & all the nations, FROM THE DAY I FIRST SPOKE TO YOU during the reign of Josiah until today.

Deut 31:19,22 "Now therefore, WRITE DOWN this song for yourselves & teach it to the children of Israel; put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel. Moses therefore wrote this song the same day & taught it to the children of Israel.

Exodus 4:13,15 "Now go! I will help you AS YOU SPEAK & I WILL TEACH YOU WHAT TO SAY. You are to speak to him & put THE WORDS in his mouth & I, even I, will be with your mouth & with his mouth & I WILL TEACH YOU BOTH WHAT YOU ARE TO DO.

Habakkuk 2:1-3 I will stand at my guard post & station myself on the ramparts. I will watch to see what He will say to me & how I should answer when corrected. Then the LORD answered me: “WRITE DOWN THIS VISION & CLEARLY INSCRIBE IT ON TABLETS, so that a herald may run with it. For the vision awaits AN APPOINTED TIME; it testifies of THE END & DOES NOT LIE. Though it lingers, wait for it, since it will SURELY COME & not delay.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was WRITTEN IN THE PAST WAS WRITTEN for our instruction, so that through endurance & the encouragement of THE SCRIPTURES, we might have hope.

Many more verses could be posted but these are plenty to show the differences between what the Bible, the Holy Scriptures actually say vs someone's conflated opinion with one partially isolated verse taken out of context supposedly says.

We can trust the reliability & accuracy of the Bible as the written Word that God originally spoke & commanded for it to be written down as a testimony & as His revelation to mankind--that salvation is found in no one else but the Lord Jesus Christ, 'the only name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.'

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Which is the Living Word of the Most High: The Redeemer/Christ, or the collection of books known as the bible? Before you accuse someone of blaspheming, you should do well to read what I actually say - especially when you were already wrong in your first accusation. And, you should be sure you two serve the same [god]. I would never intentionally blaspheme the Most High even though you have accused me of doing that.

For example, the Living Word of the Most High (to me) is the Redeemer - not a collection of books. Inspiration for the Word of the Most High? Of course. However, not the Entity itself. If the book is lost forever, I still know the Living Word of the Most High is... Living.

Let me be clear: there is nothing wrong with reading and hearing; the Holy Spirit also leads us (even in apparent error) in order to fully teach us so we don't lack anything. It uses all possible ways of "reaching us".

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Apparent, as in alleged, outwardly, or seemingly. In other words, despite our painful ignorance, and inability to determine what is right and wrong (and actually follow through with it), the Holy Spirit will still lead us [context: into redemption] even if it seems to our ignorant minds that it is the wrong way - He will use apparent error, and reveal the Truth while redeeming us.

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In your first quote, you plainly state the Holy Spirit is the one leading us, even in apparent error. The subject is Holy Spirit, the verb is lead and the object of the verb is 'us.' In other words, the action being done on the object of the verb, 'us' is done by the subject of the verb, 'the Holy Spirit.'). So whether in apparent error or not, it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the action, including leading in apparent error.


That is plain English. In other words, you didn't say the 'apparent' error came from us, being ignorant & not able to know right from wrong. That is your false supposition yet I plainly showed Scripture after Scripture that it is God's spoken word HE SAID TO WRITE DOWN & GIVE TO THE PEOPLE TO KNOW & OBEY. We do know right from wrong because He told us in Scripture what is right & wrong & God fully expects us to know & obey what He told us to do.

But in your explanation in the second paragraph, you try to twist it, showing the 'us' is now the actual subject of the sentence & the 'us' is doing the leading & the leading is apparent error, alleged error, outward error, seemingly error.

Yet when I look up the meaning of 'apparent' in a number of dictionaries, the PRIMARY meaning is this: clearly visible or understood; obvious, capable of being perceived or understood or comprehended. It is only the second meaning that says what you assert as what it means.

So you have been 'selective' in narrowly defining the meaning of the word, to suite your doctrine, when in reality the primary meaning of 'alleged' error is that the Holy Spirit is able to help us clearly perceive, see, understand & comprehend ERROR. And again that is the many verses I shared that showed that the Holy Spirit is not an 'entity' or an 'it' but a Person of the Triune God. He is called the Spirit of truth, who leads spiritually born again Christians into the truth of the written Word, spoken by Jesus. He, the Holy Spirit helps us to clearly perceive ERROR & turn away from it. That is one of the roles of this third Person of the Trinity.

So I didn't misunderstand you at all. You distorted & misrepresented the primary meaning of 'apparent' which perfectly fits the Scripture's truth vs your error.

You haven't once mentioned the Word made flesh is Jesus. You call 'the Living Word of the Most High' an 'entity' not a Person. That title is not in the Scriptures. You misinterpret Heb 4:12.

Primary definition of 'entity': a thing with distinct, separate and independent existence, some thing that exists separately from other things; some thing that exists as a single & complete UNIT. It is normally not used of a person but of things. Several examples of using it in sentences in various dictionaries are:

"Church & empire were fused in a single entity."
"The earth is a living entity."
"The mind exists as a separate entity."
"Good design brings a house & garden together as a single entity."

Calling Jesus an 'entity' is not orthodox historical Christian doctrine. It is a false doctrine & a misrepresentation of Jesus as the second Person of the Trinity. He is not separate from the Father & the Holy Spirit; He is not some 'thing' separate from other things. He is distinct from both, but not separate.

God Most High does not an 'entity' He has a Son, a Person.

One of the titles that the Lord Jesus Christ has is the Word (John 1:1,14) and ONE time He is called 'the Word of God' (Rev 19:13). Jesus made a plain distinction between Himself & the word of God, the gospel message found in the Bible, in the Scriptures, that when preached & understood, can save us by putting our faith in Jesus.

The Apostle Peter, one of the writers of Scripture said this:

I Peter 1:23-25 ...You have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living & abiding word of God; for “All flesh is like grass & all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers & the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

2 Cor 4:2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with the word of God, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.

So when you say that I believe in the same 'god' as you do, that is not true. You apparently believe Jesus is some entity, the Holy Spirit is an 'it' and are independently separate from One another. These are all contrary to the statements of faith on CF & ancient historical Christian doctrine.

You discredit the written Word of God, the Scriptures, which Jesus upheld & obeyed & instructed others to know it, continue in it & obey it. Those who did not would be least in the kingdom of God.

You say the canon is incomplete because you quote OUT OF CONTEXT John 21:25, again showing your ignorance & misunderstanding of the Bible.

John 20:30,31 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. 31But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Deut 29:29 There are some things that the LORD our God has kept secret; but the revealed things belong to us & our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law."

God has chosen not to reveal all things, some things were not meant to be canonical. But what revelation He has spoken & given, that He wants mankind to know & understand, this is what He had specific prophets & apostles write down & preserve as the written Holy Scriptures.

You don't think they are holy or inspired by God. You think men are incapable of writing down what God spoke & are not moved along by the Holy Spirit to accurately state what God actually said. You think it could pass away or be lost & it wouldn't matter. But Jesus said it WON'T pass away. And we are to teach spiritually born disciples to OBEY ALL THAT HE TAUGHT. That is the Scriptures, written down, the very words of God's revelation that He wanted put down. The Law of Moses was written down for the purpose of leading people to Jesus Christ.

There are certain books that aren't canonical for a reason. There are certain things not written down for a reason, because God said so. He only revealed what He wanted written down. So the canon is complete. Jesus by His own statements shows that the OT canon was complete in His teachings in the NT.

He then says He will send 'scribes' to write down specific miracles, signs & teachings, not all of them, but the one's written down would be more than sufficient to bring people to believe that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah that was prophesied AND FULFILLED WRITTEN SCRIPTURE), the unique, only begotten Son of God & that by believing in Him, confessing Him as Lord & believing He rose from the dead, we can be saved & have a relationship & fellowship with He & the Father & the Holy Spirit.

It was taught in the OT & Jesus confirmed the written Word of God in Matt 4 & Luke 4 as VITAL for our spiritual health & growth, just like bread (food) is vitally necessary for our physical health & growth.

Deut 8:2,3 And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you & TEST YOU, to know what was in your heart, whether you would KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS OR NOT.

3So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger & fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, SO THAT HE MIGHT MAKE YOU KNOW that man shall not live by bread ALONE; but man lives by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF THE LORD.

When Jesus was tempted by the devil (he, too is not called an entity in Scripture), He dealt with those temptations each time by: 'IT IS WRITTEN.'

But I have dealt with the vital importance of who the biblical Jesus is, the vital importance of the Holy Bible, the Scriptures in a Christian's life & we can trust in them as being true, accurate & reliable, making the prophecies written down the same. Christians have a long history of the doctrines & faith once for all given to the saints & we, as a body of Christians, have continued to pass that on & preserve it & preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that all might be saved who put their trust in Him. Time for me to move on.

Mathetes66 said:

In your first quote, you plainly state the Holy Spirit is the one leading us, even in apparent error. The subject is Holy Spirit, the verb is lead and the object of the verb is 'us.' In other words, the action being done on the object of the verb, 'us' is done by the subject of the verb, 'the Holy Spirit.'). So whether in apparent error or not, it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the action, including leading in apparent error.


That is plain English. In other words, you didn't say the 'apparent' error came from us, being ignorant & not able to know right from wrong. That is your false supposition yet I plainly showed Scripture after Scripture that it is God's spoken word HE SAID TO WRITE DOWN & GIVE TO THE PEOPLE TO KNOW & OBEY. We do know right from wrong because He told us in Scripture what is right & wrong & God fully expects us to know & obey what He told us to do.

But in your explanation in the second paragraph, you try to twist it, showing the 'us' is now the actual subject of the sentence & the 'us' is doing the leading & the leading is apparent error, alleged error, outward error, seemingly error.

Yet when I look up the meaning of 'apparent' in a number of dictionaries, the PRIMARY meaning is this: clearly visible or understood; obvious, capable of being perceived or understood or comprehended. It is only the second meaning that says what you assert as what it means.

So you have been 'selective' in narrowly defining the meaning of the word, to suite your doctrine, when in reality the primary meaning of 'alleged' error is that the Holy Spirit is able to help us clearly perceive, see, understand & comprehend ERROR. And again that is the many verses I shared that showed that the Holy Spirit is not an 'entity' or an 'it' but a Person of the Triune God. He is called the Spirit of truth, who leads spiritually born again Christians into the truth of the written Word, spoken by Jesus. He, the Holy Spirit helps us to clearly perceive ERROR & turn away from it. That is one of the roles of this third Person of the Trinity.

So I didn't misunderstand you at all. You distorted & misrepresented the primary meaning of 'apparent' which perfectly fits the Scripture's truth vs your error.

You haven't once mentioned the Word made flesh is Jesus. You call 'the Living Word of the Most High' an 'entity' not a Person. That title is not in the Scriptures. You misinterpret Heb 4:12.

Primary definition of 'entity': a thing with distinct, separate and independent existence, some thing that exists separately from other things; some thing that exists as a single & complete UNIT. It is normally not used of a person but of things. Several examples of using it in sentences in various dictionaries are:

"Church & empire were fused in a single entity."
"The earth is a living entity."
"The mind exists as a separate entity."
"Good design brings a house & garden together as a single entity."

Calling Jesus an 'entity' is not orthodox historical Christian doctrine. It is a false doctrine & a misrepresentation of Jesus as the second Person of the Trinity. He is not separate from the Father & the Holy Spirit; He is not some 'thing' separate from other things. He is distinct from both, but not separate.

God Most High does not an 'entity' He has a Son, a Person.

One of the titles that the Lord Jesus Christ has is the Word (John 1:1,14) and ONE time He is called 'the Word of God' (Rev 19:13). Jesus made a plain distinction between Himself & the word of God, the gospel message found in the Bible, in the Scriptures, that when preached & understood, can save us by putting our faith in Jesus.

The Apostle Peter, one of the writers of Scripture said this:

I Peter 1:23-25 ...You have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living & abiding word of God; for “All flesh is like grass & all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers & the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

2 Cor 4:2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with the word of God, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.

So when you say that I believe in the same 'god' as you do, that is not true. You apparently believe Jesus is some entity, the Holy Spirit is an 'it' and are independently separate from One another. These are all contrary to the statements of faith on CF & ancient historical Christian doctrine.

You discredit the written Word of God, the Scriptures, which Jesus upheld & obeyed & instructed others to know it, continue in it & obey it. Those who did not would be least in the kingdom of God.

You say the canon is incomplete because you quote OUT OF CONTEXT John 21:25, again showing your ignorance & misunderstanding of the Bible.

John 20:30,31 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. 31But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Deut 29:29 There are some things that the LORD our God has kept secret; but the revealed things belong to us & our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law."

God has chosen not to reveal all things, some things were not meant to be canonical. But what revelation He has spoken & given, that He wants mankind to know & understand, this is what He had specific prophets & apostles write down & preserve as the written Holy Scriptures.

You don't think they are holy or inspired by God. You think men are incapable of writing down what God spoke & are not moved along by the Holy Spirit to accurately state what God actually said. You think it could pass away or be lost & it wouldn't matter. But Jesus said it WON'T pass away. And we are to teach spiritually born disciples to OBEY ALL THAT HE TAUGHT. That is the Scriptures, written down, the very words of God's revelation that He wanted put down. The Law of Moses was written down for the purpose of leading people to Jesus Christ.

There are certain books that aren't canonical for a reason. There are certain things not written down for a reason, because God said so. He only revealed what He wanted written down. So the canon is complete. Jesus by His own statements shows that the OT canon was complete in His teachings in the NT.

He then says He will send 'scribes' to write down specific miracles, signs & teachings, not all of them, but the one's written down would be more than sufficient to bring people to believe that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah that was prophesied AND FULFILLED WRITTEN SCRIPTURE), the unique, only begotten Son of God & that by believing in Him, confessing Him as Lord & believing He rose from the dead, we can be saved & have a relationship & fellowship with He & the Father & the Holy Spirit.

It was taught in the OT & Jesus confirmed the written Word of God in Matt 4 & Luke 4 as VITAL for our spiritual health & growth, just like bread (food) is vitally necessary for our physical health & growth.

Deut 8:2,3 And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you & TEST YOU, to know what was in your heart, whether you would KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS OR NOT.

3So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger & fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, SO THAT HE MIGHT MAKE YOU KNOW that man shall not live by bread ALONE; but man lives by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF THE LORD.

When Jesus was tempted by the devil (he, too is not called an entity in Scripture), He dealt with those temptations each time by: 'IT IS WRITTEN.'

But I have dealt with the vital importance of who the biblical Jesus is, the vital importance of the Holy Bible, the Scriptures in a Christian's life & we can trust in them as being true, accurate & reliable, making the prophecies written down the same. Christians have a long history of the doctrines & faith once for all given to the saints & we, as a body of Christians, have continued to pass that on & preserve it & preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that all might be saved who put their trust in Him. Time for me to move on.

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You shouldn't have tried in the first place. You were wrong in your first accusation of me, you continue to project, and now that you realize you overreacted you are trying to telegraph remnants of your initial argument to tangential issues that may or may not be germane to the original post.

You are hearing "the bible is bad and wrong in your emotions because I have said the Living Word of the Most High (to me) is the Redeemer - not a collection of books... which is the Truth.

Do you actually believe the Word of the Most High is a LIVING Entity capable of interacting with all of us in a real way? If so, why do you put so much focus in a BOOK compiled by men? Your first LOVE should be the The Most High, and your first ATTENTION should be to adhere to and hear His Living Word. Instead you tell me to extol a book of text written by men when there is a LIVING WORD? And you tell me I am blasphemous by choosing the LIVING WORD first?

The same confusion that has evolved the aforementioned mentality is the same one that calls another Christian a heretic for trying to follow and promoting the obedience of law of the Most High. What god do you (all) worship: Nabu, Thoth, Nisaba, Hermes... or do you know?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

This sentence has provoked this reply . I respect your reference to "The Most High" and "The Living Word". But in this sentence you say "you(all)" and suggest that we ALL may be worshiping gods that I in particular know nothing about . The insinuation that I may be worshiping these and not know is very offensive to me. My Heavenly Father IS the Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is my God in whom I trust. He is the One who shed His precious blood as a pure sacrifice to purchase my redemption.I call His name Lord Jesus. I learned of Him from the Bible and the scriptures written therein.

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Well, the "all" was for anyone that it applied to - whomever felt convicted by it.

1. Why is it appropriate to tell someone that they are a heretic for professing that the Word of the Most High is a Living Entity, and that He should be our first priority and resource for the Word of the Most High? Even the Redeemer/Word of the Most High Himself has told us that many people will believe they have been worshiping Him and casting out demons in His name, but He never knew them.

2. Why is it appropriate to tell someone they are a heretic for professing that the bible is a canonical text put together by men with the intention of representing the inspired word of the Most High - but is still a text? Especially given the context of 1., where is the lie? Is the bible not a canonical text? Are there not denomination that have their own canon that differs in quality from the Western know canon?


So far, I have been called a heretic for stating things that are true, and should be true for Christians according to the base dogma, which is par for the course on this forum, because I have been called a heretic for suggesting we should follow all of the law of the Most High (even if we fail). So, I am being serious when I ask, "which god do you (all) follow?" So far, it isn't the One I know, because the One I know has His Image as His Word, and His Word is Living, and His Living Word actively counsels His people. The One I know demands perfection to His Law. The One I know has His Image speak so much Truth that it cannot be contained in any text man can make - perhaps in the entire world (John 21:25). Clearly, by what I have seen on these forums with other threads, not everyone believes in this One. So, the question is more than valid for the simple reason that I am asking.

At least I didn't call you a heretic - especially after misunderstanding and misrepresenting everything you have said. It has come to the point where CLEARLY I am not a Christian as it were, despite believing in the Christ/Redeemer, and despite believing there is only One above all, and that the Redeemer is His image. So, what god do you (all) follow?

Thoth is the god of wisdom, writing and knowledge (for example).

Nabu is the Babylonian god of wisdom, prophecy and scribes.


People, to this day, still worship Cernunnos, Mammon, Baal, Samael, etc. - and believe they are following Christ/The Word of the Most High. So, that is why I told the person I was responding to s/he had better be sure the person they are scorning follows the same god as s/he does, and I would go further to say everyone had better be sure they are worshiping the god they believe they are worshiping - especially before we start calling people heretics for saying that the Living Entity known as the Word of the Most High is the ultimate source for the Word of the Most High.

I said exactly what I meant, but it wasn't my intention to offend. Having said all of that, I still want to know what god you (all) follow.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

I think I have adequately described my faith in my Heavenly Father , and I (personally) never called you a heretic.It is against forum rules to say that a person who says s/he is a Christian is not a Christian. So, be advised and be careful. And that is to ALL it applies to.

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I don't ever have to worry about that forum rule, because I don't actually accuse people of being heretics. I know you didn't - our exchange has been more or less Socratic. However, there are at least a score of people who do it regularly with little to no action against them. But, by the rules of these forums, I cant call them out. And, I won't behave like some of them, and not-so-subtlely give hints about their identity. Their words speak for themselves, just like I expect mine to.

See, you may not see these things, but before this thread people on these forums have walked the forums rule lines of calling someone a heretic or liar for preaching obedience to the entire Law of the Most High, and for insinuating that the Living Word of the Most High (an Entity) trumps a canonical text. I am not fighting about that anymore; everyone is responsible for their spiritual trajectory. The quickest way to get a dismissal from me, personally, is to suggest it is heresy to follow the Law of the Most High, and to trust the Living Entity known as the Word of the Most High over all created things. That is a foundation of faith I am not willing to compromise, and if that makes me non-Christian then I will kindly ask the MODS to help me to change my faith icon status back to "seeker", or "other world religion". Too many allegedly controversial Christians with no denominational or ecumenical alignment have been pushed to identify themselves as "other" despite knowing the Most High, and trusting solely in His Image/The Christ/The Redeemer/The Living Word of the Most High - on these forums.

I purposefully write the length of responses I do so that people won't gloss over it and respond from a knee-jerk point of view - like on this thread. Everything I say I mean, which is why I find it particularly annoying to have to repeat everything I have said based on an erroneous accusation - and I still get accused. What people are hearing me say is, "Reject and throw away the bible canon because it is wrong, and just listen to the voice in your head." Another fault of some on these forums is that they do not actually read (in context) what someone says - and if they are corrected, they again try to reconstitute the previous argument in some other way. These are games I am not willing to play.

As I said, I meant exactly what I said, and my question about who follows what god is an actual question - I cannot tell what "Christian" means to people anymore, because of the dogmatic volatility and aversion to following rules.

"You shouldn't have tried in the first place. You were wrong in your first accusation of me, you continue to project, and now that you realize you overreacted you are trying to telegraph remnants of your initial argument to tangential issues that may or may not be germane to the original post. You are hearing "the bible is bad and wrong in your emotions."

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You shouldn't...you were wrong...you continue to project...you realize you overreacted...You are hearing 'the bible is bad'...and wrong in your emotions.

It never ceases to amaze me how someone who has no clue what goes on inside me, TELLS ME what I am doing, thinking & feeling, putting themselves in the place of God & pronouncing false accusations & judgment, as if you can know my thoughts & emotions, projecting your own imaginations onto me, as if that is what I am doing, which I am not.

My arguments have been consistent. You have not addressed my consistent points that you do not teach orthodox, ancient Christian doctrines that Christians from the very first century taught. You consistently do not teach what Christians have taught for thousands of years. You discredit the Bible in post after post. You teach contrary to the Triune God and the Creeds of Christianity. Others have posted similar things, including the OP.

There comes a point where one stops, who has sought to explain the truths of the Holy Scriptures, who the biblical Lord Jesus Christ is in the midst of heterodox teachings & that is what the Lord said for us to do: preach the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Lord Himself & verified by the writings of the prophets & the apostles.

May the Lord open your mind to understand the Scriptures & grant you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. May He be merciful to you & yours.

Why do you put so much focus in a BOOK compiled by men?

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I do because the biblical Lord Jesus Christ did.

I do because in book after book of the Bible God plainly states that this is His very breathed out words, which He commanded to be written down, read, memorized, studied & lived out in loving obedience to Him.

I do because the apostles did.

I do because all the apostolic churches since the beginning of Christianity did & still do.

The same CONFUSION that has evolved the aforementioned mentality is the same one that calls another Christian a heretic for trying to follow & promote the obedience of law of the Most High.

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We Christians are very clear on what we believe & have articulated those beliefs for thousands of years. There is no confusion there. Jesus Christ is God, the second Person of the Trinity. 'He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified & died according to the Scriptures & was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures & is seated at the right hand of the Father & He will come again to judge the living & the dead.'

But I have a question: What is this mysterious 'obedience to the law of the Most High?' Can you explain & plainly define what this 'law' is specifically & from where or what source did it come? Where is it written down that we may examine this law if we are supposedly to know & follow it? Thank you.

And i agree with the OP. When you label 'you (all)', as I suppose meaning those posting in this Christian forum as Christians & in this thread--and then accuse us of worshiping false idols & gods of men's imaginations & supposedly not even knowing what we even believe in--it is no surprise to us, but it is offensive. You place yourself OUTSIDE of the Christian community in such accusations.

If you are confused what biblical Christians believe, simply go to these websites & see the basic Creeds of the Christian faith state in summary. And I didn't accuse you of being a heretic; only that some of what you are teaching here is heterodox & goes directly contrary to what biblical Christians believe.

Nicene Creed


Athanasian Creed

I John 2:18ff Children, it is the last hour & as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain they all are not of us.

24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

I Peter 3:14,15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am WRITING these things to you, so that, if I delay, you may know HOW one ought to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, a pillar & stable support (bulwark) of the truth.

16Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, CONTINUE in the things you have learned & firmly believed, since you KNOW FROM WHOM you have learned them.

From INFANCY you have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which ARE ABLE TO MAKE YOU WISE FOR SALVATION THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS.

16All Scripture is God-breathed & profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction & for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete (perfected), fully equipped for every good work.

Mathetes66 said:

You shouldn't...you were wrong...you continue to project...you realize you overreacted...You are hearing 'the bible is bad'...and wrong in your emotions.

It never ceases to amaze me how someone who has no clue what goes on inside me, TELLS ME what I am doing, thinking & feeling, putting themselves in the place of God & pronouncing false accusations & judgment, as if you can know my thoughts & emotions, projecting your own imaginations onto me, as if that is what I am doing, which I am not.

My arguments have been consistent. You have not addressed my consistent points that you do not teach orthodox, ancient Christian doctrines that Christians from the very first century taught. You consistently do not teach what Christians have taught for thousands of years. You discredit the Bible in post after post. You teach contrary to the Triune God and the Creeds of Christianity. Others have posted similar things, including the OP.

There comes a point where one stops, who has sought to explain the truths of the Holy Scriptures, who the biblical Lord Jesus Christ is in the midst of heterodox teachings & that is what the Lord said for us to do: preach the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Lord Himself & verified by the writings of the prophets & the apostles.

May the Lord open your mind to understand the Scriptures & grant you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. May He be merciful to you & yours.



I do because the biblical Lord Jesus Christ did.

I do because in book after book of the Bible God plainly states that this is His very breathed out words, which He commanded to be written down, read, memorized, studied & lived out in loving obedience to Him.

I do because the apostles did.

I do because all the apostolic churches since the beginning of Christianity did & still do.



We Christians are very clear on what we believe & have articulated those beliefs for thousands of years. There is no confusion there. Jesus Christ is God, the second Person of the Trinity. 'He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified & died according to the Scriptures & was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures & is seated at the right hand of the Father & He will come again to judge the living & the dead.'

But I have a question: What is this mysterious 'obedience of law of the Most High?' Can you explain & plainly define what this 'law' is specifically & from where or what source did it come? Where is it written down that we may examine this law if we are supposedly to know & follow it? Thank you.

And i agree with the OP. When you label 'you (all)', as I suppose meaning those posting in this Christian forum as Christians & in this thread--and then accuse us of worshiping false idols & gods of men's imaginations & supposedly not even knowing what we even believe in--it is no surprise to us, but it is offensive. You place yourself OUTSIDE of the Christian community in such accusations.

I John 2:18ff Children, it is the last hour & as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain they all are not of us.

24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

I Peter 3:14,15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am WRITING these things to you, so that, if I delay, you may know HOW one ought to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, a pillar & stable support (bulwark) of the truth.

16Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, CONTINUE in the things you have learned & firmly believed, since you KNOW FROM WHOM you have learned them.

From INFANCY you have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which ARE ABLE TO MAKE YOU WISE FOR SALVATION THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS.

16All Scripture is God-breathed & profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction & for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete (perfected), fully equipped for every good work.

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I am reacting to someone calling me a heretic, and claiming that I contradict the Word of God because of a improper comprehension or reading of text. Moreover, I am utterly perturbed that I would have to explain myself to an accuser more than twice - and this person still cannot understand what is being said. Since you have so much to say about me, what say you?

1. What god do you worship?

2. Do you believe the Entity known as Son of Man/The Word of the Most High/Christ is a Living Entity?

3. Do you believe the Entity known as the Son of Man/The Word of the Most High/Image of the Most High/Christ is the authority on the Word of God?

4. Do you think the Entity known as the Son of Man/The Word of the Most High/Image of the Most High/Christ would be able to minister to someone isolated from people and a bible canon, or someone who is illiterate?

5. Who do you think spoke to the prophets if NO ONE has seen the Father? Who, therefore, has the authority to speak on behalf of the Most High in all things?

Do you believe Son of Man/The Word of the Most High/Image of the Most High/Christ can instruct a man on the Truth better than any [canonical] text that could be put out by man or spirit?

These questions will help me to understand what god you (think you) worship, and it will especially give me the context of why anyone who believes in the Living Word of the Most High would choose to affirm, as the main resource for the Truth, a canonical text instead of the actual Source of the Word of the Most High. I couldn't figure it out in my greener spiritual history, but I think I am beginning to understand why the canonical text is considered above the Christ to many (some preachers go so far into idolatry of a book that they tell their flock to sleep on their bible, or wear it on them as if the book is protection).


Or, you can continue your way, and I will ignore you. As I said, I don't play these games, because it will end with someone being warned, or the thread being closed. But, if you choose not to answer any of those questions, do not keep up this exchange between us: I am a heretic to you, and I won't dispute it as long as you don't reply/respond to me. But, every time you try to accuse me of being heretic-tangent, I will continue to show how erroneous your judgment and accusations are - perhaps even with your own dogma and logic.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

I think it is time to close this thread so people can cool off.

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We are conversing, no? Who is heated? And, there are other people that need answers besides our egos. These are serious questions that could actually produce real profit for lurkers and people looking for answers.

The box of accusations shouldn't have been opened if it was going to be closed right away.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

If the Bible is not inerrant,which parts are not true? Can we trust the end time prophecies?

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The resurrection accounts differ from one another. Therefore the resurrection accounts cannot have been written by the Holy Spirit.

Unless of course you can reconcile the resurrection accounts.