True saving faith is proven by your repentance

renniks

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I have yet to hear one Belief Alone Proponent tell me that they keep God's laws and that they support the idea that we must keep them. They are all for the idea that we cannot keep them. They obviously believe they are saved, so this means that they are saved despite their disobedience to God.
So, you alone are perfect. Ok, then.
 
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That would be fruit we produce through the Spirit. Not to obtain salvation, but to glorify God. Yes, it's obedience. Unless it's done for personal gain and glory. Then, it would be the opposite of obedience. If you have to obtain your own salvation, what did Christ die for? I haven't gotten an answer to this question.

Unless you are a Calvinist or Universalist, you think you obtain salvation by doing something, too.
You believe you had to accept Jesus and or believe in Him as your Savior in order to have salvation. In fact, to believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So you obeyed this command in order to obtain salvation that the Lord did for us on the cross. But the requirements of faith do not stop there to have a continual access to God's grace. The reason or purpose Christ died for us is given to us in Ephesians 5:25-27. It says this:

"...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

So Christ gave Himself for the church so as to cleanse us (or sanctify us) with the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. Scripture) so that Christ might present to Himself a church (us) that is without spot, wrinkle, and that it (we) should be holy, and without blemish.

All Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
 
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So, you alone are perfect. Ok, then.

I never said I was perfect. But there is a bare minimum level requirement for living holy that we must meet according to the New Testament. Some commands lead to spiritual death, and others do not. We should strive to obey all of God's commands, but we know that not all of His commands are attached with warnings of spiritual death, condemnation, or hellfire.
 
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renniks

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3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
Okay, I'm on my phone, which makes it very unwieldy, but I'll try to pick up three verses.

This is about false teachers. By thier false teaching and false works they reveal themselves. Doesn't really have a lot to do with the topic, but I would say that even if they were doing some good work, it has no saving power.
 
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Okay, I'm on my phone, which makes it very unwieldy, but I'll try to pick up three verses.

This is about false teachers. By thier false teaching and false works they reveal themselves. Doesn't really have a lot to do with the topic, but I would say that even if they were doing some good work, it has no saving power.

No. Titus 1:16 not only refers to their sinful deeds, but it refers to how they are reprobate of good works, too.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).
 
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Okay, I'm on my phone, which makes it very unwieldy, but I'll try to pick up three verses.

This is about false teachers. By thier false teaching and false works they reveal themselves. Doesn't really have a lot to do with the topic, but I would say that even if they were doing some good work, it has no saving power.

Here it is in another translation:

"Such people claim to know God, but their actions prove they really don't. They are disgusting. They won't obey God, and they are too worthless to do anything good." (Titus 1:16) (CSB).
 
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Okay, I'm on my phone, which makes it very unwieldy, but I'll try to pick up three verses.

This is about false teachers. By thier false teaching and false works they reveal themselves. Doesn't really have a lot to do with the topic, but I would say that even if they were doing some good work, it has no saving power.

Here is another translation:

"They profess to know God; but in their actions they disown Him, and are detestable and disobedient men, and for any good work are utterly useless." (Titus 1:16) (Weymouth New Testament).
 
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renniks

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4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
Again, about people teaching wrong things about how to conduct your self. Not salvation issues. Obviously, Paul had some specific people in mind when he wrote this. Again, people who were not godly, in this case they were seeking riches instead of God's kingdom. Not sure how this relates? We aren't told whether they are saved or not.
 
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Again, about people teaching wrong things about how to conduct your self. Not salvation issues. Obviously, Paul had some specific people in mind when he wrote this. Again, people who were not godly, in this case they were seeking riches instead of God's kingdom. Not sure how this relates? We aren't told whether they are saved or not.

Yes, it is a salvation issue. Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are PROUD and they know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the PROUD and He gives grace to the humble.
 
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magiani

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Another reason people do it, is to paint themselves ans more righteous or better than others, and as righteous as God, which I think is very wrong and very evil also...

God Bless!

Thanks for the feedback. I am struggling with this indeed.
 
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Thanks for the feedback. I am struggling with this indeed.

I do not want to think of myself as more righteous than others as this poster may claim. Believers who strive to live a holy life after they are saved by God's grace are doing so because that is what they believe the Bible says. I am nothing. Christ is everything. The only good I can do is by the power of Christ working in me. All boasting, praise, glory, and honor goes to Jesus and not to myself. This is not about me, but it is about what the Scriptures say. Jesus had a lot of instruction on righteous living and how certain sins can destroy our souls. But people do not like to hear that part of Jesus so they seek to ignore these words by him or change them to fit their own personal way of life.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Great! Yes, both!

But now as we walk in the Spirit, we must focus, not on imputed righteousness only as you've been seeming to post, but Christ's Spirit in us. Go there! Stay there! Otherwise, you are not teaching growth in the Spirit, and how our righteousness can be apart from the law. Teach the Spirit!

There are others who only teach imputed righteousness, but that is all they believe unlike you, praise God, and that is when they make OSAS a heresy. I don't want you to be seen as teaching the same thing. I like you too much, and why I spend so much time with you.

I'm certainly not against assurance, but as John taught in 1 John 3:18-24. It is just when they make the grace of God into licentiousness Jude 1:4 that I put my foot down, and cry NO!!!. Are you? (I don't see all your posts so don't know, and hardly read your discourse with others, just when I get an alert).


But the battle is not over. We still fall short in many ways.

It is not the same with all Christians. There are babes in Christ, that actually fall short of salvation, itself, as we see in 1 Corinthians. They were reprimanded for still being carnal. They were still committing willful sins. According to Paul's total writings, they were, at least, grieving the Spirit, and sometimes even quenching the Spirit. Ren, a true Christian walks in the Spirit and strives to stay there. That is what we need to teach. Encourage each other to resist temptation. Christ's Spirit gives us all the power we need to do so.


We are not glorified.

I assume you are not just talking about our physical body that must take on immortality. Many teach we will always sin, and need to overcome sin, little by little, called sanctification. But that is not recognizing the power of Jesus who was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin.

Do you believe still (as commonly taught) that the 'process' we go through in our life as a Christian is called sanctification. I did too. But when I saw in Hebrews 10:26-31 that the Christian Paul was speaking to that was committing willful sin, was already sanctified, I had to ask God, "what is the process called if we are already sanctified when we were justified. He spoke and said "Glorification." When our mind is no longer on sin because it is no longer in our nature, but on becoming like Christ, that is when we step into the process to actually be saved. Study 2 Peter 1
 
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renniks

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Unless you are a Calvinist or Universalist, you think you obtain salvation by doing something, too.
You believe you had to accept Jesus and or believe in Him as your Savior in order to have salvation. In fact, to believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So you obeyed this command in order to obtain salvation that the Lord did for us on the cross.
Well, I see the problem, then. Because I view my faith as the opposite of "doing something". What we "do" is humble ourselves, that is, cease fighting against God. From there, belief and all the rest will take place. Yes, we make a choice, but it's not a work. And the Calvinists confuse this all to hell. Literally, I believe, sending people to hell because they teach faith is a work, which is total nonsense. It's the opposite of a work. And following that logic, works can never, ever save anyone. Only dependence on God for every single aspect of the spiritual walk saves.
 
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aiki

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It is not the same with all Christians. There are babes in Christ, that actually fall short of salvation, itself, as we see in 1 Corinthians.

This is a flat-out misrepresentation of the text. Paul calls the carnal, fleshly, Corinthians babes IN CHRIST. (1 Corinthians 3:1) And then, after criticizing them for being carnal, goes on to confirm that they are God's "building" and "field" (1 Corinthians 3:9), His "temple" (1 Corinthians 3:17) and belong to Christ (1 Corinthians 3:23). It is a completely dishonest representation of the text to say that the believers to whom Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians "actually fall short of salvation." Paul didn't think that at all.

But this fact puts a serious crimp in your notion that any sin in a believer is a testament to the fact that they aren't saved. This is just patently false, both in the text of Scripture and in the experience of every believer.

When our mind is no longer on sin because it is no longer in our nature, but on becoming like Christ, that is when we step into the process to actually be saved. Study 2 Peter 1

Ugh. Works salvation. It's all up to you, eh, to have the right focus, the right mind, so that you can step into the process of salvation? How ironic that in the same breath you claim to have left Self behind, you put it at the center of your salvation. This is the terrible deception in what you believe. You aren't really focused on the Spirit, but on your efforts to live like he's in control of you.
 
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renniks

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No. Titus 1:16 not only refers to their sinful deeds, but it refers to how they are reprobate of good works, too.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).
Well yeah. Their fruit (or lack of fruit) reveals thier lack of faith.
A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bad fruit.
But fruit doesn't bring salvation. Jesus' atonement for our sin is salvations only source.
 
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Well, I see the problem, then. Because I view my faith as the opposite of "doing something". What we "do" is humble ourselves, that is, cease fighting against God. From there, belief and all the rest will take place. Yes, we make a choice, but it's not a work. And the Calvinists confuse this all to hell. Literally, I believe, sending people to hell because they teach faith is a work, which is total nonsense. It's the opposite of a work. And following that logic, works can never, ever save anyone. Only dependence on God for every single aspect of the spiritual walk saves.

I don't believe faith is a work like the Calvinists believe but I believe both faith and works are something that we must do or take action upon. To trust somebody or to believe something requires a mental action or choice on our part. Having faith is not like doing a physical work, but it is an action on some small level nonetheless. For there was a decision we had to make. This decision took some form of action on our part. We had to set forth our mind to believe. Surrender is also an action. Granted, this is not on the same level of action like doing good works, but it is an action on some level nonetheless. After all, to believe in Jesus is a command (1 John 3:23), and there is a thing called, "the Law of Faith." (Romans 3:27).

But is faith a work? Again, no. So what did Jesus mean in John 6:29?

Let's take a look at John 6 to see.

The crowd said unto Jesus:

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
(John 6:28).​

Jesus answered and said unto them:

"This is the work of God,
that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

(John 6:29).​

I believe that when Jesus said that "the work of God is to believe on Him (Jesus) in whom He (that Father) sent," Christ is not referring to a belief alone in Him as His Savior without any works, but He is referring to how trusting in everything He told us to do (like His commandments) will lead to doing good works or the work of God. Also, a true faith in Jesus will bring forth genuine fruit of God. Remember the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus' feet? She showed love in action or good deeds (the work of God) naturally in the fact that she was forgiven of her sins and trusted in Jesus as her Savior. So yes. Faith is not a work. But faith is something we do have to take action upon in some way. For people can take the mental action of refusing to believe in Jesus as their Savior. The same is true if they take the mental action to believe in Jesus as their Savior.
 
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renniks

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Here is another translation:

"They profess to know God; but in their actions they disown Him, and are detestable and disobedient men, and for any good work are utterly useless." (Titus 1:16) (Weymouth New Testament).
Yeah, both Jesus and Paul say similar things about fruit revealing a person's spiritual state. So?
 
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Well yeah. Their fruit (or lack of fruit) reveals thier lack of faith.
A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bad fruit.
But fruit doesn't bring salvation. Jesus' atonement for our sin is salvations only source.

While a believer does receive a new heart with new desires, that does not mean they no longer have free will and that they do good works automatically. They still have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). It's not automatic.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Anyways, you are still ignoring what Titus 1:16 plainly says. They denied God by being unto every good work reprobate or fruitless. You are saying that works do not save, but Titus 1:16 is saying that a person can deny God by being reprobate unto having good works. No good works, and their faith is dead (James 2:17). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
 
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Yeah, both Jesus and Paul say similar things about fruit revealing a person's spiritual state. So?

A person cannot deny God and be saved. If a person is reprobate unto every good work, that means they are denying God.
 
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