THE LAST DAYS!

keras · Jan 4, 2020

Douggg said:
Keras, Ezekiel 38-39 is showing that your are drawing the wrong conclusions.

The conclusion that is got by reading Ezekiel 38 and 39, is that the Lord will gather the lost tribes of the House of Israel into all of the holy Land and bless them. All the faithful Christians, descendants by faith of the Patriarchs. Galatians 3:26-29
Joel 2:18-29 tells us all about it.
A remnant of the House of Judah will join them. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Nige55 · Jan 13, 2020

claninja said:
James didn't say his coming was far off or thousands of years away. He said it was near.

I don't think we can get past the difference in perspective. In the big scheme of things, that timing is near.

Nige55 · Jan 13, 2020

claninja said:
If Jesus will come back in the same way as went into heaven, did every eye see him go into heaven? No, there were only roughly 500 witnesses. Unless, every single person is on the mount of olives at the 2nd coming, then not everyone will see physically with their eyes at the 2nd coming, if Jesus comes in the same exact way as he went into heaven.

In fact, how did Jesus go INTO heaven? hidden out of sight in a cloud.

I'm not sure why you're contradicting yourself, In what I've quoted above you first say that there were 500 witnesses, and then directly after say he was hidden out of sight.

Which is it ?

And which (let's say 500) people on earth, in the same place at the same time claim to have seen him return ? I did ask that question before, but I think it's worth asking again.

claninja · Jan 14, 2020

Nige55 said:
I don't think we can get past the difference in perspective. In the big scheme of things, that timing is near.

The time was near because Jesus said it would be.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Nige55 said:
I'm not sure why you're contradicting yourself, In what I've quoted above you first say that there were 500 witnesses, and then directly after say he was hidden out of sight.

I'm not sure what is "contradicting". What exactly is contradicting about witnesses seeing Jesus lifted up and then hidden in a cloud?

As scripture states, the witness saw Jesus taken up and then a cloud hid Him from their sight.

Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

Nige55 said:
Which is it ?

Which is what? The witnesses saw Jesus lifted up and taken out of sight in a cloud (acts 1:9).

Nige55 said:
And which (let's say 500) people on earth, in the same place at the same time claim to have seen him return ? I did ask that question before, but I think it's worth asking again.

I am unaware of any 1st century writings of witnesses that saw Jesus hidden within the clouds at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. I But we do have the words of God Himself.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Nige55 · Jan 14, 2020

claninja said:
The time was near because Jesus said it would be.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

I'm not sure what is "contradicting". What exactly is contradicting about witnesses seeing Jesus lifted up and then hidden in a cloud?

As scripture states, the witness saw Jesus taken up and then a cloud hid Him from their sight.

Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

Which is what? The witnesses saw Jesus lifted up and taken out of sight in a cloud (acts 1:9).

I am unaware of any 1st century writings of witnesses that saw Jesus hidden within the clouds at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. I But we do have the words of God Himself.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Some quite nice dodging there, but I'll quote you back to yourself - "If Jesus will come back in the same way as went into heaven, did every eye see him go into heaven? No, there were only roughly 500 witnesses".
You've said that 500 witnesses saw him go INTO heaven.

I will come back to the question that seems to be dodged however - which 500 witnesses have recorded seeing Jesus return by being lifted down (the reverse of, i.e. the same way he was 'taken up' in Acts1:9) ?? As we have a biblical record of the witnesses (including their number) at Jesus ascension, where is the record of his return ?
I think we all know that there is no such record of Jesus return.

Regarding the 'near' issue, you're really not reading my posts, but hey ho.

claninja · Jan 14, 2020

Nige55 said:
Some quite nice dodging there, but I'll quote you back to yourself - "If Jesus will come back in the same way as went into heaven, did every eye see him go into heaven? No, there were only roughly 500 witnesses".
You've said that 500 witnesses saw him go INTO heaven.

1.) I remembered a verse incorrectly, so I apologize. 500 witnesses did not see Jesus go into heaven. 500 witnesses saw Jesus post the resurrection, not necessarily at the ascension

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

Here is who is recorded as seeing Jesus taken up and hidden in a cloud at his ascension:

Acts 1:12-13 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away.c When they arrived, they went to the upper room where they were staying: Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James

2.) you left out part of my quote, which from my perspective, explained that no one saw Jesus actually go into heaven, only that they saw him taken up and was then hid by a cloud. So I apologize if my statement led you to believe that I stated witnesses actually saw Jesus go INTO heaven.

"If Jesus will come back in the same way as went into heaven, did every eye see him go into heaven? No, there were only roughly 500 witnesses. Unless, every single person is on the mount of olives at the 2nd coming, then not everyone will see physically with their eyes at the 2nd coming, if Jesus comes in the same exact way as he went into heaven.

In fact, how did Jesus go INTO heaven? hidden out of sight in a cloud."

Nige55 said:
I will come back to the question that seems to be dodged however - which 500 witnesses have recorded seeing Jesus return by being lifted down (the reverse of, i.e. the same way he was 'taken up' in Acts1:9) ?? As we have a biblical record of the witnesses (including their number) at Jesus ascension, where is the record of his return ?

The NT is completed so I cannot provide you any Holy, inspired, documents outside of the NT that give proof to the coming of the son of man in Judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad. I can only use scripture

Matthew 23:34 Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Again there were only 11 recorded witnesses to the ascension of Jesus, so my apologies for remembering a verse incorrectly. Based on that, I cannot give you the writings of 500 witnesses.

Acts 1:12-13 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away.c When they arrived, they went to the upper room where they were staying: Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James

From the 11 witnesses, here are 3 that have inspired NT scripture:

Peter believed the end was at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

John believed it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is at hand.

James states the Lord's coming was near, and even goes on to say that the Judge "is standing" at the door. The greek word "is standing" is present tense. The only way James could make that statement, which corresponds very nicely to the olivet discourse, is if the events of the olivet discourse were happening.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 23:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

Thus showing Jesus' words to be true.
Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Nige55 said:
Regarding the 'near' issue, you're really not reading my posts, but hey ho.

I don't see where you addressed it in post #82. you just stated we have different perspectives.

Can you explain why Daniel is told to seal up a vision that is for many days from now, while John is told not to seal up the vision because the time is at hand?

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is at hand.

David Kent · Jan 14, 2020

claninja said:
Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is at hand.

It began to be fulfilled at that time and has continued to be fulfilled today.

Nige55 · Jan 15, 2020

claninja said:
1.) I remembered a verse incorrectly, so I apologize. 500 witnesses did not see Jesus go into heaven. 500 witnesses saw Jesus post the resurrection, not necessarily at the ascension

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

Here is who is recorded as seeing Jesus taken up and hidden in a cloud at his ascension:

Acts 1:12-13 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away.c When they arrived, they went to the upper room where they were staying: Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James

2.) you left out part of my quote, which from my perspective, explained that no one saw Jesus actually go into heaven, only that they saw him taken up and was then hid by a cloud. So I apologize if my statement led you to believe that I stated witnesses actually saw Jesus go INTO heaven.

"If Jesus will come back in the same way as went into heaven, did every eye see him go into heaven? No, there were only roughly 500 witnesses. Unless, every single person is on the mount of olives at the 2nd coming, then not everyone will see physically with their eyes at the 2nd coming, if Jesus comes in the same exact way as he went into heaven.

In fact, how did Jesus go INTO heaven? hidden out of sight in a cloud."

The NT is completed so I cannot provide you any Holy, inspired, documents outside of the NT that give proof to the coming of the son of man in Judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad. I can only use scripture

Matthew 23:34 Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Again there were only 11 recorded witnesses to the ascension of Jesus, so my apologies for remembering a verse incorrectly. Based on that, I cannot give you the writings of 500 witnesses.

Acts 1:12-13 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away.c When they arrived, they went to the upper room where they were staying: Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James

From the 11 witnesses, here are 3 that have inspired NT scripture:

Peter believed the end was at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

John believed it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is at hand.

James states the Lord's coming was near, and even goes on to say that the Judge "is standing" at the door. The greek word "is standing" is present tense. The only way James could make that statement, which corresponds very nicely to the olivet discourse, is if the events of the olivet discourse were happening.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 23:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

Thus showing Jesus' words to be true.
Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

I don't see where you addressed it in post #82. you just stated we have different perspectives.

Can you explain why Daniel is told to seal up a vision that is for many days from now, while John is told not to seal up the vision because the time is at hand?

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is at hand.

Ok, so 11 witnesses saw Jesus ascend. Do we have any witness on record that saw him descend ?
The numbers aren't that important, 500, or 11. We have biblical records of witnesses who saw him ascend.
How can anyone be expected to accept that he has returned without any witnesses, when scripture itself states the 11 that you listed ?
It's like assuming a prophecy has come to pass simply because it was prophesied.
There seems to be a huge dependency on the terms 'near' and 'at hand'. These are both very unspecific words, and can vary wildly in perspective (hence my use of a child asking 'are we nearly there yet' in an earlier post).
Have you ever considered the possible reasons for the use of such terms ?
I've heard some great sermons on the possible reason that we are told his return is near, and they go something along the lines of it being for our benefit. A very simple anology being kids are more likely to stay behaving well and being good if they know that Dad is coming home any minute, whereas the truth may be that he's not going to be home for a while.
Just a thought.
If you still stand by 70ad, there's a mountain to explain away as regards what we are told will happen on his return.
Do you believe 1000 year reign and the day of the Lord as per Zechariah 14:1–21 are still yet to happen ?
What do you believe 70ad brought about exactly?

claninja · Jan 15, 2020

Nige55 said:
Ok, so 11 witnesses saw Jesus ascend. Do we have any witness on record that saw him descend ?

There are no Holy, inspired scriptures that provide testimony of Jesus descending. We should always use scripture to interpret scripture. So any interpretation outside of scripture is purely speculation.

Nige55 said:
The numbers aren't that important, 500, or 11. We have biblical records of witnesses who saw him ascend.

Correct, we have Holy, inspired scriptures that testify to Jesus' ascension

Nige55 said:
How can anyone be expected to accept that he has returned without any witnesses, when scripture itself states the 11 that you listed ?

By accepting the words of God himself

Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Nige55 said:
It's like assuming a prophecy has come to pass simply because it was prophesied.

Or it's a misunderstanding of OT language pertaining to God coming down from heaven.
Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

God came down multiple times in the OT in judgment. some examples:

1.)God came down from heaven to defeat David's enemies
2 Samuel 22:10 He parted the heavens and came down with dark clouds beneath His feet.

2.)God came down from heaven to judge Samaria
Micah 1:3 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.

3.)God came down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 This is the burden against Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud;
He is coming to Egypt.

There are no first hand witness of God coming down in these events, only prophecies. So why would Jesus' coming be different, especially if Jesus returns from heaven in the same way he left: hidden in cloud (acts 1:9)?

Nige55 said:
There seems to be a huge dependency on the terms 'near' and 'at hand'. These are both very unspecific words, and can vary wildly in perspective (hence my use of a child asking 'are we nearly there yet' in an earlier post).

This doesn't make sense. The child asking if "we are nearly there" is completely different that the parent telling the child "we are nearly there" when in fact, they are no where near yet. That would be a lie on the part of the parent to satisfy the child's longing to be near.

Nige55 said:
I've heard some great sermons on the possible reason that we are told his return is near, and they go something along the lines of it being for our benefit. A very simple anology being kids are more likely to stay behaving well and being good if they know that Dad is coming home any minute, whereas the truth may be that he's not going to be home for a while.

Any scripture to support this argument?

Nige55 said:
If you still stand by 70ad, there's a mountain to explain away as regards what we are told will happen on his return.

like what?

Nige55 said:
Do you believe 1000 year reign and the day of the Lord as per Zechariah 14:1–21 are still yet to happen

No. I believed they are fulfilled.

According to God himself, he would speak to the prophets of Israel, in visions, dreams, and riddles, and parables unlike how He spoke with Moses. So I don't take prophecies like zechariah 14 as literal unless there is sufficient NT scripture to support a literal interpretation.

Numbers 12:6-8 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. But this is not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house.a I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.

Hosea 12:10 spoke to the prophets;it was I who multiplied visions,
and through the prophets gave parables.

We have enough NT scripture to show that parts of zechariah are not literal, but a parable/vision/dream meant to prophecy of a future spiritual reality in Christ.

1.) Living water = coming of the Spirit upon believers
Zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem

John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

2.) feast of tabernacles = fulfilled in Christ, otherwise Paul's words are contradicted
Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

3.) going up to Jerusalem to worship is not literal, as it would contradict the words of Jesus. The Jerusalem being prophesied about is the one under the new covenant.
zechariah 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them

John 4:21 said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem

Additionally, The 1,000 year reign is from a apocalyptic and symbolic book. I believe the 1,000 year reign refers to Christ ascension to David's throne (1,000 years from the time of david to Christ) Can you provide non apocalyptic language to support a literal 1,000 reign?

David Kent · Jan 15, 2020

claninja said:
1.) Living water = coming of the Spirit upon believers
Zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem

Or more likely the gospel flowing out from Jerusalem

sovereigngrace · Jan 15, 2020

claninja said:
1.) I remembered a verse incorrectly, so I apologize. 500 witnesses did not see Jesus go into heaven. 500 witnesses saw Jesus post the resurrection, not necessarily at the ascension

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

Here is who is recorded as seeing Jesus taken up and hidden in a cloud at his ascension:

Acts 1:12-13 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away.c When they arrived, they went to the upper room where they were staying: Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James

2.) you left out part of my quote, which from my perspective, explained that no one saw Jesus actually go into heaven, only that they saw him taken up and was then hid by a cloud. So I apologize if my statement led you to believe that I stated witnesses actually saw Jesus go INTO heaven.

"If Jesus will come back in the same way as went into heaven, did every eye see him go into heaven? No, there were only roughly 500 witnesses. Unless, every single person is on the mount of olives at the 2nd coming, then not everyone will see physically with their eyes at the 2nd coming, if Jesus comes in the same exact way as he went into heaven.

In fact, how did Jesus go INTO heaven? hidden out of sight in a cloud."

The NT is completed so I cannot provide you any Holy, inspired, documents outside of the NT that give proof to the coming of the son of man in Judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad. I can only use scripture

Matthew 23:34 Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Again there were only 11 recorded witnesses to the ascension of Jesus, so my apologies for remembering a verse incorrectly. Based on that, I cannot give you the writings of 500 witnesses.

Acts 1:12-13 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away.c When they arrived, they went to the upper room where they were staying: Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James

From the 11 witnesses, here are 3 that have inspired NT scripture:

Peter believed the end was at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

John believed it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is at hand.

James states the Lord's coming was near, and even goes on to say that the Judge "is standing" at the door. The greek word "is standing" is present tense. The only way James could make that statement, which corresponds very nicely to the olivet discourse, is if the events of the olivet discourse were happening.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 23:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

Thus showing Jesus' words to be true.
Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

I don't see where you addressed it in post #82. you just stated we have different perspectives.

Can you explain why Daniel is told to seal up a vision that is for many days from now, while John is told not to seal up the vision because the time is at hand?

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is at hand.

What Scriptures, if any, do you believe describe a future coming of Christ?

sovereigngrace · Jan 15, 2020

claninja said:
Was Paul also wrong?

1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Was John wrong?

1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

Was James wrong?
James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They try and use them to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth. But a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture.

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches” or “draws nigh.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

The Bible sometimes even uses the words “hour” or “day” in a general non-literal sense to describe a time, age or era. But, again, the setting and duration of that period can only be definitely identified by observing the detail that continues throughout that given day. For example: we know that the phrase “the day of salvation” (John 5:25) is not referring to a single 24-hour day because it describes a period of ongoing salvation. Obviously, as long as salvation is happening, the day of salvation still exists. From repeated Scripture, we know that such a period was inaugurated at the beginning of the world/age and will last until the end of the world/age. That is when salvation is concluded. Jesus said in John 5:25: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The ‘hour is coming’ (hōra erchomai), and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This is not a literal 24 hours.

sovereigngrace · Jan 15, 2020

Briefcase said:
In Acts 2:15, Peter quotes the prophecy of Joel 2:28f about the last days and emphatically says: “This is that” which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

“This is that” does NOT mean “this is not that!”

Peter not only affirmed the last days had arrived in the first century, he repeated it in Acts 3. He said that all of the prophets from Samuel forward, “foretold these days” (Acts 3:24).

Hebrews 9:26 deals a crippling blow to the idea that the last days are yet future. The writer says Jesus, “has appeared once, at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

The question is at the end of what age did Jesus appear?

He surely did not appear at the end of the Christian age.

Jesus appeared under the Law (Gal 4:4), in the fullness of time. Thus, he appeared in the last days of the age of the Law, the last days of Israel, the last days of the Jewish age.

Paul insisted he was living in the end of the age (1 Cor 10:11 and Heb 1:1).

If the Jewish age was to end and the Christian age has no end, what age was about to end? (Heb 1:1; Js 5:3; 1Pet 1:20; Jude 18; 2Pet 3; 1 Jn 2:18)

What last days were they living in?

Time statements are consistently used, literally through the Bible, but the language of the “Day of the Lord” is consistently metaphorical throughout the Bible. There is not one example of “The Day of the Lord” language, ie: coming on the clouds, with fire, the Shout, The Trumpet, etc ever being fulfilled literally.

What Scriptures, if any, do you believe describe a future coming of Christ?

Nige55 · Jan 16, 2020

claninja said:
There are no Holy, inspired scriptures that provide testimony of Jesus descending. We should always use scripture to interpret scripture. So any interpretation outside of scripture is purely speculation.

You've backed up my point. There is no testimony of Jesus descending in scripture unlike his ascension, of which we have recorded testimonies.
That's why I beleive your assumption that he has already returned IS speculation.

[/QUOTE]Correct, we have Holy, inspired scriptures that testify to Jesus' ascension

By accepting the words of God himself

Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened[/QUOTE]

Funny how you will dismiss certain scripture as not being literal, but take the word 'generation' as being literal. I'd like to look up the Hebrew and Greek to see what is referenced by the word generation.

Or it's a misunderstanding of OT language pertaining to God coming down from heaven.
Matthew 23:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

God came down multiple times in the OT in judgment.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, but can you not see the clarity of distinction these examples, and the meaning and impact of his Son upon the earth ? (For starters, he first came as fully God and fully Man, a distinction from the examples you've listed)

[/QUOTE]some examples:

1.)God came down from heaven to defeat David's enemies
2 Samuel 22:10 He parted the heavens and came down with dark clouds beneath His feet.

2.)God came down from heaven to judge Samaria
Micah 1:3 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.

3.)God came down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 This is the burden against Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud;
He is coming to Egypt.

There are no first hand witness of God coming down in these events, only prophecies. So why would Jesus' coming be different, especially if Jesus returns from heaven in the same way he left: hidden in cloud (acts 1:9)?[/QUOTE]

Why would it be different ? - because there is a key difference ! Jesus ascension was very important to have been witnessed, and that's why there were witnesses. Also Matthew 24:27 Illustrates that Jesus will not return in secret or invisibly - "27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

[/QUOTE]This doesn't make sense. The child asking if "we are nearly there" is completely different that the parent telling the child "we are nearly there" when in fact, they are no where near yet. That would be a lie on the part of the parent to satisfy the child's longing to be near.[/QUOTE]

I think you really didn't get the analogy - the child's concept of time and distance is drastically different to that of an adult. A child will complain and moan at something not happening immediately, lacking the understanding or patience of how long something might take.
There's no lying involved.

[/QUOTE]Any scripture to support this argument?[/QUOTE]

Read my post again, I mentioned possible reason. It's normal for us to wonder about matters pertaining to God's plan and instructions.

like what?[/QUOTE]

Everything connected to the 1000 year reign for starters.

No. I believed they are fulfilled.

According to God himself, he would speak to the prophets of Israel, in visions, dreams, and riddles, and parables unlike how He spoke with Moses. So I don't take prophecies like zechariah 14 as literal unless there is sufficient NT scripture to support a literal interpretation.
[/QUOTE]
Do you not believe that a vision or dream could be used by God as indication of events to come ? When prophets of Israel is mentioned, would this not tie in with them receving prophesy through visions and dreams ?

[/QUOTE]
We have enough NT scripture to show that parts of zechariah are not literal, but a parable/vision/dream meant to prophecy of a future spiritual reality in Christ.
[/QUOTE]

Or maybe just a future reality in Christ ? Why add the spiritual in ?
[/QUOTE]
Additionally, The 1,000 year reign is from a apocalyptic and symbolic book. I believe the 1,000 year reign refers to Christ ascension to David's throne (1,000 years from the time of david to Christ) Can you provide non apocalyptic language to support a literal 1,000 reign? [/QUOTE]

Does the fact that Revelation is of 'apocalyptic language' discount it's truth ? Why would it ? Because people don't want to face the notion of an apocalypse ? If you believe that the 1000 year reign was the time of David to Christ, was satan bound during that time ? Has he been thrown into the lake of fire already ?
If you discount Revelation for 'apocalyptic language', then you must also discount Peter -
2 Peter 3:10-12
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. (11) Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, (12) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
I'd say that was pretty 'apocalyptic'.

On a lighter note, you're only understanding one side of Revelation if you see it as only apocalyptic, here's an example of the end result -
Revelation 21:5: "Behold, I make all things new."
Everything will be made new,glorious and wonderful !
Also -
Revelation 21:3-4 “And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, ‘Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.’”
To simply discount Revelation for being 'apocalyptic' is missing the key message totally !

DavidPT · Jan 16, 2020

claninja said:
2.) feast of tabernacles = fulfilled in Christ, otherwise Paul's words are contradicted
Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths

But these survivors of the nations have to be meaning after Zechariah 14:2-5, plus Zechariah 14:12-15, are all fulfilled first. Take verse 12 for instance.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

The timing of this is obviously meaning after the events recorded in verse 2 are fulfilled. So wherever one places the events of verse 2 in history, verse 12 is meaning a time post that. Some wrongly think verse 2 has to do with 70 AD. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that it does. That would be at least telling us that the fulfillment of verse 12 is meaning sometime after 70 AD.

So here we are and it's 2020, almost 2000 years later. So what event/s in the past 2000 years post 70 AD up until now, explains verse 12 then? But if you can't come up with any, maybe there is a good reason why. That reason being that this hasn't even been fulfilled yet. And if verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet, then neither has verses 16-19 been fulfilled yet either.

claninja · Jan 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches” or “draws nigh.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God.

With the exception of in relation to the "end time" or "last day", as we are in disagreement, can you provide any examples where "eggizo" is used in a "broad sense" to not mean literally near, in order to support your argument? If you can provide any example, outside of the last day or 2nd coming, where eggizo is used broadly to mean far off, then your argument would have support.

The argument of "God's perspective" is a poor argument as God tells us when things are far off and when things are near.

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

sovereigngrace said:
The Bible sometimes even uses the words “hour” or “day” in a general non-literal sense to describe a time, age or era. But, again, the setting and duration of that period can only be definitely identified by observing the detail that continues throughout that given day. For example: we know that the phrase “the day of salvation” (John 5:25) is not referring to a single 24-hour day because it describes a period of ongoing salvation. Obviously, as long as salvation is happening, the day of salvation still exists. From repeated Scripture, we know that such a period was inaugurated at the beginning of the world/age and will last until the end of the world/age. That is when salvation is concluded. Jesus said in John 5:25: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The ‘hour is coming’ (hōra erchomai), and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This is not a literal 24 hours.

Please provide an example, outside of the 2nd coming, where 'eggizo' is used in a non literal sense in order to support your argument.

If your only example of 'eggizo' meaning the opposite of its definition, is found in regards to the 2nd coming, then your argument is not logical and is extremely biased. Then we can just change the meaning of any word to suit our eschatological bias.

claninja · Jan 16, 2020

Nige55 said:
You've backed up my point. There is no testimony of Jesus descending in scripture unlike his ascension, of which we have recorded testimonies.
That's why I beleive your assumption that he has already returned IS speculation.

It's not speculation if Jesus specifically states:

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Nige55 said:
Funny how you will dismiss certain scripture as not being literal, but take the word 'generation' as being literal. I'd like to look up the Hebrew and Greek to see what is referenced by the word generation.

genea means generation. every single example of "this generation" in the NT refers to a specific group of people living at a specific time.

Nige55 said:
Indeed, but can you not see the clarity of distinction these examples, and the meaning and impact of his Son upon the earth ? (For starters, he first came as fully God and fully Man, a distinction from the examples you've listed)

But you are in agreement then that God came down from heaven multiple times in the OT?

Nige55 said:
I think you really didn't get the analogy - the child's concept of time and distance is drastically different to that of an adult. A child will complain and moan at something not happening immediately, lacking the understanding or patience of how long something might take.There's no lying involved.

If the parent tells the child they are near in order stop the children from complaining, even though they are not in fact near, that would be a lie.

Nige55 said:
Read my post again, I mentioned possible reason. It's normal for us to wonder about matters pertaining to God's plan and instructions.

I asked for scriptural support, not your speculations.

Nige55 said:
Everything connected to the 1000 year reign for starters.

the 1,000 years was fulfilled at Christ's ascension.

Nige55 said:
Do you not believe that a vision or dream could be used by God as indication of events to come ? When prophets of Israel is mentioned, would this not tie in with them receving prophesy through visions and dreams ?

I agree that visions and dreams and parables are used by God to display future events. The many of Jesus' parables pointed to the future. the kingdom of heaven is like a net catching good and bad fish. Do I believe the kingdom is about catching literal fish? No, but I believe the fish are representative of people.

Do you believe being born again means to literally go through your mother's womb again?

Nige55 said:
Or maybe just a future reality in Christ ? Why add the spiritual in ?

Because God is spirit and we worship in spirit and truth.

Nige55 said:
Does the fact that Revelation is of 'apocalyptic language' discount it's truth ?

No, but if we don't recognize it is symbolic and that it requires other scripture to interpret, speculations abound, as evidenced by the hundreds of different futuristic interpretations on this website alone.

claninja · Jan 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
But these survivors of the nations have to be meaning after Zechariah 14:2-5, plus Zechariah 14:12-15, are all fulfilled first. Take verse 12 for instance.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

The timing of this is obviously meaning after the events recorded in verse 2 are fulfilled. So wherever one places the events of verse 2 in history, verse 12 is meaning a time post that. Some wrongly think verse 2 has to do with 70 AD. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that it does. That would be at least telling us that the fulfillment of verse 12 is meaning sometime after 70 AD.

So here we are and it's 2020, almost 2000 years later. So what event/s in the past 2000 years post 70 AD up until now, explains verse 12 then? But if you can't come up with any, maybe there is a good reason why. That reason being that this hasn't even been fulfilled yet. And if verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet, then neither has verses 16-19 been fulfilled yet either.

God specifically states that he would speak to the prophets of Israel in dreams, vision, parables, and riddles UNLIKE how he spoke clearly to moses.

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

So i believe the prophecies are vision/parables/dreams/riddles that use earthly images to give a heavenly meaning found in Christ. that is why the disciples had to have their minds opened to understand the OT.

luke 24:45 then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

Thus our understanding of zechariah should come from the NT and not a literal reading.

The living waters flowing from Jerusalem refers the Spirit.

Zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Seab and the other half toward the Western Sea,c in summer and winter alike.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given,e because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

If one is to take zechariah 14 literal it directly contradicts the new testament.

If zechariah 14:17 is about literal earthly Jerusalem, it directly contradicts the words of Jesus in John 4:21

Zechariah 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father

If people are required to celebrate the feast of booths, it directly contradicts the words of Paul in Colossians 2

Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths

colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

sovereigngrace · Jan 16, 2020

claninja said:
With the exception of in relation to the "end time" or "last day", as we are in disagreement, can you provide any examples where "eggizo" is used in a "broad sense" to not mean literally near, in order to support your argument? If you can provide any example, outside of the last day or 2nd coming, where eggizo is used broadly to mean far off, then your argument would have support.

Please provide an example, outside of the 2nd coming, where 'eggizo' is used in a non literal sense in order to support your argument.

If your only example of 'eggizo' meaning the opposite of its definition, is found in regards to the 2nd coming, then your argument is not logical and is extremely biased. Then we can just change the meaning of any word to suit our eschatological bias.

In all 43 out of 43 biblical references. Check them out! The word carries the same import as our English word approach[es].

The argument of "God's perspective" is a poor argument as God tells us when things are far off and when things are near.

Click to expand...

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Most open-minded objective Christians grasp this. Your Preterist theology will not let you go there.

The Bible sometimes even uses the words “hour” or “day” in a general non-literal sense to describe a time, age or era. But, again, the setting and duration of that period can only be definitely identified by observing the detail that continues to occur throughout that given time-span. For example: Jesus said in John 5:25 Jesus taught: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming [Gr. hōra erchomai), and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” No one would surely insist in interpreting this as a literal 60 minutes. What is more, what is attributed to that “hour” lasts throughout the extent of the mentioned “hour” – namely spiritual resurrection. Christ here was simply saying ‘from this time forth’.

I John 2:18 describes the last days period introduced by Christ 2000 years ago, warning: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time [Gr. eschatos hōra or last hour].” It would be wrong to view this as speaking of a single hour. That is not remotely the sense or meaning. It is rather speaking about the intra-Advent period. This is a period that will continue to the coming of Christ, as other Scripture shows antichrist operating right up until the end.

sovereigngrace · Jan 16, 2020

claninja said:
God specifically states that he would speak to the prophets of Israel in dreams, vision, parables, and riddles UNLIKE how he spoke clearly to moses.

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

So i believe the prophecies are vision/parables/dreams/riddles that use earthly images to give a heavenly meaning found in Christ. that is why the disciples had to have their minds opened to understand the OT.

luke 24:45 then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

Thus our understanding of zechariah should come from the NT and not a literal reading.

The living waters flowing from Jerusalem refers the Spirit.

Zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Seab and the other half toward the Western Sea,c in summer and winter alike.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given,e because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

If one is to take zechariah 14 literal it directly contradicts the new testament.

If zechariah 14:17 is about literal earthly Jerusalem, it directly contradicts the words of Jesus in John 4:21

Zechariah 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father

If people are required to celebrate the feast of booths, it directly contradicts the words of Paul in Colossians 2

Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths

colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

What Scriptures, if any, do you believe describe a future coming of Christ?

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