True saving faith is proven by your repentance

Al Touthentop

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And certain people on this forum say, that unless you do certain good works perfectly, you cannot be saved. They never quite define what those good works are, or how many of them you have to do, instead of relying on the finished work of Christ for your salvation.

Totally inappropriate comparison. Paul was talking about doing works of an obsolete law, not just general good works. By definition, the people preaching this were leading people astray from the gospel which had it's own requirements.

To say that there are no requirements at all under the gospel is a gross distortion.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Colossians 1:20
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


"Reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself..."? "All things" would include infants and toddlers. Why would they need to be reconciled to God if they are, as you assert, sinless and innocent? Because, as the other Scripture references I offer above indicate, they are under the curse of sin brought upon all humanity by Adam and are by nature "children of wrath" as Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:3.

What was being reconciled were the two divisions of people, Jews and Gentiles into 'one body.' Children have no sin until they sin and that requires a knowledge of the law, its consequences and disobedience. If children are reconciled it isn't because they are sinful.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Fellowship and relationship, as I've already explained, are not the same thing.

Show me in the scripture. Don't just keep repeating an assertion which you can't support through the scriptures.
 
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renniks

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Your words here run contrary to Scripture:

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

"That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;" (Colossians 1:10).

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
Which of those says that your good works does anything to earn your salvation?

In fact, they indicate that any good works you do should be to glorify God.
 
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renniks

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In other words, if a person thinks God's grace is a safety net to sin in some way, they will never uphold a standard of living righteously.
Really? So I assume all the people you know who believe they are secure in their salvation are murdering and committing adultery regularly? Making statements about what you think people will do if they don't have to earn their salvation doesn't make it so. I find that many of them do tons of good works and don't tend to nit pic each other about the specks in everyone's eyes.
 
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Which of those says that your good works does anything to earn your salvation?

Before you were talking about how works do not make you worthy.
Now, you are talking about works do not earn salvation.
While works do not earn salvation, works do maintain salvation after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you need a list of verses?

Here you go:

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

You said:
In fact, they indicate that any good works you do should be to glorify God.

A moment ago you said that works do not make you worthy. According to the verses I presented, they say so otherwise. According to Jesus, picking up our cross, and denying ourselves, and following Him makes us worthy of Him. He said so Himself.
 
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Really? So I assume all the people you know who believe they are secure in their salvation are murdering and committing adultery regularly? Making statements about what you think people will do if they don't have to earn their salvation doesn't make it so. I find that many of them do tons of good works and don't tend to nit pic each other about the specks in everyone's eyes.

I am not saying that every "Belief Alone Proponent" is going to murder and commit adultery in the traditional sense. I am saying that you and many others already believe that you do not lose salvation via by sin and thus as a result this leads to justifying some kind of sin on some level that the Bible does condemn, whether it be lying, hating, lusting, coveting, etc.

As for the specks in people's eye statement you are alluding to in Scripture:
This part of Scripture is in reference to hypocritical judgment. It does not mean believers cannot judge other believers if they sin. Paul told the Corinthian church to kick out that brother who was fornicating in the church. According to Paul: We are not to have fellowship with a brother who is a drunkard or a fornicator, etc. Paul says that we are not to have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them.
 
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Really? So I assume all the people you know who believe they are secure in their salvation are murdering and committing adultery regularly? Making statements about what you think people will do if they don't have to earn their salvation doesn't make it so. I find that many of them do tons of good works and don't tend to nit pic each other about the specks in everyone's eyes.

I have yet to hear one Belief Alone Proponent tell me that they keep God's laws and that they support the idea that we must keep them. They are all for the idea that we cannot keep them. They obviously believe they are saved, so this means that they are saved despite their disobedience to God.
 
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God's good works save us. In fact James explains to us that without God's good works faith is dead. It can't save you.


First of all, you are referencing Isaiah who was using hyperbole to describe the condition of Israel at the time of that writing, not the permanent, general condition of all mankind. He was righteous himself being an oracle of God. And we know for certain that God does not hear sinners and he certainly doesn't speak through their mouths if they aren't righteous - doing the works of God.

If anyone does God's will, he is by definition righteous by God's standards, not man's. Isaiah was lamenting the fact that Israel was disobedient. Their righteousness was fake. Many were worshiping idols.

You are merely repeating the nonsense of some preacher. It's a slogan. The gospel teaches us that we must do the works God has prescribed in order to partake in Christ's sacrifice. You don't understand Grace at all. Grace is not magic dust, it is a kindness. God GAVE the commands we must do to participate in Christ's sacrifice. That is grace by definition. The commands are in and of themselves a gift.

I believe there are two aspects of the gospel we need to do:

The first aspect of the gospel is believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The second aspect of the gospel is "obeying the gospel."

This is important because Paul says,

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

Obeying the gospel is defined for us in the Scriptures.

Obeying the Crucifixion (or His Death):

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).​


Obeying The Resurrection:

4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life [i.e. the resurrection is likened to our walk in newness of life]
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:4-7).

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1).

I see the "seek those things which are above" as those holy actions mentioned in verses 12-17 (Colossians 3:12-17).​


In other words, the crucifixion aspect of obeying the gospel is surrendering one's life to Jesus, and in putting away the lusts of the flesh (like hate, lying, lusting, cursing, etc.), and the resurrection aspect of obeying the gospel is walking in good works or those proactive commands like: Spreading the gospel, Preaching the Word, helping the poor, loving the brethren, etc.

Now, looking at both aspects of the gospel: The belief aspect part of the gospel is Justification, and the obedience aspect part of the gospel is Sanctification. We first need God's grace by faith, and we need to then live holy and be fruitful for our Lord.
 
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renniks

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moment ago you said that works do not make you worthy. According to the verses I presented, they say so otherwise. According to Jesus, picking up our cross, and denying ourselves, and following Him makes us

John 2:23 says, “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

Short version answer; For Jesus, works are the evidence of one’s relationship to God (Matt 7:15-23)…However, this does not mean that any good work is worthy of eternal life ( Matt 7:22-23) lest anyone think they can deceive God. This is the reason why only Jesus will judge humanities’ works (Matt 7:1). People may deceive people but they will not deceive God (Gal 6:7-8).
Before you were talking about how works do not make you worthy.
Now, you are talking about works do not earn salvation.
While works do not earn salvation, works do maintain salvation after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you need a list of verses?

Here you go:

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).



A moment ago you said that works do not make you worthy. According to the verses I presented, they say so otherwise. According to Jesus, picking up our cross, and denying ourselves, and following Him makes us worthy of Him. He said so Himself.

If we could earn heaven by our good works, then we didn’t need Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. Paul writes the law was actually given to lead us to Christ. Once we understand we cannot enter heaven through trying to obey the law we should be open to a savior from sins.
Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

If Jesus taught we can earn heaven by works, then according to Matthew 5:20 you would have to live a life morally superior to the Jewish religious leaders. Yet, later in Matthew 5:48 Jesus sets the bar even higher. Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus here says you have to live a morally perfect life. How many people, outside of Jesus, have lived a sinless life? The Apostle Paul, speaking about all humanity, answered that question in Romans 3:10-12 (NIV) “As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.’” Paul’s answer is crystal clear; no one is good, not even one. You can only enter the kingdom of heaven by living a perfect life and no one has done that. Everyone who has ever lived is doomed to hell. So why did God give us the law if we cannot possibly keep it? And if our destiny is eternal destruction, how can we be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 1:18-20)?

The Mosaic Law was not given to show us how to get into heaven but to show us how we fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). If anyone thinks they can earn their way to heaven they need to read the Book of Galatians. Paul says in Galatians 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” If we could earn heaven by our good works, then we didn’t need Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Jesus told the Jews they had to live a perfect life to show them that wasn't possible to be saved by works.
 
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John 2:23 says, “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

Short version answer; For Jesus, works are the evidence of one’s relationship to God (Matt 7:15-23)…However, this does not mean that any good work is worthy of eternal life ( Matt 7:22-23) lest anyone think they can deceive God. This is the reason why only Jesus will judge humanities’ works (Matt 7:1). People may deceive people but they will not deceive God (Gal 6:7-8).


If we could earn heaven by our good works, then we didn’t need Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. Paul writes the law was actually given to lead us to Christ. Once we understand we cannot enter heaven through trying to obey the law we should be open to a savior from sins.
Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”


If Jesus taught we can earn heaven by works, then according to Matthew 5:20 you would have to live a life morally superior to the Jewish religious leaders. Yet, later in Matthew 5:48 Jesus sets the bar even higher. Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus here says you have to live a morally perfect life. How many people, outside of Jesus, have lived a sinless life? The Apostle Paul, speaking about all humanity, answered that question in Romans 3:10-12 (NIV) “As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.’” Paul’s answer is crystal clear; no one is good, not even one. You can only enter the kingdom of heaven by living a perfect life and no one has done that. Everyone who has ever lived is doomed to hell. So why did God give us the law if we cannot possibly keep it? And if our destiny is eternal destruction, how can we be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 1:18-20)?

The Mosaic Law was not given to show us how to get into heaven but to show us how we fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). If anyone thinks they can earn their way to heaven they need to read the Book of Galatians. Paul says in Galatians 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” If we could earn heaven by our good works, then we didn’t need Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Jesus told the Jews they had to live a perfect life to show them that wasn't possible to be saved by works.

First, your points do not make any logical sense in light of the verses you quoted. For example: You point out how works will not save us and you refer to Matthew 7:22-23, but you ignore the part where Jesus said that they are to depart from Him because they work iniquity and lawlessness; And you ignore the part in Matthew 7:26-27 that says that anyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So obviously works are necessary. It is just that one cannot justify sin and work iniquity or lawless (Which is why Jesus told these believers to depart from Him - see Matthew 7:23). In other words, good works will not save a person if they are also justifying sin in some way.

Second, please give a word for word commentary in your own words on at least 3-5 verses from my list on how the works of God done through us do play a part in the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace through faith).

Three, I already told you that we are not under the 613 laws of Moses. So you are putting forth a straw man argument here. I believe the New Covenant believer is to follow the commands of Jesus and His followers. I do not believe we can be justified by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613).
 
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renniks

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Oh, good. Then maybe you might accept this verse then.

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).
In context it's about keeping the faith under persecution. It's not specifically about keeping salvation although they could lose it if they renounce thier faith. Not sure how you think this related to being saved by works.
 
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In context it's about keeping the faith under persecution. It's not specifically about keeping salvation although they could lose it if they renounce thier faith. Not sure how you think this related to being saved by works.

Jesus also says in Matthew 5:16 that we are to glorify God the Father by our works. To follow Jesus means we are to follow even these words by Jesus in Matthew 5:16. Jesus told us to do all kinds of other good works, too (like helping the poor, etc. - See: Luke 10:29-37, and Matthew 25:31-46). This would also be about following Jesus.
 
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renniks

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This part of Scripture is in reference to hypocritical judgment. It does not mean believers cannot judge other believers if they sin.
No it says you can only judge thier imperfections if you don't have your own sins. Good luck with that.
 
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renniks

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Jesus also says in Matthew 5:16 that we are to glorify God the Father by our works. To follow Jesus means we are to follow even these words by Jesus in Matthew 5:16. Jesus told us to do all kinds of other good works, too (like helping the poor, etc. - See: Luke 10:29-37, and Matthew 25:31-46). This would also be about following Jesus.
That would be fruit we produce through the Spirit. Not to obtain salvation, but to glorify God. Yes, it's obedience. Unless it's done for personal gain and glory. Then, it would be the opposite of obedience. If you have to obtain your own salvation, what did Christ die for? I haven't gotten an answer to this question.
 
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No it says you can only judge thier imperfections if you don't have your own sins. Good luck with that.

It is not talking about imperfections. It is talking about hypocritical judgment.

For how can you cast the beam out of your own eye so as to see clearly to cast the mote out of your brother's eye?

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:5).

Jesus tells us in another place that we can judge as long as it is righteous judgment.

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).
 
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renniks

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Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:5).
We are all hypothetical though. None of us live up to " Be thou perfect." And I find it kind of ironic, that you apparently think you can live up to that, when we couldn't even live up to the 613 laws.
 
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