Virginia HB961 - Actual gun confiscation unless you register it with the state

Speedwell

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Except that most gun crimes are committed by people who legally are not permitted to have guns in the first place. That means that most gun crime is committed with guns either stolen or from the black market ( which really are the same thing as stolen is not bought lawfully.
The presence of a gun in the "black market" means someone who legally owned a gun either had it stolen or sold it carelessly. And you think registered ownership would not help solve that problem. OK.
 
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dogs4thewin

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The presence of a gun in the "black market" means someone who legally owned a gun either had it stolen or sold it carelessly. And you think registered ownership would not help solve that problem. OK.
It would not solve gun crimes because the mere fact that I did not report a gun missing would not prove who DID commit the more violent crime. Nor, would background checks do much if the person had a clean background and did something. Which remember, the only way you get a conviction is one getting caught and two either admitting guilt or the state having enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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Speedwell

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It would not solve gun crimes because the mere fact that I did not report a gun missing would not prove who DID commit the more violent crime.
No, but if you had been more careful (something registered ownership would encourage) the gun might not have gone missing to begin with. Further, the fact that the gun had a known owner at a certain point might be a clue as to whose hands it had been in subsequently.


Nor, would background checks do much if the person had a clean background and did something. Which remember, the only way you get a conviction is one getting caught and two either admitting guilt or the state having enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
Yes, if the police find a registered gun at a crime scene they may discover that it belongs to a person with a clean record. So what?
 
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dogs4thewin

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Currently a mass shooting is defined as any time four or more people are shot. If they increased the number ( because if you asks me is not mass OR they said for example a mass shooting is only when four or more people are shot unrelated to another crime to narrow down to strictly big public shootings for no reason at all handguns probably would not be most mass shootings.
 
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whatbogsends

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so if I am day short of my 18th birthday my parents should face the same charges as they would if I were say ten or twelve? Under the law in most states and cases that 17 year old is a child.

You seem to think that because there is an age cutoff that the applicability of the law due to a 1 day disparity makes the law unjust. It's an absurd premise.

You think it's different between age 18 and someone who's 12?

Well, according to you, there's no difference between someone who's 18 years old and someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 29 days, correct?

Let's extrapolate.

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 29 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 28 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 28 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 27 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 27 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 26 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 26 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 25 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 25 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 24 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 24 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 23 days?
...
Is there a difference between someone who's 13 years, 0 months, and 1 day and 13 years, 0 months, and 0 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 13 years, 0 months, and 0 days and 12 years, 11 months, and 29 days?

At some point there's going to be a cut off. Unless your argument is that there should never be laws that use age as a measure (drinking age, voting age, age for minor/adult), then there will ALWAYS be a 1-day cutoff between the legality which appears trivial in reality, but is meaningful in law.
 
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dogs4thewin

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No, but if you had been more careful (something registered ownership would encourage) the gun might not have gone missing to begin with. Further, the fact that the gun had a known owner at a certain point might be a clue as to whose hands it had been in subsequently.


Yes, if the police find a registered gun at a crime scene they may discover that it belongs to a person with a clean record. So what?
Meaning that if I sell a gun say I did a background check came back clean the next week the gun was used to commit a crime was I careless in selling the gun if I did a background check and had no reason to believe the person would do anything.
 
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Paulos23

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States do require you to pass a safety course if you wish to carry concealed which would be out in public.
And I am saying maybe we should extend that to the general population of gun owners.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You seem to think that because there is an age cutoff that the applicability of the law due to a 1 day disparity makes the law unjust. It's an absurd premise.

You think it's different between age 18 and someone who's 12?

Well, according to you, there's no difference between someone who's 18 years old and someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 29 days, correct?

Let's extrapolate.

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 29 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 28 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 28 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 27 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 27 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 26 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 26 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 25 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 25 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 24 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 17 years, 11 months, and 24 days and 17 years, 11 months, and 23 days?
...
Is there a difference between someone who's 13 years, 0 months, and 1 day and 13 years, 0 months, and 0 days?

Is there a difference between someone who's 13 years, 0 months, and 0 days and 12 years, 11 months, and 29 days?

At some point there's going to be a cut off. Unless your argument is that there should never be laws that use age as a measure (drinking age, voting age, age for minor/adult), then there will ALWAYS be a 1-day cutoff between the legality which appears trivial in reality, but is meaningful in law.
If a teenager commits a crime with a gun and the parents had no reason to know that the teenager might such as a history of mental health issues or a violent history that parent should NOT face charges for that teen's behavior unless the parent voluntarly gave the gun to the teen knowing that. At some point it should be considered acceptable to leave your gun unsecured for self defense purposes around minors. Now, if we are talking about leaving a gun in easy access of a very young child like a toddler that is different. Althoughm really a kid that young should never be left alone.
 
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dogs4thewin

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And I am saying maybe we should extend that to the general population of gun owners.
Why? If someone is not using it in public why take the same safety course?
 
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98cwitr

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Currently a mass shooting is defined as any time four or more people are shot. If they increased the number ( because if you asks me is not mass OR they said for example a mass shooting is only when four or more people are shot unrelated to another crime to narrow down to strictly big public shootings for no reason at all handguns probably would not be most mass shootings.

Even if it was 10, handguns would still be at the top of the list. The ONLY mass shooting that would apply to your sentiment, to my knowledge (and I probably need to refresh things), would be Las Vegas. That said, 10k people die a year from DUI related accidents; should we look at repealing the 21st amendment and reinstating the 18th?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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States do require you to pass a safety course if you wish to carry concealed which would be out in public.
Not all do - Montana, Alabama, Missouri and Indiana (at least, I haven't checked every state) do not require any training courses. Also, many more states allow open carry without a permit, which is another viable alternative for carrying a gun in public.

Edit: found the full list of states that don't require permits Constitutional Carry / Unrestricted / Permitless Carry | USCCA

Indiana requires a permit, but no training
 
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98cwitr

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Not all do - Montana, Alabama, Missouri and Indiana (at least, I haven't checked every state) do not require any training courses. Also, many more states allow open carry without a permit, which is another viable alternative for carrying a gun in public.

Montana is actually a FFA state. You can legally (according to state law but not federal) own a suppressor in Montana without going through the ATF/NFA requirements as long as the suppressor is produced in the state and you never travel outside of the state with it.

Firearms Freedom Act
 
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Paulos23

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Why? If someone is not using it in public why take the same safety course?
Because lately, to many people have been taking them into public places and have not been acting safely. Or, they have had misjudged if they need to use them, or how to use them.

Some advanced training would cut down on such issues.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Again, only if the guns are registered. What people seem to forget is there is this little thing called a black market.

The black market isn't a place....it's just a term used, in this context, to describe the illegal sale and trade of firearms.

It just so happens those are a couple of the gun crimes that are easier to fight when there's a gun registry.
 
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Most mass shootings occur with handguns, so why do you think the Dems are coming after rifles (which, according to FBI statistics killed 3x less people than a knife in 2017)?

My guess is the visibility of assault rifles in mass shootings....they tend to get more coverage in the press.

Gun legislation is a pretty common issue on the left, and going after assault rifles is way to show "they're doing something" in a visible way.

It's their "border wall" in a way. It'll probably stop some high profile crimes....but you're correct, the majority of gun crimes in general are committed with pistols.
 
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dogs4thewin

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My guess is the visibility of assault rifles in mass shootings....they tend to get more coverage in the press.

Gun legislation is a pretty common issue on the left, and going after assault rifles is way to show "they're doing something" in a visible way.

It's their "border wall" in a way. It'll probably stop some high profile crimes....but you're correct, the majority of gun crimes in general are committed with pistols.
Yet, by body count rifles in general and assault rifles in particular take very few human lives a year, so would it not make sense if you are going to "do something" that you would at least go after what is likely to kill more people, as opposed to what kills more people AT A TIME.
 
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dogs4thewin

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The black market isn't a place....it's just a term used, in this context, to describe the illegal sale and trade of firearms.

It just so happens those are a couple of the gun crimes that are easier to fight when there's a gun registry.
I know the black market is a term not a place. That is actually the point of it people that buy stuff in general on the black market drugs, guns whatever else do not give a darn that they are not supposed to have it; whatever it is.
 
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98cwitr

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My guess is the visibility of assault rifles in mass shootings....they tend to get more coverage in the press.

So shouldn't we scrutinize media bias and push back for effective measure to save lives? Rather than focusing on the tool used, isn't imperative we understand the root causes what was is encouraging people to commit these crimes? At least from my research, the solution to this is to reestablish fathers in the homes by removing the incentives that kicked them out in the first place (see Johnson's "Model Cities" program from 1965...that's where a lot of this started)?

Gun legislation is a pretty common issue on the left, and going after assault rifles is way to show "they're doing something" in a visible way.

While common, is it justified? My answer is absolutely not.

It's their "border wall" in a way. It'll probably stop some high profile crimes....but you're correct, the majority of gun crimes in general are committed with pistols.

Agreed! Not to segue, but guns save lives more than they take the lives of innocent people.
 
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