True saving faith is proven by fearing the Lord!

BCsenior said:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

“You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)

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Hello BCsenior, thank you for posting those verses for us, especially in this context, as I'd like to make a comment or two about them.

I have a problem with your idea (concerning Ephesians 2:8-9) that we are saved by grace, ~apart~ from good works or anything else that we do, at the moment that we are saved, alone .. but then, at least in part, that we are saved ~by~ our good works from that point on.

If we are saved by what ~we~ do, instead of by what Jesus did for us (and that from first to last), then we are not "saved by grace" (as I believe the Bible makes clear for us). For instance:

Finally, does not the verse that you gave us from Galatians 5 above make this same point (granted, from a different angle), that those who attempt to justify themselves ~by what they do/by their obedience~ are the ones who have fallen away from grace and are estranged from Christ?

So, it seems to me that we are saved, from first to last, by God's merciful and gracious choice to save us, and that, NOT on the basis of our deeds, even the deeds which we do as Christians in perfect accord with His will (our "deeds done in righteousness"), rather, the basis for our gracious salvation is Jesus, and the deeds that He did for us (this includes both His death on the Cross, as well the perfect, righteous life that He lived before His Father on our behalf) .. e.g. Titus 3:5; cf 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Thanks

--David
p.s. - we are saved and made "His workmanship" for/unto good works, not because of them

BCsenior said:

I don't recall ever hearing this from God or man.
Just what percentage of church goers in the USA do you think have this fear of God?
Me, I'd say it is less than 1%.
Perhaps one the main reasons is the antinomianism mentioned in the OP.

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That is not surprising because few teachers have a knowledge of the whole bible.

God only knows the %

Most folks are not exposed to more than one theological line...

BCsenior said:

Since we must take the whole of the NT into account ...
again, I say that your John 5:24 is talking about that INITIAL MOMENT.
Think about it ... you can do it.

IMO, 5:24, etc. is to give the new/baby Christian hope, confidence, etc.
Later, the Holy Spirit will reveal the rest of the new covenant,
which says that BACs have a responsibility to co-operate with God
as they work out their salvation as they are being sanctified unto holiness.

But, there great hindrances: SATAN, false preachers/teachers, ergo false doctrines.

These all stand against the word + God's still small voice.

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I tried, but the only thought that I can come up with is, "how can that be?" .. that John 5:24 is speaking of the initial moment of our salvation, alone, since it:

So, it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the moment of our salvation, as well every moment thereafter

--David
p.s. - here's a passage that tells us a little bit more about this.

BCsenior said:

True Grace
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
From all of the NT, we need to understand that God’s grace is given
when believers INITIALLY receive the precious Holy Spirit within.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Believers can be cut off by God, and grace can be lost …
For example:
“You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)

False Grace
Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism are called antinomianism!
This is the notion that a one-time justification saves … apart from sanctification.
But, this is an “incomplete” understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!
It is incomplete because God’s grace is intended to be made “complete” by the
believer doing his part in his salvation … co-operating with the precious Holy Spirit
… as He works to fully sanctify the believer unto holiness!
The problem with easy-believism is it allows those who are NOT walking in obedience
to live comfortably with a false sense of assurance leading to tragedy (as in Matthew 7:21-23).
It encourages people living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin, by offering them a false assurance.
QUESTION … Why would deceived “grace-only” people fear the Lord?

Some “fear of the Lord” Scripture verses

“some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.” (Jude 4, NLT)

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28)

“… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)

“… beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1)

“Let us be thankful and please God by worshiping him with holy fear and awe.
For our God is a devouring fire.” (Hebrews 12:28-29)

“And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” (Luke 1:50)

“And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit …” (Acts 9:31)

“But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness
is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

“Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches,
He may not spare you either. (Romans 11:20-21)

“… be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
… conduct yourselves during the time of your stay here in fear” (1 Peter 1:15-17)

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” (Proverbs 1:7 and 9:10)

“I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.” (Jeremiah 32:40)

Dr. Michael Brown explains the critical danger of hyper-grace
on several of Sid Roth’s TV programs, which are available on YouTube.

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Your doctrine reminds me of the TV drama, the Good Place.

St_Worm2 said:

I tried, but the only thought that I can come up with is, "how can that be?" .. that John 5:24 is speaking of the initial moment of our salvation, alone, since it:

1. speaks of our receiving "eternal (not probationary) life" at that moment and,
2. tells us that we will not be judged and condemned at the end of the age in the Judgment
​

So, it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the moment of our salvation, as well every moment thereafter

--David
p.s. - here's a passage that tells us a little bit more about this.

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will ~never~ perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
​

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Amen!

Evoked the following as well:

Philippians 1: NASB

3I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

BCsenior said:

This is a clue as to where you're coming from.
What about the BACs who don't fit one or more of the RED?
And you have to understand what Jesus means by "knowing" them.

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Jesus is the Shepherd right?

First of all, it is highly foolish to believe that obeying God out of legal terror and fear of hell pleases Him. In fact, He abhors any obedience that man brings to Him that is done out of a selfish motive. Do you honestly believe that God is pleased seeing you obey Him simply because He promises the reward of glory and the threat of damnation? I dare say that seeking and obeying our Lord out of legal terror is nothing short of hypocrisy and deserves the darkest, deepest, and hottest place in hell. It neither saves your soul nor does it give glory to God but to yourself.
Do you want to know how true grace in the soul is proven? It is proven when our obedience is done for God’s glory and not our salvation. What’s more difficult? To mourn for sin out of self love because of the punishment it deserves or mourning for sin because it offends God? True fear of the Lord does indeed include fearing His wrath, but it is also filial fear. It includes not only fearing His wrath, but fearing to offend Him. This was the major difference between the repentance of Judas and Peter. Judas was brought to despair because he mourned for his sin because of the punishment deserving of it, while Peter mourned for his sin because it offended the One whom he loved so dearly. The repentance of Judas was legal and was rejected by God, but the evangelical repentance of Peter pleased our Lord and He restored Peter through faith.
Thirdly, you fail to realize that love casts out fear. “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.” ‭‭(1 John‬ ‭4:18‬). Notice how fear (legal terror) has to do with punishment, but they who know the love of God have fear purged from their souls and they can obey God in righteousness without dread. “...that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.” (‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:74-75‬).
Tell me then, everyone on this forum, what is the motivation for your obedience? Is it fear of hell or sin? There is a massive difference. He who obeys because he fears punishment loves himself, but he who obeys because he fears sin loves God. The hypocrite would commit all manner of sin if he would. The hypocrite secretly loves his sin and hates God’s commandments. If there were no hell or threat of punishment he would commit all manner of wickedness. Yet the true gracious man, he would hate sin as sin. He would detest it because as John Bunyan says, it is the dare of God’s justice, the rape of His mercy, the jeer of His patience, the slight of His power, and the contempt of His love. He who obeys God as a slave would obey his master has not yet learned Christ nor the love of God.
Yet I dare not say that I am perfect in this. In fact, more often than not I obey out of fear. The only thing that can cure this is seeing Christ as He is. A merciful and a compassionate Saviour. Only then will love be poured in our hearts for our Redeemer and we will hate sin not because it damns, but because it crucified our Lord. As Spurgeon said, “When I though God was hard (cruel), I found it easy to sin; but when I found God so kind, so good, so overflowing with compassion, I beat my breast to think I could ever have rebelled against One who loved me so and sought my good.” May God grant us true repentance and obedience.

BCsenior said:

I've been preaching this for years now ...
about reconciling the verses on both sides of OSAS.

People are gonna think I paid you to come up with this!

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I won't tell'm if you won't

BCsenior said:

...you don't believe James when he says ... faith without works is garbage! No, you think that faith is all that matters. I hope I'm not being too rough on you!

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You are a big meanie BC, that's for sure, but I've had to suffer through some who are just as bad, or maybe even worse .. occasionally. Such is my lot in life, apparently

BTW, your concern here is noted. Am I sensing a chink in your armor?

That said, I think our works as Christians matter, A LOT (now someone's going to think you paid me again ).

After all, God saves us for wonderful purposes in the here and now .. e.g. Isaiah 43:10; Matthew 5:14-16; Ephesians 2:10 .. but .. the good works/holy living/acts of obedience that we believers do in Christ are the ~result~ of God changing and then saving us .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, they are NEVER the cause of our salvation (of either being saved or remaining saved).

--David

BCsenior said:

... a gift can be given back (i.e. rejected).

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That's true, but ~this~ gift is SO incredible, SO wonderful, SO appreciated, by ALL who receive it, that no one gives it back to God or rejects it ............. ever!!

--David

Hello @BCsenior, I have a couple of questions that I've been meaning to ask you about your threads. Like this one for instance:

Thanks!

--David

BCsenior said:

We just do not know WHO the Father gives to Jesus! Don't forget that Satan's tares (weeds) grow up indistinguishable from God's wheat.

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That is true. I'm sure that the folks described in Matthew 7:22 who, at least appeared to do mighty works as Christians (but were on their way to the Lake of Fire because they were not .. see v23), may have looked like SUPER-Christians to others in their local churches.

However, we are called to examine ourselves to make sure that we are truly in the faith, yes .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5; 2 Peter 1:10; cf 1 John 5:13, and I believe that this is where the good works/obedience and perseverance in the faith that you champion so regularly (along with all of the other "fruits" of the Spirit, of course) become so helpful to us (in seeking to obey that command).


There are other ways of testing ourselves too, of course, but the above is a BIG part of the evidence, I think.

Finally, two things are made clear to us in John 6, that 1. NO ONE can come to Jesus w/o first being drawn and given to Him by His Father, and 2. EVERYONE ... w/o exception ... who the Father "draws" and gives to His Son WILL choose to come to Him and be saved by Him .. John 6:37-40, 44, 65. As the Lord Jesus tells us plainly, I LOSE NOTHING

--David

BCsenior said:

People just don't get it ...
Paul was instructed by Jesus during his 17 years in the desert places (Galatians 1:18, 2:1) ...
that he was to be very encouraging to BACs everywhere (esp. new babes in Christ) ...
and because all kinds of BACs were being read his letters (in the churches) ...
ergo, he was to be very encouraging in his letters to all BACs.
Meanwhile, he mixed his dire warnings about the possibility of losing salvation
quite tactfully in amongst his many edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.

Everything Paul was confident about ... was it Gospel truth?

So, again, it's all about ...
one group of NT verses ... vs ... another group of NT verses!
Just like it is with respect to OSAS and eternal security, for example.

Which group of verses are you going to choose?
Which group of verses are you going to reject?
This is total insanity!
One must RECONCILE both groups of verses!
I'm open to helping anyone with this problem.

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The confidence was not in the Philippians who earlier he boasted of, but confidence God would finish what he started.