Did Jesus take the punishment for our sins?

leefromcanada

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

Edit: I also have another question: Did Jesus take the punishment for everyone's sins? Is that something 1 John 2:2 is communicating?
 
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BBAS 64

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

Good day, Lee

Yes he did....

Him who knew no sin he made to be'sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand

In Him,

Bill
 
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dqhall

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?
God sent Jesus in order for sinners to repent and receive mercy. Those sinners who punished Jesus did not get the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those who helped Jesus did not lose their reward.
 
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HTacianas

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

It is correct to say all of those things. Separately and together. As a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each having the same will, to accomplish the will of one is to accomplish the will of all.

But to say that Jesus took the punishment for sin as a stand in for us doesn't go quite far enough. An offense requires punishment, but for what reason. The reason is that the first sin set disorder in the creation and that disorder had to be reordered.

A hopelessly simple example would be if you went to a store to buy five items. You pay for those items but when you get home you look at your receipt and you were only charged for four items. In a perfect world you would have been charged for all five. That brings disorder. That disorder must be reordered, else there is chaos. Even if that chaos exists only inside your mind.

The chaos, or disorder, existed in the creation until the sacrifice of Christ brought order back to the creation. Even human punishment for human crimes is an attempt to reorder the chaos created by some offense, and often does reorder the chaos in the victim's mind, or in the mind of society. But often it doesn't because neither the victim nor society are satisfied with the result.

God, being in all the creation, was satisfied with the sacrifice of Christ, and the creation is now ordered.
 
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Monna

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Good day, Lee

Yes he did....

So I have a question - in the form of a postulation. If Jesus was punished for my sins - i.e. instead of me, then there is neither punishment nor forgiveness for me. The law in itself does not provide for forgiveness, only payment. Forgiveness is apart from the law, and does away with the law's requirements. Please put these things together for me.

Also how could Jesus die "in my stead" i.e. instead of me, when I was already spiritually dead? It must refer to spiritual, not physical death, because all Christians between AD 30 and AD 1900 died physically, so he couldn't have died physically instead of them.
 
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renniks

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

Edit: I also have another question: Did Jesus take the punishment for everyone's sins? Is that something 1 John 2:2 is communicating?
Yes, but I I think it's very important to be careful how we interpret that. It wasn't some kind of cosmic child abuse. Jesus took our punishment willingly. He also conquered death and the devil, so it's not only about punishment.
 
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BBAS 64

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So I have a question - in the form of a postulation. If Jesus was punished for my sins - i.e. instead of me, then there is neither punishment nor forgiveness for me. The law in itself does not provide for forgiveness, only payment. Forgiveness is apart from the law, and does away with the law's requirements. Please put these things together for me.

Also how could Jesus die "in my stead" i.e. instead of me, when I was already spiritually dead? It must refer to spiritual, not physical death, because all Christians between AD 30 and AD 1900 died physically, so he couldn't have died physically instead of them.

Good Day,

There are 2 sides (sin and death) of the Law that have to be accounted for it condemns and requires obedience.

The Law does not and can not provide forgiveness it is impossible for the Blood of Bulls and Goats to take away sin. God in Jesus in that the righteousness requirement of the Law was filled in us... by being condemned by the Father for sin which he became, and perfect obedience to the Law. (Romans 7)

He sacrificed himself physically (Hebrew 10.)

There fore there is no condemnation (by the law)! (Romans 8:1)

Does that help!

in Him,

Bill
 
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leefromcanada

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Good day, Lee

Yes he did....

Him who knew no sin he made to be'sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand

In Him,

Bill

How did Jesus take the punishment for our sins? Was it with His death, or was it with what He suffered on the cross and His death? Or was anything else a part of it?
 
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BBAS 64

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Yes, but I I think it's very important to be careful how we interpret that. It wasn't some kind of cosmic child abuse. Jesus took our punishment willingly. He also conquered death and the devil, so it's not only about punishment.


Good Day, Renniks

Cosmic child abuse .. there is the most illogical statement I have ever heard, simple nonsensical construction. ^_^

On second thought "if" that were even a remote possibility ( not that nonsense can be possible "categorically")... it would not be such a bad thing.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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How did Jesus take the punishment for our sins? Was it with His death, or was it with what He suffered on the cross and His death? Or was anything else a part of it?


Good day, Lee

yes and both... he is the propitiation (cause) of our peace with God.

Try reading the Great exchange by Jerry Bridges.. Or The Great Exchange
In Him,

Bill
 
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renniks

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Good Day, Renniks

Cosmic child abuse .. there is the most illogical statement I have ever heard, simple nonsensical construction. ^_^

On second thought "if" that were even a remote possibility ( not that nonsense can be possible "categorically")... it would not be such a bad thing.

In Him,

Bill
I'm not sure what you mean by that? God the Father and the Son are one. You might have just as well say Jesus poured out wrath on himself.
 
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BBAS 64

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I'm not sure what you mean by that? God the Father and the Son are one. You might have just as well say Jesus poured out wrath on himself.

Good day, Renniks

One in essence 3 in person.. that statement may violate the the Nicean Creed, so I will not confirm that as accurate. I hope you understand I steer clear of historical heresy.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

Edit: I also have another question: Did Jesus take the punishment for everyone's sins? Is that something 1 John 2:2 is communicating?
In order to understand the work on the cross by Jesus Christ of Nazareth we must start with the "system" of forgiveness given by God to Moses through the Old Covenant. Blood sacrifice by lamb, an imperfect solution to sin. Though Old Testament atonement was a temporary solution for evil, evil still persisted no matter how many sacrifices were made.
The Gospel was given to the Jew first then to the Gentile. We need to trace the history of the relationship between God and His chosen people before Jesus Christ of Nazareth appeared. Jesus was able to conquer death and rise from the dead. Christ made Himself the perfect sacrifice who now intercedes Himself to anyone who needs Him. Because Christ became the perfect sacrifice, the ritual of animal sacrifice was no longer required.
 
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BBAS 64

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In order to understand the work on the cross by Jesus Christ of Nazareth we must start with the "system" of forgiveness given by God to Moses through the Old Covenant. Blood sacrifice by lamb, an imperfect solution to sin. Though Old Testament atonement was a temporary solution for evil, evil still persisted no matter how many sacrifices were made.
The Gospel was given to the Jew first then to the Gentile. We need to trace the history of the relationship between God and His chosen people before Jesus Christ of Nazareth appeared. Jesus was able to conquer death and rise from the dead. Christ made Himself the perfect sacrifice who now continually offers Himself to anyone who needs Him. Because Christ became the perfect sacrifice, the ritual of animal sacrifice was no longer required.

Good day, Maria

I do not think he offers Himself continually to the Father for the sins of His people:
The purification for sin is done.

Heb 1

After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Heb 7 :23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.He has no need,like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

He now intercedes for them at the right hand of the Father.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Good day, Maria

I do not think he offers Himself continually to the Father for the sins of His people:
The purification for sin is done.

Heb 1

After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Heb 7 :23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.He has no need,like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

He now intercedes for them at the right hand of the Father.

In Him,

Bill
Agree, I will change the word.
 
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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

Edit: I also have another question: Did Jesus take the punishment for everyone's sins? Is that something 1 John 2:2 is communicating?

Yea basically God took wrath for all of your sins so he was punished for you , like Jesus said all sin has will be forgiven to man but 1 sin which he couldn't which is rejection of Holy Spirit which is unbelief , so God gives chance at least once in person's life to hear gospel of salvation and if you accept you become Born of God and have Holy Spirit come inside of you and seal you for ressurrection , if you reject the gospel you reject the Holy Spirit thus die and suffer in hell for rejecting the only thing you could be saved by basically.

so no people don't suffer in hell for stealing they suffer for rejection of Holy Spirit , kids don't suffer because they couldn't choose yet so they have not rejected it , likewise disabled mentally ill people not suffer for it.

Here is the definition of gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 , then might also read Ephesians 2:8-9 , Ephesians 1:13-14


this is basically the core of Christianity other stuff like church things and also many added traditions over time which were man made have nothing to do with it , not like all traditions are bad some are wonderful and some even will be witnessed when Christ comes back like Feast of Tabernacles
 
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bling

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Is it correct that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? If so, is it also correct that Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us? If Jesus took the wrath that God the Father has towards sin for us He didn't also take the wrath that He Himself has towards sin for us (if Jesus is wrathful towards sin, is He?) or the wrath that the Holy Spirit has towards sin for us (if the Holy Spirit is wrathful towards sin, is the Holy Spirit wrathful towards sin?) did He?

Edit: I also have another question: Did Jesus take the punishment for everyone's sins? Is that something 1 John 2:2 is communicating?
God forgave our sins 100% but it is up to us to fully accept God's forgiveness or forgiveness will not take place (Forgiveness is a transaction).
Since God forgave 100% there is nothing left to "pay", but a huge unbelievable ransom was paid. To whom was the ransom paid to since God is not an undeserving kidnapper and nothing is owed satan and God is powerful enough to just safely take anything from satan?
 
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Monna

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Since God forgave 100% there is nothing left to "pay", but a huge unbelievable ransom was paid. To whom was the ransom paid to since God is not an undeserving kidnapper and nothing is owed satan and God is powerful enough to just safely take anything from satan?

There are probably mysteries here that we will never understand let alone be able to describe within the context of our current culturally determined perspectives.

But:---
1. We were spiritually DEAD from the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They ate of the tree of "death" (the tree was called the Tree of the Knowldedge of Good and Evil, but the fruit was death!). They were told explicitly by God that this would happen. They chose to "eat" of the fruit anyway, and subjected themselves to the king of death. That we were/are dead spiritually from physical conception seems to escape people. But this is the whole point of Jesus discussion with Nicodemus (John 3).

2. Redemption in today's western world might be best understood as something that happens at the pawn shop, when you "buy back" something that is "yours" but which you pawned for some immediate need. Or in some countries, when shopping with coupons that are "redeemed." But in many places through time, redemption was related also to "buying" or "buying back" rights and even people. Slaves could in some cases buy/redeem their freedom. Read Ruth chapter 4 to see a well-described example of redemption in OT times. It involved a piece of land that belonged to a relative (who had died) leaving no male heir. But in redeeming the land, the man's wife came with the land. So, though we as part of all of God's creation, were and are HIS by creation, we pawned ourselves to Satan. God arranged to "buy us back" in effect paying the price for what we thought we were getting when we pawned ourselves.

3. You cannot defeat death by putting it off, by avoiding it. To defeat death, one has to die, then break out to life again. Jesus did that. And in defeating death, he destroyed the power of death over anyone who wishes to be free of it - to walk out of the pawn shop with the life that Jesus has made available to those who believe him/in him.

4. Agreements in biblical tmes, and still in many places today, are sealed with some kind of blood-letting. The covenant that God made with Abraham about his descendants being God's own people, and inheriting the land, etc. was sealed with the blood of circumcision. The agreement (or covenant) that God made with Moses and the people at Horeb, when the Law was given, was also sealed (repeatedly) by blood sacrifies. The agreement God has made with "the world," that is, everyone who believes that God sent Jesus to reveal Himself and follows him, is sealed with the sacrificial blood of Jesus - worth far more than the blood of "bulls and sheep." Jesus offered himself (and his blood) as a sacrifice to seal the agreement - the "new covenant."
 
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bling

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1. We were spiritually DEAD from the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They ate of the tree of "death" (the tree was called the Tree of the Knowldedge of Good and Evil, but the fruit was death!). They were told explicitly by God that this would happen. They chose to "eat" of the fruit anyway, and subjected themselves to the king of death. That we were/are dead spiritually from physical conception seems to escape people. But this is the whole point of Jesus discussion with Nicodemus (John 3).
Adam and Eve’s sin gave us lots of curses which really turned out to helping us fulfill our earthly objective and we gained knowledge, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

Is death bad in and of itself?

Tell me this: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was totally dependent on your personal ability to obey (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent only on your willingness to accept God’s charity (where you are now).

When we sin, we are dead spiritually and all mature adults sin, but does that not also help us fulfill our earthly objective?

By Christ’s definition of “dead” you can still do unrighteous selfish stuff, since Christ describes the prodigal son twice as being “dead”, yet while spiritually dead the prodigal son could come to his senses and chose for selfish reasons to turn to his father.

Nicodemus in John 3 is another subject.
2. Redemption in today's western world might be best understood as something that happens at the pawn shop, when you "buy back" something that is "yours" but which you pawned for some immediate need. Or in some countries, when shopping with coupons that are "redeemed." But in many places through time, redemption was related also to "buying" or "buying back" rights and even people. Slaves could in some cases buy/redeem their freedom. Read Ruth chapter 4 to see a well-described example of redemption in OT times. It involved a piece of land that belonged to a relative (who had died) leaving no male heir. But in redeeming the land, the man's wife came with the land. So, though we as part of all of God's creation, were and are HIS by creation, we pawned ourselves to Satan. God arranged to "buy us back" in effect paying the price for what we thought we were getting when we pawned ourselves.
Christ is not talking about make a small reasonable payment for some slave, but an unbelievable huge ransom payment for someone kidnapped (the first century person would have understood a king’s ransom and this is bigger than that for them).

We give ourselves over to satan, where does it say satan paid for us?

Are you suggesting this unbelievable huge ransom payment is made to satan? Why would God owe satan anything? Does God lack the power to safely take anything from satan?
3. You cannot defeat death by putting it off, by avoiding it. To defeat death, one has to die, then break out to life again. Jesus did that. And in defeating death, he destroyed the power of death over anyone who wishes to be free of it - to walk out of the pawn shop with the life that Jesus has made available to those who believe him/in him.
We still die physically and spiritually (sin), but the sting of physical death has been removed, by our being eternal beings and the burden of spiritual death has been removed by God’s forgiveness and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
4. Agreements in biblical tmes, and still in many places today, are sealed with some kind of blood-letting. The covenant that God made with Abraham about his descendants being God's own people, and inheriting the land, etc. was sealed with the blood of circumcision. The agreement (or covenant) that God made with Moses and the people at Horeb, when the Law was given, was also sealed (repeatedly) by blood sacrifies. The agreement God has made with "the world," that is, everyone who believes that God sent Jesus to reveal Himself and follows him, is sealed with the sacrificial blood of Jesus - worth far more than the blood of "bulls and sheep." Jesus offered himself (and his blood) as a sacrifice to seal the agreement - the "new covenant."
Blood is definitely used for cleansing. The “seal” we have is the Holy Spirit, but I do not see “blood” being a seal? Circumcision is a seal, but not the “blood” of circumcision?
 
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Monna

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Blood is definitely used for cleansing. The “seal” we have is the Holy Spirit, but I do not see “blood” being a seal? Circumcision is a seal, but not the “blood” of circumcision?

You can't have circumcision without blood.
Blood is definitely used for cleansing. The “seal” we have is the Holy Spirit, but I do not see “blood” being a seal?
The Spirit is our guarantee. WE are sealed by the Spirit:
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Adam and Eve’s sin gave us lots of curses which really turned out to helping us fulfill our earthly objective and we gained knowledge, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

It is not all kinds of knowledge... It was explicitly the "knowledge of good and evil." I ask myself the same question you asked ... how is that bad - especially as it was/is a quality that God Himself had? (Genesis 3:22). When Solomon asked for "a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong" God was pleased. And many passages in the NT urge believers to become discerning So there must have been another element in Adam and Eve's situation that lay behind the prohibition to eat the fruit of that tree. Some have suggested it was a matter of time and maturity. Who knows for sure? Their sin was not in wanting the knowledge of good and evil, but rather in doubting God's intentions and disobeying his command, ignoring his warning, and submitting to a serpent - as it appeared to them - over which they had been given dominion. In the context of two trees, one explicitly called the Tree of Life, and the other whose fruit was death, they chose the tree whose fruit was death, against the warning, advice, and command of God.
Another way of looking at it is that an "immature" knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, leads to absolutist decisions of what it "right" and what is "wrong" - i.e. the LAW. The correct understanding and application of the (spirit of the) law is good, but the literal imposition of the letter of the law leads to death (see Romans).

Blood is definitely used for cleansing.

Yes, but note what Hebrews 9: 18-20 says: "This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, ‘This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.' " This blood is not the same blood used in various other sacrifices for sins, for guilt, etc etc. It is blood sprinkled on the document itself, like the "insignia" or the "seal" of an authority.

And in Hebrews 10:29 "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? " In Jesus case, his blood is both the blood of the covenant, and equivalent to all the other blood sacrifices in the Old Covenant that were intended to appease and cleanse (even to give thanks!).

It is in this sense that the covenant, as a covenant, requires blood to be spillt to come into effect. Instead of being a written contract that is "signed and sealed" (I.e. stamped with a Seal that confirms the authority and right of the signer to sign) by the very blood (life) of Christ, to whom the Father had given all authority in heaven and on earth and under the earth. It wasn't a fake signature - it was "signed and sealed" in blood that bears the "DNA" of the Son of God.
 
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