Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

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klutedavid

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If Partial Preterism, in regards to the Discourse, means events having to do with things post the ascension up until the 2nd advent, and what happens after the 2nd advent, then I agree with you.
That is what Partial Preterism advocates.
But if Partial Preterism, in regards to the Discourse, means events only having to do with things in the first century, I would then disagree with you.
That is Preterism not Partial Preterism.
Partial means just some events took place in the first century whereas Preterism is all the events took place in the first century.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The worst is Jesus Christ of Nazareth already came and we are living on the new earth. But his is also hyper Preterism where EVERYTHING is fulfilled. A rare view.

OK then, please answer these simple questions:

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 37-43 continues, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ tells us in John 12:48, He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Romans 8:19-23: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

2 Peter 3:10-13 couldn't be clearer: the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?
 
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sovereigngrace

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That is what Partial Preterism advocates.That is Preterism not Partial Preterism.
Partial means just some events took place in the first century whereas Preterism is all the events took place in the first century.

When does the following occur?
  • The old covenant end.
  • The new covenant commence.
  • This age end.
  • The age to come start.
  • The last days finish.
  • The last day of the last days occur.
  • The day of redemption happen.
  • The coming of the Lord arrive.
  • The resurrection of the just and the unjust happen.
  • The judgment of the just and the unjust happen.
  • The old corrupt heavens and earth being replaced.
  • The new heavens and new earth appear.
 
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sovereigngrace

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  • They have “the day of redemption” happening in AD70.
  • Jesus did this for us on the cross the day of His death.

Romans 8:19-23 was written after the cross, and predicted: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Ephesians 1:13-14 was written after the cross, and predicted: ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Ephesians 4:30 was written after the cross, and predicted: ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
'
This can't be referring to Daniel 7 though. In Daniel 7 the order of events were as follows---coming in the clouds of heaven---followed by then sitting on the right hand of power.

In the Mark 14:62 He is seen coming in the clouds of heaven after having already been sitting on the right hand of power.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The same with this one as well.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven---this is meaning because of the following---he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight(Acts 1:9).

and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him---this results in Him then sitting on the right hand of power.

Both Mark 14:62 and Matthew 26:64 have Jesus already sitting on the right hand of power, followed by Him coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I would then think Matthew 24:30---and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory----explains both Mark 14:62 and Matthew 26:64---and coming in the clouds of heaven.
HI I note your take on Dan 7 and you have it wrong in my opinion. Psalm 2 has the Lord sitting at the right hand while the leaders of the nations take counsel together against the LORD and his anointed. The Lord is going to inherit the nations from heaven and the ends of the earth as a possession. Look at all the other passages when the kingdom that has no end comes and is establish and it does not match your view of Dan 7. Dan 2 shows the stone cut without hands descending and destroying the image of mans kingdoms and leaving no trace of them while the stone becomes a mountain the is a kingdom that covers the earth. Zech 14 shows the day the kingdom comes and shows life continuing on earth after the LORD is king over all the earth. This day the LORD comes when Jeruslalem is being overrun and half the city is in captivity and the LORD comes with His saints and fights and melts His enemies and saves Israel. The LORD is king over all the earth on this day. The Mt of Olives splits in two and a new river flows year round. The nations which are left must now keep the feast of tabernacle or they get no rain. This is the day the stone without hands comes and no trace will be left of mans kingdoms. The son of man is the same as the LORD and in that day they will say the LORD is one. The salvation of Israel National Israel has hundreds of verses to back it up. Jesus at this time takes the throne of David and like Joseph revealing himself to his brothers Jesus is revealed to Israel. All scripture is integrated together and some events have a foreshadowing and yet are not fulfilled as John the Baptist was Elijah and yet Elijah is still to come.
The futurist position in this thread is largely dismissed and yet the 3rd temple which is mandatory for the abomination of desolation to happen is now a very current event at the time when wars and rumors of wars are going on and the nations are calling for peace and safety. When Israel gets the 3rd temple is will be the stage for the man of sin to be revealed. Those who dismiss futurism do so when the very specific details required for this view are lining up right now. The book of Hosea notes the return of the kingdom comes after Israel has gone many days without a sacrifice or king and the return of the sacrifice is a key sign.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The futurist position in this thread is largely dismissed and yet the 3rd temple which is mandatory for the abomination of desolation to happen is now a very current event at the time when wars and rumors of wars are going on and the nations are calling for peace and safety. When Israel gets the 3rd temple is will be the stage for the man of sin to be revealed. Those who dismiss futurism do so when the very specific details required for this view are lining up right now.

For what purpose? Why would they need it? There was a reason the curtain was ripped in two. There was a reason the temple was destroyed in AD70. The temple has been rendered redundant. It has been replaced by a better temple.

The Jews at the time of Christ, being ignorant and earthly minded, interpreted this statement to mean: He would destroy and rebuild the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The reading records, “Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?”

However, the next verse exposed their blindness, saying, But he spake of the temple of his body (v 21).

Christ spiritualizes the temple here. None could surely dispute this. There were 2 different mindsets in this picture. Christ’s heavenly mind-set presenting the introduction of the new covenant in the form of Himself and the Jews carnal earthly mind-set hankering towards an old inadequate system.

Christ also declared during His ministry, whilst standing in the actual temple, “I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple” (Matthew 12:6). However, the Jews in the main had No comprehension of that glorious statement. To this spiritual Temple would the nations finally find mercy, thus, fulfilling perfectly what the old temple couldn’t. And thus, through Himself (the living Temple), fulfilling Isaiah 2:2 that all nations shall flow unto it.”

Granted, the temple was central to the Jewish faith. For anyone to intimate in any way that it would be destroyed was viewed as nothing short of blasphemy. However, Christ was redirecting their eyes from the old temporal building – which was an imperfect shadow and type of Himself – and pointing them towards the new all-sufficient eternal temple – in the form of His person. Through His impending death, the temporal temple and its ceremonies would be done away with.

Hebrews 9:11 directly rebukes those who look to an earthly carnal building in modern Israel. It explicitly states, “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.”

This is God’s perfect temple today – and it is eternal. This building will never fall, be replaced or share a central place with another.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jesus said "This generation". Not, the next generation or a future generation! How simple is that?

Some people take the bible literally when they see fit and dont when it goes against what they 'think' scripture is saying.

Revelation 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

Not millenia away!

Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They try and use them to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth. But a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture.

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches” or “draws nigh.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

2 Peter 3:3-9 powerfully illustrates this: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness.”

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that has already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be caught unexpected when the judgment arrives suddenly. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole emphasis of this passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

Peter warns these “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

In fact, Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).
 
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DavidPT

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HI I note your take on Dan 7 and you have it wrong in my opinion. Psalm 2 has the Lord sitting at the right hand while the leaders of the nations take counsel together against the LORD and his anointed. The Lord is going to inherit the nations from heaven and the ends of the earth as a possession. Look at all the other passages when the kingdom that has no end comes and is establish and it does not match your view of Dan 7.


In my view I tend to take Daniel 7:13-14 as parenthetical, thus the timing is not the same timing as Daniel 7:9-12, where I take those verses to be involving what takes place post the 2nd coming. Daniel 7:13-14---one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---this cannot be meaning a future event. Yet it obviously also involves the future. So when I say this cannot be a future event, I'm meaning the part about coming in the clouds of heaven, and being brought before the Ancient of days, then given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---that this has already been fulfilled at the ascension some 2000 years ago.

The following parable, for one, proves it in my opinion.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

According to verse 15, when He returns He has already received the kingdom. So when and where did He initially receive it? Does not Daniel 7:13-14 tell us the when and where?


Notice in Daniel 7:13-14, that when He is seen coming in the clouds of heaven, He is not yet in possession of glory, but is given glory after having arrived. Arrived where? How can it not be heaven? The fact He is in heaven now, He does not need to arrive in the future to some place He already is. That does not make sense. This alone should prove this is not a future event still. His next destination will be the earth, yet Daniel 7:13-14 is not even meaning on the earth when He initially is brought before the Ancient of days, then given glory and a kingdom.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As can be seen here, He is seen arriving already in possession of power and great glory, while in Daniel 7:13-14 He does not arrive already in possession of those things.


Other than Daniel 7:13-14, I'm guessing you and I are likely on the same page about most of the rest of that chapter, if not all of the rest of it.
 
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Lost4words

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Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They try and use them to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth. But a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture.

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches” or “draws nigh.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

2 Peter 3:3-9 powerfully illustrates this: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness.”

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that has already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His Coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be caught unexpected when the judgment arrives suddenly. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole emphasis of this passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

Peter warns these “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s Coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

In fact, Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).

Lol at you thinking only 'you' are correct!

Its 'your' interpretation, opinion of what scripture is saying.

You need to study it more thoroughly to see that 'your' view is indeed incorrect.

God bless you my friend
 
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Erik Nelson

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Beast defeats Babylon at Armageddon. Symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire, defeating apostate Jerusalem. In seventy AD.

Beast survives for 10 more horns, symbolizing the 10 Christian-Persecuting Emperors. Of the Pagan Empire, from Domitian and Decius to Diocletian and Julian the apostate.

Conquering Christ figure defeats the beast symbolizes the church as the body of Christ on Earth spiritually overcoming the Pagan Empire under Constantine in the fourth century AD.

The Millennium Symbolizes the 1000 year long Byzantine Empire of Emperor Constantine's Constantinople.

The little time of gog and Magog. Symbolizes. The modern era from the fall of Constantinople (and the sack of Rome) circa 1500 until today.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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For what purpose? Why would they need it? There was a reason the curtain was ripped in two. There was a reason the temple was destroyed in AD70. The temple has been rendered redundant. It has been replaced by a better temple.

The Jews at the time of Christ, being ignorant and earthly minded, interpreted this statement to mean: He would destroy and rebuild the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The reading records, “Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?”

However, the next verse exposed their blindness, saying, But he spake of the temple of his body (v 21).

Christ spiritualizes the temple here. None could surely dispute this. There were 2 different mindsets in this picture. Christ’s heavenly mind-set presenting the introduction of the new covenant in the form of Himself and the Jews carnal earthly mind-set hankering towards an old inadequate system.

Christ also declared during His ministry, whilst standing in the actual temple, “I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple” (Matthew 12:6). However, the Jews in the main had No comprehension of that glorious statement. To this spiritual Temple would the nations finally find mercy, thus, fulfilling perfectly what the old temple couldn’t. And thus, through Himself (the living Temple), fulfilling Isaiah 2:2 that all nations shall flow unto it.”

Granted, the temple was central to the Jewish faith. For anyone to intimate in any way that it would be destroyed was viewed as nothing short of blasphemy. However, Christ was redirecting their eyes from the old temporal building – which was an imperfect shadow and type of Himself – and pointing them towards the new all-sufficient eternal temple – in the form of His person. Through His impending death, the temporal temple and its ceremonies would be done away with.

Hebrews 9:11 directly rebukes those who look to an earthly carnal building in modern Israel. It explicitly states, “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.”

This is God’s perfect temple today – and it is eternal. This building will never fall, be replaced or share a central place with another.
Hi the saying you are throwing the baby out with the bath water comes to mind when reading your position. There are some very true ideas you have expressed and those true ideas have been used to bring you to some conclusions that are not congruent with the rest of Bible prophecy.
In my view I tend to take Daniel 7:13-14 as parenthetical, thus the timing is not the same timing as Daniel 7:9-12, where I take those verses to be involving what takes place post the 2nd coming. Daniel 7:13-14---one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---this cannot be meaning a future event. Yet it obviously also involves the future. So when I say this cannot be a future event, I'm meaning the part about coming in the clouds of heaven, and being brought before the Ancient of days, then given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---that this has already been fulfilled at the ascension some 2000 years ago.

The following parable, for one, proves it in my opinion.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

According to verse 15, when He returns He has already received the kingdom. So when and where did He initially receive it? Does not Daniel 7:13-14 tell us the when and where?


Notice in Daniel 7:13-14, that when He is seen coming in the clouds of heaven, He is not yet in possession of glory, but is given glory after having arrived. Arrived where? How can it not be heaven? The fact He is in heaven now, He does not need to arrive in the future to some place He already is. That does not make sense. This alone should prove this is not a future event still. His next destination will be the earth, yet Daniel 7:13-14 is not even meaning on the earth when He initially is brought before the Ancient of days, then given glory and a kingdom.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As can be seen here, He is seen arriving already in possession of power and great glory, while in Daniel 7:13-14 He does not arrive already in possession of those things.


Other than Daniel 7:13-14, I'm guessing you and I are likely on the same page about most of the rest of that chapter, if not all of the rest of it.
Hi when you
In my view I tend to take Daniel 7:13-14 as parenthetical, thus the timing is not the same timing as Daniel 7:9-12, where I take those verses to be involving what takes place post the 2nd coming. Daniel 7:13-14---one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---this cannot be meaning a future event. Yet it obviously also involves the future. So when I say this cannot be a future event, I'm meaning the part about coming in the clouds of heaven, and being brought before the Ancient of days, then given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---that this has already been fulfilled at the ascension some 2000 years ago.

The following parable, for one, proves it in my opinion.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

According to verse 15, when He returns He has already received the kingdom. So when and where did He initially receive it? Does not Daniel 7:13-14 tell us the when and where?


Notice in Daniel 7:13-14, that when He is seen coming in the clouds of heaven, He is not yet in possession of glory, but is given glory after having arrived. Arrived where? How can it not be heaven? The fact He is in heaven now, He does not need to arrive in the future to some place He already is. That does not make sense. This alone should prove this is not a future event still. His next destination will be the earth, yet Daniel 7:13-14 is not even meaning on the earth when He initially is brought before the Ancient of days, then given glory and a kingdom.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As can be seen here, He is seen arriving already in possession of power and great glory, while in Daniel 7:13-14 He does not arrive already in possession of those things.


Other than Daniel 7:13-14, I'm guessing you and I are likely on the same page about most of the rest of that chapter, if not all of the rest of it.
HI David thank for the reply. I note in Dan 7 a few things that convince me this is referring to the same guy and events related in Rev and 2 Thess 2 the man of sin and the beast. In Rev we see the beast after receiving power over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months causes all to worship the dragon and the false prophet forces everyone to receive the mark, image or name of the beast. The 42 month of time would match the Dan 9 middle of the 70th week being when the sacrifice is stopped. In Dan 7 we see the pompous one is persecuting the same was the beast is and he is destroyed when the kingdom is give to the son of man. This pompous guy has a time times and half a time left. This would also be 3 1/2 years or 42 months. In Dan 7 it says this which is exactly what happens to the beast in Rev. 1 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
Note that the beasts have lost their dominion but have their lives extended for a season and a time. I consider this to be Satan who claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the world who offered them to Jesus if He would worship Satan and said all these kingdoms have been delivered to me and I can give them to whom I wish. In Rev we see the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and he shall forever and ever. This is when Jesus comes and Satan is bound for 1000 years . He has lost dominion and never will get it back. His life and apparently the lives of the other beasts in Dan 7 are prolonged for the season of the 1000 years and released for the time of great temptation at the end of the 1000 years. The end of the age has two distinct endings one where Jesus is treading the winepress of his wrath and at Armegeddon where the blood will be to the horses bridal. Where in Zech 14 Jerusalem is being overrun when the LORD comes and half the city is taken. At the end of the 1000 years when released Satan is allowed to tempt and gathers and army which surrounds the city and is destroyed when fire comes down from heaven and that is it. Two completely serparate events separated by a kingdom age. In Rev 12 we see the dragon after the seed of the woman and again the term a time times and half a time comes up. No doubt Dan 7 is talking about the days of the 2nd coming. Psalm 2 shows the LORD saying to Davids Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[fn] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ 
I believe this is where we are at now.
I see Zech 14 as very important and in that the LORD is king over all the earth. Life continues as how can a river flow year round and new valleys be formed if that is it? The nations that are left meaning some do not make it must now keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. Egypt is singled out for this so not an allegory. I see this as when as Mary was promised by Gabriel who also delivered Dan 9 interpretation to Daniel said that Jesus would sit on the throne of David.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Oh, this was an error on my part. The wording was not clear.

Why can PP not feel free express what they see for themselves, and what the rest of us clearly see? It was OK to articulate what you believe, even if it isn't what mkgal believes. She is not the Holy Spirit!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi the saying you are throwing the baby out with the bath water comes to mind when reading your position. There are some very true ideas you have expressed and those true ideas have been used to bring you to some conclusions that are not congruent with the rest of Bible prophecy.

I will take it you have no rebuttal.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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For what purpose? Why would they need it? There was a reason the curtain was ripped in two. There was a reason the temple was destroyed in AD70. The temple has been rendered redundant. It has been replaced by a better temple.

The Jews at the time of Christ, being ignorant and earthly minded, interpreted this statement to mean: He would destroy and rebuild the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The reading records, “Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?”

However, the next verse exposed their blindness, saying, But he spake of the temple of his body (v 21).

Christ spiritualizes the temple here. None could surely dispute this. There were 2 different mindsets in this picture. Christ’s heavenly mind-set presenting the introduction of the new covenant in the form of Himself and the Jews carnal earthly mind-set hankering towards an old inadequate system.

Christ also declared during His ministry, whilst standing in the actual temple, “I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple” (Matthew 12:6). However, the Jews in the main had No comprehension of that glorious statement. To this spiritual Temple would the nations finally find mercy, thus, fulfilling perfectly what the old temple couldn’t. And thus, through Himself (the living Temple), fulfilling Isaiah 2:2 that all nations shall flow unto it.”

Granted, the temple was central to the Jewish faith. For anyone to intimate in any way that it would be destroyed was viewed as nothing short of blasphemy. However, Christ was redirecting their eyes from the old temporal building – which was an imperfect shadow and type of Himself – and pointing them towards the new all-sufficient eternal temple – in the form of His person. Through His impending death, the temporal temple and its ceremonies would be done away with.

Hebrews 9:11 directly rebukes those who look to an earthly carnal building in modern Israel. It explicitly states, “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.”

This is God’s perfect temple today – and it is eternal. This building will never fall, be replaced or share a central place with another.
Hi on the railroad there are parallel tracks and the things you note about the new covenant and Jesus body being a spiritual temple are all very true and I believe both. In fact the new covenant no one was ever saved apart from it. If you think about it Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Yet Abraham died and was in the grave with Lazarus in a place of comfort as Jesus told. In Rev we see all those in heaven singing worthy is the lamb and note who has redeemed us by his blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. So the new covenant made is Jesus blood was instituted at that time.
When you get to the promise of the new covenant found in Jer 31 it follows Jer 30 talking about the days of Jacob's trouble and being saved out of it. When we get to chapter 31 we also see the verses immediately following the promise of the new covenant should stand out as to why they are placed here and what is it saying.
5 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Now Jesus certainly predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus announced He was instituting the new covenant. Yet right here in Jer God knowing the future affirms two things that Israel will not cease to be a nation and God will not cast them off for all they have done. Now we are seeing the second rail on the track that has nothing to do with the rail you have hung your hat on it. If you finish the chapter there is another very odd prophecy.

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now for the city to be rebuilt it would have to be largely destroyed. Note at the time it is rebuilt there is a whole valley of dead bodies so this can in no way be New Jerusalem. Note again this city is being built for the LORD and is now Holy to the LORD. If you read Zech 14 and see the day the LORD is king over the earth Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD will slay many that day and in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is why this is all happening again. Like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers Jesus is received by Israel and they know He is the LORD.
Lets look again at Jer 31 the new covenant, 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

Note the covenant being replaced is the one made with them when they were taken out of Egypt. This is the one being replaced. The covenant with Abraham is unconditional and has two main clauses. One Abraham and his descendants will inherit the promised land. Two in Abraham's seed Jesus all the nations would be blessed.

In luke 1
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Now we see what Jesus will accomplish through the tribulation and perform this exact deliverance to Israel and from that time on they will be Holy having been born again Dan 7 and Rev show the same thing. Hosea says where it was said you are not my people you shall be called the sons of the living God. Jesus told Israel you will see me no more until you will say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD. Jesus said He came in His fathers name and was rejected and warned if another comes in His own name him you will receive. The 3rd temple will be for the man of sin to be revealed in and the abomination of desolation to occur in. The fact that plans for this temple and the world is following this script to unite one world government are strong evidence this view is correct.
 
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mkgal1

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It was OK to articulate what you believe, even if it isn't what mkgal believes. She is not the Holy Spirit!
What in the world!? I'm certain Maria was not even coming close to mistaking me for the Holy Spirit.
 
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Hi on the railroad there are parallel tracks and the things you note about the new covenant and Jesus body being a spiritual temple are all very true and I believe both. In fact the new covenant no one was ever saved apart from it. If you think about it Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Yet Abraham died and was in the grave with Lazarus in a place of comfort as Jesus told. In Rev we see all those in heaven singing worthy is the lamb and note who has redeemed us by his blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. So the new covenant made is Jesus blood was instituted at that time.
When you get to the promise of the new covenant found in Jer 31 it follows Jer 30 talking about the days of Jacob's trouble and being saved out of it. When we get to chapter 31 we also see the verses immediately following the promise of the new covenant should stand out as to why they are placed here and what is it saying.
5 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Now Jesus certainly predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus announced He was instituting the new covenant. Yet right here in Jer God knowing the future affirms two things that Israel will not cease to be a nation and God will not cast them off for all they have done. Now we are seeing the second rail on the track that has nothing to do with the rail you have hung your hat on it. If you finish the chapter there is another very odd prophecy.

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now for the city to be rebuilt it would have to be largely destroyed. Note at the time it is rebuilt there is a whole valley of dead bodies so this can in no way be New Jerusalem. Note again this city is being built for the LORD and is now Holy to the LORD. If you read Zech 14 and see the day the LORD is king over the earth Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD will slay many that day and in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is why this is all happening again. Like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers Jesus is received by Israel and they know He is the LORD.
Lets look again at Jer 31 the new covenant, 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

Note the covenant being replaced is the one made with them when they were taken out of Egypt. This is the one being replaced. The covenant with Abraham is unconditional and has two main clauses. One Abraham and his descendants will inherit the promised land. Two in Abraham's seed Jesus all the nations would be blessed.

In luke 1
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Now we see what Jesus will accomplish through the tribulation and perform this exact deliverance to Israel and from that time on they will be Holy having been born again Dan 7 and Rev show the same thing. Hosea says where it was said you are not my people you shall be called the sons of the living God. Jesus told Israel you will see me no more until you will say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD. Jesus said He came in His fathers name and was rejected and warned if another comes in His own name him you will receive. The 3rd temple will be for the man of sin to be revealed in and the abomination of desolation to occur in. The fact that plans for this temple and the world is following this script to unite one world government are strong evidence this view is correct.

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD."

Jeremiah 51:1: Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

The day of trouble that is being highlighted happened long ago in the old covenant period. It does not relate to some supposed future period after Christ returns and saves Israel. Whoever is not saved when Jesus comes is immediately and eternally destroyed.

Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi on the railroad there are parallel tracks and the things you note about the new covenant and Jesus body being a spiritual temple are all very true and I believe both. In fact the new covenant no one was ever saved apart from it. If you think about it Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Yet Abraham died and was in the grave with Lazarus in a place of comfort as Jesus told. In Rev we see all those in heaven singing worthy is the lamb and note who has redeemed us by his blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. So the new covenant made is Jesus blood was instituted at that time.
When you get to the promise of the new covenant found in Jer 31 it follows Jer 30 talking about the days of Jacob's trouble and being saved out of it. When we get to chapter 31 we also see the verses immediately following the promise of the new covenant should stand out as to why they are placed here and what is it saying.
5 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Now Jesus certainly predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus announced He was instituting the new covenant. Yet right here in Jer God knowing the future affirms two things that Israel will not cease to be a nation and God will not cast them off for all they have done. Now we are seeing the second rail on the track that has nothing to do with the rail you have hung your hat on it. If you finish the chapter there is another very odd prophecy.

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now for the city to be rebuilt it would have to be largely destroyed. Note at the time it is rebuilt there is a whole valley of dead bodies so this can in no way be New Jerusalem. Note again this city is being built for the LORD and is now Holy to the LORD. If you read Zech 14 and see the day the LORD is king over the earth Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD will slay many that day and in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is why this is all happening again. Like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers Jesus is received by Israel and they know He is the LORD.
Lets look again at Jer 31 the new covenant, 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

Note the covenant being replaced is the one made with them when they were taken out of Egypt. This is the one being replaced. The covenant with Abraham is unconditional and has two main clauses. One Abraham and his descendants will inherit the promised land. Two in Abraham's seed Jesus all the nations would be blessed.

In luke 1
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Now we see what Jesus will accomplish through the tribulation and perform this exact deliverance to Israel and from that time on they will be Holy having been born again Dan 7 and Rev show the same thing. Hosea says where it was said you are not my people you shall be called the sons of the living God. Jesus told Israel you will see me no more until you will say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD. Jesus said He came in His fathers name and was rejected and warned if another comes in His own name him you will receive. The 3rd temple will be for the man of sin to be revealed in and the abomination of desolation to occur in. The fact that plans for this temple and the world is following this script to unite one world government are strong evidence this view is correct.

What would be the purpose of a 3rd temple? Why would Israel need it?
 
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DavidPT

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HI David thank for the reply. I note in Dan 7 a few things that convince me this is referring to the same guy and events related in Rev and 2 Thess 2 the man of sin and the beast. In Rev we see the beast after receiving power over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months causes all to worship the dragon and the false prophet forces everyone to receive the mark, image or name of the beast. The 42 month of time would match the Dan 9 middle of the 70th week being when the sacrifice is stopped. In Dan 7 we see the pompous one is persecuting the same was the beast is and he is destroyed when the kingdom is give to the son of man. This pompous guy has a time times and half a time left. This would also be 3 1/2 years or 42 months. In Dan 7 it says this which is exactly what happens to the beast in Rev. 1 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
Note that the beasts have lost their dominion but have their lives extended for a season and a time. I consider this to be Satan who claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the world who offered them to Jesus if He would worship Satan and said all these kingdoms have been delivered to me and I can give them to whom I wish. In Rev we see the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and he shall forever and ever. This is when Jesus comes and Satan is bound for 1000 years . He has lost dominion and never will get it back. His life and apparently the lives of the other beasts in Dan 7 are prolonged for the season of the 1000 years and released for the time of great temptation at the end of the 1000 years. The end of the age has two distinct endings one where Jesus is treading the winepress of his wrath and at Armegeddon where the blood will be to the horses bridal. Where in Zech 14 Jerusalem is being overrun when the LORD comes and half the city is taken. At the end of the 1000 years when released Satan is allowed to tempt and gathers and army which surrounds the city and is destroyed when fire comes down from heaven and that is it. Two completely serparate events separated by a kingdom age. In Rev 12 we see the dragon after the seed of the woman and again the term a time times and half a time comes up. No doubt Dan 7 is talking about the days of the 2nd coming. Psalm 2 shows the LORD saying to Davids Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[fn] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ 
I believe this is where we are at now.
I see Zech 14 as very important and in that the LORD is king over all the earth. Life continues as how can a river flow year round and new valleys be formed if that is it? The nations that are left meaning some do not make it must now keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. Egypt is singled out for this so not an allegory. I see this as when as Mary was promised by Gabriel who also delivered Dan 9 interpretation to Daniel said that Jesus would sit on the throne of David.


Brian, your post here proves what I suspected, that you and I were likely on the same page about the rest of Daniel 7. Not only are we on the same page about that, we are also on the same page about the other things you mentioned as well. So pretty much everything in your post here, I basically see it the same, or at least close enough to call it the same.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Lol at you thinking only 'you' are correct!

Its 'your' interpretation, opinion of what scripture is saying.

You need to study it more thoroughly to see that 'your' view is indeed incorrect.

God bless you my friend

Is that your rebuttal? How about addressing the salient points.
 
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