The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

Al Touthentop said:

The prodigal is said to be dead. His relationship with his father was dead. Literally.

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Not literally. Figuratively. Get real, please.

What you demonstrate is a failure to discern between "relationship" and "fellowship", which seems to be a rather common error today.

The human relationship between parent and child is PERMANENT. It cannot be changed, altered, or ended.

However, "fellowship" refers to the state of the relationship, but NOT the relationship itself. Fellowship has to do with getting along, harmony, etc.

When that ends, the fellowship is gone. And Jesus used the words "dead" and "lost" to describe this loss of fellowship between father and son.

If you can't comprehend this, I'm sorry I can't be of further help. I think the problem is that your are so wrapped in your own agenda and bias for loss of salvation, that these concepts are just too foreign to grasp.

We can take this as a metaphor for something spiritual but the relationship was dead.

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No we can't. The only thing that died and was lost was fellowship between father and son.

The PROOF that the relationship was not dead is found in the FACT that Jesus continued to describe the prodigal as a "son". That relationship never ended.

I wouldn't call it that but 1 John is pretty descriptive as are all of the passages you keep claiming support your view. You don't believe the scripture. I get that.

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ACtually, you don't get too much. 1 John 1:8 describes YOU!! You claim to be without sin. That's the subject of that verse. "IF we claim to be without sin". That's how it starts. And it FITS you perfectly. That's what you claim.

And keep reading. What follows is HOW the Bible describes YOU:
1. deceiving yourself
2. no truth in you

There is most certainly a process. Or do you want to remove Romans 6 right out of the bible?

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Romans 6 isn't about salvation. It's about the choices believers face daily. Which is to whom to present themself to as slaves to obey (v.16).

There is a way to get "into Christ." Paul tells you how.

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And it isn't any "process" as you wrongly claim.

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Union with Christ is on the basis of believing in Him. That's no process. That's faith.

Now, would you like to try to argue that faith is a process?

It is your birth as a son that puts you into the kingdom or Christ.

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This isn't a process either.

Bible Highlighter said:

Notice how I did not ignore the verse you alluded to (i.e. Colossians 1:21), and I explained it using the context. So your assessment is not accurate. I have seen time and again Conditional Salvationists and or Free Will Libertarians (myself included) explain their opponents misunderstanding on Scripture. The verses we use go ignored or they are changed to say something that the text does not plainly say in the English. Those in Eternal Security ignore verses like John 10:27 when they read John 10:28 when they defend Eternal Security. They do not want to see that the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand are the kind of sheep the FOLLOW Jesus (John 10:27). One is not following Jesus if a person thinks they have a safety net to sin because Jesus paid for all their future sin. God tells us in His Word, "Choose this day in whom ye will serve." This make no sense if God is the One who makes that decision for us. When Jesus said, you did not choose me, but I chose you, this is simply saying that God is one step ahead of us. God chose all for salvation before the world began, but the problem is that not everyone's wants God and His good ways within their life. They want their best life now and kind of fit God into their life a little. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Belief Alone-ism leads to the opposite of that. Belief Alone-ism type Grace does not teach that we are to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. They do not even believe they can live godly until they die and go to Heaven.

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The scriptures can be used to support both views, that's why the Church is divided on this. Both sides hold fast to their view, we even had wars between denominations so I don't think anyone can use scriptures to convince their opponents.

We just have to agree to disagree, our pastor said that our knowledge of scriptures is not important to God. He saves people who have never studied the Bible at all, Jesus said that He would lose none of those which the Father gave Him before the foundation of the world.

I can't find any way to get around such verses in scripture, so I side with the predestination crowd.

Bible Highlighter said:

I don't believe this to be true at all. Sure, there are verses that suggest Eternal Security at first glance, but if we were to look at the context, they are not what Eternal Security Proponents make it out to be.



Good thing I believe in Jesus's teaching on Non-Resistance then. You have nothing to worry from me except the weapons of prayer and God's Word.



Your pastor should know that Hosea says God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Your pastor should know that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God." Your pastor should know that Jesus said the Pharisees that the reason why they wanted to kill him was because his words had no place within them.



For sure, when they first come to Christ. But they have to continue in His Word the Bible. 2 Timothy 2:15 says we are to study to show ourselves approved of by God.



You are combining two verses from different speakers. Jesus said he would lose nothing in John 6:39 and Paul said that he chosen us in Him since the foundation of the world in Ephesians 1:4.

Anyways, John 6:39 says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,..." (John 6:39).

Rick can say to Bob, "Hey, I should be over your house tomorrow, but I have a lot of work." Does this sound like Rick is coming over Bob's house as a guarantee or promise by Rick? No. The word "should" is in there, setting up a possibility and not a guarantee.



I can explain them for you. Or you can check for yourself on refutations of Calvinism online. You can see that the text is not really being honored in what it plainly says. At least that is how I see it anyways.

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Thanks for the reply, I guess it all comes down to how we interpret scripture.

My Catholic friends tell me their priest doesn't encourage them to read the Bible. He said that the worst thing the RCC ever did was give the Bible to the public, he said everyone went away and started new denominations and sects to conform to their own private interpretation.

I don't agree with the priest, but there is some truth to what he said.
Our pastor wasn't suggesting that we don't study the scriptures, he was just stating the fact that we are not saved by studying scripture.

There are just as many websites and scriptures supporting Calvinism as there are Arminianism. And there are great theologians on both sides, so the debate will continue long after we die.

Everyone has to take a side in this and I choose Calvinism as it makes more sense to me personally. I forgot to ask my pastor on Sunday, if our view on this effects our salvation. I will ask him this coming Sunday and let you know what he says.

The Bible teaches that God appoints shepherds to lead the flock, I've only been studying the Bible for the past couple of years. My Pastor has been studying it for the past 30 years, so we can learn a lot from people like them.

Dan1988 said:

Thanks for the reply, I guess it all comes down to how we interpret scripture.

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Unfortunately, many people come to Scripture with agendas and biases that are not biblical.

My Catholic friends tell me their priest doesn't encourage them to read the Bible. He said that the worst thing the RCC ever did was give the Bible to the public, he said everyone went away and started new denominations and sects to conform to their own private interpretation.

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No, the RCC didn't want people to know the truth. They were selling "indulgences" and making a ton of money.

I don't agree with the priest, but there is some truth to what he said.
Our pastor wasn't suggesting that we don't study the scriptures, he was just stating the fact that we are not saved by studying scripture.

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We are saved by believing the gospel. Which is found in the Scriptures.

There are just as many websites and scriptures supporting Calvinism as there are Arminianism.

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While there are many such websites, the only real issue is which ones are supported by Scripture. Both with claim that theirs does, but a Berean will be able to see through all the bias and agendas.

And there are great theologians on both sides, so the debate will continue long after we die.

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While that's true, it doesn't mean a truly open and honest person who seeks the truth and relies on the Holy Spirit (never mind everyone will claim that) won't find the truth.

And we must know that both sides cannot be right. At least one side, if not both, can be wrong, just as well.

Everyone has to take a side in this and I choose Calvinism as it makes more sense to me personally.

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I take the side of Scripture. And in so doing, I've found that both Calvinism and Arminianism have some deep flaws that are not supported by Scripture.

For example, the Bible teaches clearly that Jesus Christ died for everyone, which does not agree with Calvinism's 3rd point in TULIP. And the Bible teaches clearly that all who have believed possess eternal life and those given eternal life shall never perish, which does not agree with Arminianism.

And on and on.

I forgot to ask my pastor on Sunday, if our view on this effects our salvation. I will ask him this coming Sunday and let you know what he says.

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Nothing will affect one's salvation, if they are saved. That is permanent. However, one's understanding of Scripture CAN affect the success, or lack of success, in living the Christian life.

The Bible teaches that God appoints shepherds to lead the flock, I've only been studying the Bible for the past couple of years. My Pastor has been studying it for the past 30 years, so we can learn a lot from people like them.

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But didn't you just say that there are "great theologians" on both sides??

btw, there are more than 2 sides theologically.

FreeGrace2 said:

Unfortunately, many people come to Scripture with agendas and biases that are not biblical.


No, the RCC didn't want people to know the truth. They were selling "indulgences" and making a ton of money.


We are saved by believing the gospel. Which is found in the Scriptures.


While there are many such websites, the only real issue is which ones are supported by Scripture. Both with claim that theirs does, but a Berean will be able to see through all the bias and agendas.


While that's true, it doesn't mean a truly open and honest person who seeks the truth and relies on the Holy Spirit (never mind everyone will claim that) won't find the truth.

And we must know that both sides cannot be right. At least one side, if not both, can be wrong, just as well.


I take the side of Scripture. And in so doing, I've found that both Calvinism and Arminianism have some deep flaws that are not supported by Scripture.

For example, the Bible teaches clearly that Jesus Christ died for everyone, which does not agree with Calvinism's 3rd point in TULIP. And the Bible teaches clearly that all who have believed possess eternal life and those given eternal life shall never perish, which does not agree with Arminianism.

And on and on.


Nothing will affect one's salvation, if they are saved. That is permanent. However, one's understanding of Scripture CAN affect the success, or lack of success, in living the Christian life.


But didn't you just say that there are "great theologians" on both sides??

btw, there are more than 2 sides theologically.

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I spoke to the pastor regarding Calvinism and Arminianism. He said everyone has to take a side on this issue, nobody can sit on the fence.

He also said that, those who reject salvation by predestination are rejecting God's Word so they are not saved. He said that there are many scriptures, throughout the whole Bible which teach that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin.

He said, to deny this truth is to deny God's sovereignty over all creation. The Bible teaches that God predestined the whole of human history from the beginning to the end. God choose those He would save before He created the world, so it leaves no room for mans choice in salvation.

I can list around 50 Bible verses, which support Calvinism so anything that seems to contradict these scriptures has obviously been taken out of context.

Dan1988 said:

I spoke to the pastor regarding Calvinism and Arminianism. He said everyone has to take a side on this issue, nobody can sit on the fence.

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Did your pastor tell you that there are more than 2 sides? I have found biblical errors on both sides of that fence.

He also said that, those who reject salvation by predestination are rejecting God's Word so they are not saved.

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Salvation isn't determined on whether one believes in "salvation by predestination" and that's not the gospel. Does your pastor understand the issue of predestination?

Rom 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Predestination isn't even about salvation. It's about God predestining believers "to be conformed to the image of His Son".

Have you heard the phrase "be Christ-like"? Does your pastor know what that means? It means for the believer to become like Christ in their walk. That can only happen when the believer is in fellowship with the Lord (1 Jn 1:9), and filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). When filled with the Spirit, the believer will evidence the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23). Jesus, in His humanity, was filled with the Spirit. Everyting He did was by the power of the Spirit.

So, predestination is about believers growing up spiritually, being filled with the Spirit, and evidencing the fruit of the Spirit.

He said that there are many scriptures, throughout the whole Bible which teach that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin.

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This is true. However, don't fall for the claim that "chooses to save some" means He chooses who will believe. That's false.

1 Cor 1:21 tells us exactly WHO God chooses to save: believers.

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

There is no Scripture that teaches that God chooses who will believe, nor is there any Scripture that says that regeneration is necessary so the "chosen ones" will believe.

He said, to deny this truth is to deny God's sovereignty over all creation.

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As long as he is clear about the fact that God does not choose who will believe, and that regeneration does NOT precede salvation, he is correct.

The Bible teaches that God predestined the whole of human history from the beginning to the end.

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No it doesn't. But can you ask him for any such verse or verses that actually teach this?

God choose those He would save before He created the world, so it leaves no room for mans choice in salvation.

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God DID "choose those He would save before He created the world", a reference to Eph 1:4, so let's examine what it says.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The first thing we MUST understand is just who the "us" refers to. Well, Paul specifically defined the "us" later on in chapter 1.

1:19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

There it is; us who believe. Now, back to v.4-
"For He (God) chose us (believers) in Him (who ARE in Him, as all believers are in union with Christ-v.13,14) before the creation of the world (His plans obviously were in play way before He created the universe) to be holy and blameless in His sight."

The red words indicate the PURPOSE of God's choice, or election of believers here.

iow, believers are chosen "to be holy and blameless" in His sight. A reference to spiritual growth and Christ-likeness.

I know Calvinists take "to be holy and blameless" to be a refererence for salvation, but not so.

Eph 5-
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

The red words again speak to spiritual growth (to make her {the church} holy). The fact that Paul was referring to the "church" means he was writing about saved people. Not how people get saved.

I can list around 50 Bible verses, which support Calvinism so anything that seems to contradict these scriptures has obviously been taken out of context.

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No they don't. And I'll prove it here.

Please choose the very best verse that man is unable to believe apart from regeneration, which is basically the T in TULIP. Total depravity. I know that man cannot save himself, which is the true biblical doctrine of total depravity. But the Bible says that man "believes from the heart" in Rom 10. There are no verses that God is the cause of man's belief.

Please choose the very best verse that election is to salvation, the U in TULIP. I can provide way more than 50 verses that election is to service. And there are NO verses that say or indicate that election is to salvation.

Please choose the very best verse that Christ died only for the so-called elect, which is the L in TULIP, limited atonement. There are a handful of verses that specifically state that Christ died for all, or everyone.

Please choose the very best verse that teaches that grace is irresistible, which is the I in TULIP. Don't forget that Acts 7:51 says that men 'resist the Holy Spirit'.

Please choose the very best verse that teaches that all believers will persevere in the faith, which seems to be the P in TULIP. It used to mean "preservation" which is the same as eternal security, but these days, it seems the shift is toward perseverance.

1 Tim 4:1 tells us directly that some will "abandon the faith" in later times. The Greek word is where we get the word apostasy.

I've discussed apostasy with some Calvinists and they believe that anyone who apostatizes wasn't really saved in the first place. That is just dodging the reality of the verse.

And don't forget what Jesus taught in the parable of the soils.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

He was very clear that some who believe will cease to believe when "times of testing/temptation" comes.

Bible Highlighter said:

To all:

We are living in the last days, and men have a form of godliness, and they deny the power thereof; They are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

This is why a sin and still be saved type belief is so popular today.

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Excuse me, but Jesus was clear about eternal security. It's hardly popular today, given the numbers of Arminians out there.

Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28 He also taught that whoever believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life. So we know that the MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation, they HAVE eternal life.

So, the promise of never perishing is to believers and WHEN they believe, before any kind of lifestyle is lived.

If Jesus taught that conditions had to be met to those He gives eternal life, John 10:28 would have been the perfect verse to communicate that.

But He didn't. Salvation is NO strings attached. It is by grace through faith, and not of works.

No strings attached for saved people. Once given eternal life, they shall never perish.

Unfortunately, most Arminians wrongly assume that eternal security means a license to sin. What they fail to understand is the Bible's dire warnings about the consequences of sin; painful discipline, loss of blessings on this earth, and loss of reward in eternity.

Those who want to "reign with Christ" MUST endure. 2 Tim 2:12 This isn't about salvation, but about "sharing in His glory" by sharing in His sufferings (to endure). Rom 8:17b

No one gets away with anything, as the Arminians postulate, given eternal security.

2 Cor 5:10 says otherwise. What it doesn't say is that salvation can be lost.

Bible Highlighter said:

To all:

Do not be deceived by those who say that you will only lose Heavenly rewards for committing grievous sin while under God's grace.

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The REAL deception is to claim that salvation can be lost. Jesus taught that those who believe HAVE (as in POSSESSION) eternal life on the basis of believing in Him. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47. John taught the same thing in 1 John 5:11,13.

Jesus also taught that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish. John 10:28

Oh, and most churches today justify a sin and still be saved type belief.

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This is just another fallacy pushed by Arminians. No evangelical church today even try to "justify" any sin. That is absurd on its face.

Sin is dealt with very seriously in Scripture, but Arminians skip over that teaching or ignore it when it is presented.

Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is PAINFUL. iow, no picnic.

1 Cor 5:5 gives an example of God's discipline by turning the incestuous man "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh". Again, no picnic.

1 Cor 10 gives the example of the Exodus generation that died in the desert for their ongoing rebellion against the Lord.

1 Cor 11:30 lists the progression of God's discipline: weakness, sickness and physical death.

Acts 5:5 is another example of God's discipline of physical death to 2 believers who lied to the Holy Spirit.

They may try to cover this fact up by them teaching that one must live holy, but they really do not believe that.

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The Bible commands that believers "judge not, lest YOU be judged". Sir, your claim is nothing but an unsubstiated judgment. I DO believe that and have provided verses that say so. Why would I quote a verse if I didn't believe it.

btw, the same teaching of Jesus in John 10:28, that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, is also found in the writings of Peter.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

When a person believes in Christ for salvation, they are said to be born again. Here, Peter makes clear what that means.

The new birth is "not of perishable seed", but of IMPERISHABLE SEED.

So, for those who think salvation can be lost and a saved person go to hell, please explain how someone who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can perish.

Can you do that?

Those who believe that salvation can be lost have ignored or flatly rejected what Jesus taught about recipients of eternal life; that they shall NEVER perish.

They do not believe that. They have a "STRINGS ATTACHED" salvation. Which is nonsense and unbiblical.

Bible Highlighter said:

So God foreordains evil and sin? The Judgment is not really a judgment based upon man's works as Scripture says but it is merely a declaration of what God has made them to do? The love between a husband and wife is not really real by the fact that they chose each other of their own free will but it is because it was foreordained by God?

Also, Free will statements in regards to choosing God is all over the Bible. One has to do backflip twists with the Scriptures in order to make them say something else.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

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FreeGrace2 summed it all up much better than I ever could.
I have no doubt whatsoever, that I am saved and have eternal life in heaven.

I do sin everyday, but Christ paid for all my past, present and future sins so I don't have to fear judgement. I can be full of joy and happy, knowing that i will never lose my salvation.

I backslid many times over the past 10-11 years, I would leave the Church and go back into the world to satisfy all my lusts. Then after a while I'd come back and repent, sometimes it was a matter of moths and other times it was for several years.

I have seen others do the same and never come back to repentance, some have died in their sin. So I believe God drew me back to Himself every time, He made me see that the world cannot fulfill all of my desires.

I still struggle with besetting sins, but the Lord has been working on my heart and those lusts that had me enslaved have all but lost their power.

We will never achieve sinless perfection in this life, will will continue to fall into sin every day until we die.

I'm sorry to have to reject your advice, to rely on my own understanding of the scriptures. Logic tells us that those who know them better can teach us a lot that we don't understand. Why wouldn't I take advantage of 30 years of study. God actually appointed him as the shepherd, we are the sheep.

There are over 35,000 different interpretations of the Holy Scriptures. If a sheep leaves the flock and the shepherd and uses his own wisdom, he will quickly become a meal for the wolf. That's why God appoints shepherds to lead us sheep.