The fatal flaw of Universalism

Shrewd Manager said:

Yes, it's to do with rejection of the kingdom, because that's what the HS is here to help bring in. So, if you don't forgive others, how will you be forgiven etc? It's part of his well-known gospel teaching of right relationships, expressed in the 'aionion sense' ie it holds true for all times and places.

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"You are correct to note that there is no consensus on this. …" - lol

Shrewd Manager said:

Don't care. Faith is all that's required to fill the gaps. Just a little can move mountains, y'know.

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Actually love is required also my friend. If I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing.

Saint Steven said:

You are correct to note that there is no consensus on this. I would blame Cessationism. However, it was quite clear to me what he meant. The bold statement below is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Attributing the work of God to Satan. IMHO

Matthew 12:24-28
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

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Perhaps, but it could also be based on this statement as well.

“"And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So it’s unclear to me what exactly He was referring to.

BNR32FAN said:

Actually love is required also my friend. If I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing.

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Am I clanging again lol?

That's right, and when Jesus warns us about the 'unforgivable sin', you can bet it's from a place of love, meaning at least that we can trust that forgiveness is never entirely off the table.

Saint Steven said:

"You are correct to note that there is no consensus on this. …" - lol

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Have we reached a consensus that God's love wins? That mercy boasteth over judgement?

BNR32FAN said:

Perhaps, but it could also be based on this statement as well.

“"And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So it’s unclear to me what exactly He was referring to.

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Well, I based my statement on the passage that contains the scripture about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, rather than looking elsewhere. (as most do)

Matthew 12:31-32
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

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Saint Steven said: ↑
You are correct to note that there is no consensus on this. I would blame Cessationism. However, it was quite clear to me what he meant. The bold statement below is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Attributing the work of God to Satan. IMHO

Matthew 12:24-28
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Shrewd Manager said:

Have we reached a consensus that God's love wins? That mercy boasteth over judgement?

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Yes. But we might have to define "we".

Shrewd Manager said:

Am I clanging again lol?

That's right, and when Jesus warns us about the 'unforgivable sin', you can bet it's from a place of love, meaning at least that we can trust that forgiveness is never entirely off the table.

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No I wouldn’t say you are clanging, I’m confident that Christ is residing in you.

BNR32FAN said:

Actually love is required also my friend. If I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing.

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In that context, "faith" is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. (spiritual gift)
A gift that not everyone has. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11; 1 Corinthians 12:29-31)

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Saint Steven said:

Well, I based my statement on the passage that contains the scripture about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, rather than looking elsewhere. (as most do)

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Not sure if you noticed this but the scriptures I provided were said directly before His mentioning of blasphemy of the Spirit.

“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Saint Steven said:

Yes. But we might have to define "we".

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Good point. I concede on consensus.

BNR32FAN said:

Not sure if you noticed this but the scriptures I provided were said directly before His mentioning of blasphemy of the Spirit.

“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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If that's the punchline, where is the "joke"?

Good day, fellows. I get to go to work now.

Saint Steven said:

In that context, "faith" is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. (spiritual gift)
A gift that not everyone has. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11; 1 Corinthians 12:29-31)

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

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Isn't everyone accorded a measure of faith?

BNR32FAN said:

No I wouldn’t say you are clanging, I’m confident that Christ is residing in you.

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I certainly hope so, cause there's nothing else there of any value.

FineLinen said:

Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

The Doctrine of the Ages in the Bible

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What do you feel about this verse?

mark 3:29 KJV
"29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

What does the "never" mean......And what is the "Eternal Damnation" referring to?

RaymondG said:

What do you feel about this verse?

mark 3:29 KJV
"29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

What does the "never" mean......And what is the "Eternal Damnation" referring to?

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Dear Raymond:

"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercy is without end.."

We are commanded to love our enemies a minimum of 490 times. Does the Father of all fathers do likewise?

In the first place there are exactly two passages in all Canon using aidios, this is NOT one of them!

In the second place, damnation is NOT a koine word! Ktisis yes, damnation NO!

The outcome of the blasphemy of the Spirit (conducted constantly on Xian boards) extends into two ages, this age/aeon & the next age/aeon.

Not aidios, not forever & ever, this aion & the next.

Dear Raymond: Your question for today =

What is the scope of ta pante?

Romans 11:36 - Bible Gateway

Shrewd Manager said:

Don't care. Faith is all that's required to fill the gaps. Just a little can move mountains, y'know.

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Actually, I think it unwise to add blind belief where there is uncertainty.....One should continue to seek until they find.

Also, a little faith cannot move anything. Mustard seed faith, it the biggest, strongest faith that anyone can have....and few obtain.

FineLinen said:

Dear Raymond:

"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercy is without end.."

We are commanded to love our enemies a minimum of 490 times. Does the Father of all fathers do likewise?

In the first place there are exactly two passages in all Canon using aidios, this is NOT one of them!

In the second place, damnation is NOT a koine word! Ktisis yes, damnation NO!

The outcome of the blasphemy of the Spirit (conducted constantly on Xian boards) extends into two ages, this age/aeon & the next age/aeon.

Not aidios, not forever & ever, this aion & the next.

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Are you saying that, for your assertions to stand, you have to ignore the verse that I mentioned, or maybe switch translations?

I added nothing to the verse, only quoted it. And I said nothing for or against universal ism, nothing about the love mercy or forgiving ability of God, and referenced no greek words.

The verse mentioned "eternal damnation" and never being forgiven. Are you able to shed any light on what was meant by this verse, using only this verse and the surrounding verses or chapters?

We all know that almost any doctrine can be supported by picking a few verses that seem to support it. It is harder, however, to simply reason out one verse that seem to disagree with any one doctrine, without using other verses or ideas that seem to contradict the verse in question.

But I think you can do it...which is why I asked. If you cannot, I understand.