True saving faith is proven by your repentance

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

friend of said:
That's talking about living in habitual sin. Paul obviously didn't do that. But that doesn't mean he was claiming to be sinless

First, how do you define habitual sin? Is that the way the Bible describes how we can be condemned by sin? Remember, it only took one sin to condemn the whole human race by Adam's one time sin (Romans 5:12). Ananias and Sapphira (Who were once saved) were later condemned to hell for lying to the Spirit. Why? Because a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about their deaths (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11 and take special note of special on verse 11). The "emotion of fear" does not make sense if the church thought they either were:

(a) Safely in the arms of Jesus, or
(b) They were unbelievers pretending to be believers.

Fear by the church only makes sense if the same could happen to them by a similar kind of sin (that would upset the Lord to condemn them like that). Hence, why we are told work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? It makes no sense. Furthermore, if that is not enough. How many murders or adulteries does it take for a person to be a murderer or an adulterer according to the Bible?

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.
#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).
#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).
#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."
#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).
#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).
#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Second, while Titus 1:16 is referring to how they are disobedient (sinful), but it also says that they are reprobate unto every good work, too.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
(Titus 1:16).

This is how they deny God. Not only in disobedience by committing sin, but by being "reprobate unto every good work," too. The good works are loving your neighbor (Such as the brethren, preaching the Word, helping the poor, etc.).

Side Note:

What is interesting in Titus 1 is that it describes one of the beliefs of the "Secure in One's Sin Salvationists." This belief was actually referenced not too long ago. They were saying that you cannot possibly know what sins you are committing to even confess of them all. It says in Titus 1:15, "...but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15). Many "Secure in One's Sin Salvationists" have told me that we sin every day in thought, action, and deeds. Nothing is pure in regards to the physical body, yet they believe their soul or spirit is saved (despite their outward sinful body). This is why they feel they are saved by a belief alone on Jesus (despite how they live or despite their sin). Truly scary stuff. We are living in the last days indeed (Please see 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

friend of · Jan 13, 2020

Jason I am far too lazy to dismantle your argument. Let me just ask you a quick question:

When Jacob lied to his father Isaac and received the blessing that was due Esau, did he end up in the Lake of Fire for being a liar?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

renniks said:
You clearly don't understand grace.

I understand grace just fine. The Bible says that while grace abounded, grace also reigns through righteousness.

"...grace abounded... even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Romans 5:20-21).

What is one kind of righteousness according to the Bible?

1 John 3:7 says, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous..."

He that does righteousness is righteous.

Let that sink in.

The grace of God teaches us that we are to deny ungodliness, worldly lusts, and that we should live righteously, and godly in this present world.

Titus 2:11-12 says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"

This is contrary to the kind of version of grace that you have given me the impression of (by your words so far). By what you said so far, I have gotten the impression that your version grace of God teaches us that we do not have to always deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts, and we cannot live righteously, and godly in this present world. By what you said so far, I believe your version of grace does not teach what Titus 2:11-12 teaches. For it makes room for justifying sin on some level.

For what is the end goal or purpose of Christ dying for us?

Ephesians 5:25-27 gives us the answer. It says,

"...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. " (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Christ loved the church and gave himself for it so that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the "washing of the water of the Word" (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is without spot, and that it should be a church that is holy and without blemish. Again, when I hear you talk, I get the opposite impression of that.

Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. So the person who denies the doctrine of ungodliness knows nothing.

You said:
I just remembered I made an illegal u-turn a week or so ago. On that trip, I also went over the speed limit multiple times, to keep with the flow of traffic. Now, does that mean I have to remember and confess every single time I broke the law of the land? Have I been under condemnation and bound for hell for a week because I didn't confess these violations? Truth is, they never even crossed my mind in the context of asking God to forgive them.

This is what I am talking about. Not all sins lead unto spiritual death. It is not a felony or major violation of our country to break these kinds of laws. Unless your intent was to "not love your neighbor," then I don't see this as the kind of sins that could cause a believer to go to hell over. Sure, we should as believers strive to obey the Law of the land. You should not strive to speed, and you should strive to try to resist in doing u-turns. For if we resist the ordinances of the land, we resist God (Romans 13). The laws of the land (that are not in violation of God's laws) are there to protect us and it honors God if we obey the law of the land. I would say an example of violating the traffic law that could condemn us is if we speeded down a street where we know kids would play out in the street, or speeding in a school zone when kids are walking around, or we drive in such a way that is unsafe (putting the lives of others at great risk).

You said:
I had plenty of more worrisome sins to confess.
If we lose our salvation every time we break the law, every Christian that travels to work loses their salvation every morning.

The Law of Moses is no more. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. If you have other more worrisome sins to confess than traffic laws, I would encourage you to confess them with the intent that you will be forgiven of them if you confess them because that is what 1 John 1:9 says. You believe that you are forgiven even before confessing them. But 1 John 1:9 paints a different picture or reality than what you say and believe.

You said:
You can't live by the law, and neither can I. It's impossible. All you've done is substitute the old testament law for a new series of rules. Rule keeping can't save you, only the blood of Christ can.

Not true. Paul was talking against trying to be saved by the Old Law, and he was also fighting against "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace). Paul was not against the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness (1 Timothy 6:3-4). God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). You believe that not upholding any kind of standard of God's laws does not save you, but yet you and many others will say that no practicing Christian will be a murderer, child abuser, or rapist. At least, I hope you believe that a Christian cannot be that way. John says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). So either John is a confused legalist or the apostle John falsely thinks being good is a part of eternal life. Even Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). So how do you explain these words by Jesus? It sounds like Jesus thinks that doing good is a part of salvation. Just read the verses for yourself. They are clear in what they say. All you have to do is read and believe these words in Luke 10:25-28. Put these words on the inside of you, and do not speak against them.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

friend of said:
Jason I am far too lazy to dismantle your argument.

You need to in order for your belief to be true.

You said:
Let me just ask you a quick question:

When Jacob lied to his father Isaac and received the blessing that was due Esau, did he end up in the Lake of Fire for being a liar?

God gives us chances to repent or confess of our sins.
That does not mean we are not to live holy as the Bible teaches us.
God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Jesus was not kidding around when He said in Matthew 13:42-43 that His angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (make others to sin), or that works iniquity (or lawlessness) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).
Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that anyone who does not hear (obeys) that prophet (JESUS) will be destroyed. So you have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not those verses you prefer to see (from your own belief that appears to be more comforting).
Oh, and besides; Jacob was also not a New Covenant believer, either.
Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Ghost and they were instantly killed, and a great fear fell upon the church when they heard about that. This does not make sense in your view of Soteriology.

friend of · Jan 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
sins.
That does not mean we are not to live holy as the Bible teaches us.

I'll simplify what I'm saying: Did Jacob go to LoF after he died for stealing his brother's birth right? He can't exactly repent of taking Esau's birthright and blessing, so according to you his destiny is the LoF for being a deceiver.

Personally, I think he's saved.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

friend of said:
I'll simplify what I'm saying: Did Jacob go to LoF after he died for stealing his brother's birth right? He can't exactly repent of taking Esau's birthright and blessing, so according to you his destiny is the LoF for being a deceiver.

Personally, I think he's saved.

I believe Jacob confessed and forsaken such a sin. We can have mercy and grace if we do so.

friend of · Jan 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
believe Jacob confessed and forsaken such a sin. We can have mercy and grace if we do so

Jacob did not forsake the acquisition of his new birthright nor was Isaac's blessing forsaken. He can't exactly repent of those things; those cheques have already been cashed. Yet God still considered him and his offspring blessed despite such deception. Why do you think God overlooked such sins as these? Jw

jahel · Jan 13, 2020

He’s a play actor?

CharismaticLady · Jan 13, 2020

Guojing said:
So by your definition, why is that not a wilful sin? You could have remembered but you chose not to, correct?

So every time you forget to do something, it was intentional? I don't believe that.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

friend of said:
Jacob did not forsake the acquisition of his new birthright nor was Isaac's blessing forsaken. He can't exactly repent of those things; those cheques have already been cashed. Yet God still considered him and his offspring blessed despite such deception. Why do you think God overlooked such sins as these? Jw

God elects us based on his foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2). I believe God knew what Jacob was going to do and that was to confess and forsake his sin later on. This has to be the interpretative view of his limited life story as revealed in Scripture because that is the baseline requirement for salvation as revealed in other parts of Scripture. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. See, the problem I have with your belief is not only is it immoral (because it turns God's grace into a license for immorality - Jude 1:4), it cannot be defended by looking to the whole counsel of God's Word. Sure, you may be able to take a certain piece of Scripture here and there to defend how we can be secure in our sin while we are still saved, but that is not what the Bible teaches. The prodigal son when he came home and sought forgiveness with his father was said by his father that he was "dead" and he is "alive again." (See: Luke 15:11-32). So the prodigal son was dead spiritually when he lived his prodigal life in spending his inheritance on prostitutes, and he became alive again spiritually when he came back to home and he sought forgiveness with his father. He was said to be "lost," and now he is "found." Generally when Christians speak of the "lost," they are referring to unsaved individuals.

Sure, God gives people space and time to repent; Especially those of the household of faith. But believers like Ananias and Sapphira were not so blessed. In your view: God should not have destroyed them for lying to the Spirit. But it happened.

Side Note:

Again, if your view of "sin and salvation" has any shred of truth to it, then you will not look to only those few verses that appears to defend your belief here, but you have to explain the really tough verses that are put forth towards you (like the ones you do not want to answer). If not, then your belief is simply not true.

friend of · Jan 13, 2020

What about sin that is unwillful? What about sin that we don't realize is actually sin? What about bad thoughts that flair up in the mind sometimes?

I'm curious as to how you expect people to live up to this godly standard. Do you know people like this irl?

friend of · Jan 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The prodigal son when he came home and sought forgiveness with his father was said by his father that he was "dead" and he is "alive again." (See: Luke 15:11-32). So the prodigal son was dead spiritually when he lived his prodigal life in spending his inheritance on prostitutes, and he became alive again spiritually when he came back to home and he sought forgiveness with his father. He was said to be "lost," and now he is "found." Generally when Christians speak of the "lost," they are referring to unsaved individuals.

So people are only alive until they (inevitably) sin again, unwillingly, and then they are dead again? And then they do the 1 john 1:9 formula and viola, they're alive again. Rinse and repeat?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

friend of said:
What about sin that is unwillful? What about sin that we don't realize is actually sin? What about bad thoughts that flair up in the mind sometimes?

I'm curious as to how you expect people to live up to this godly standard. Do you know people like this irl?

Here are Ways For a Believer To Overcome Grievous Sin by God's Word and With the Help of Jesus: (Important Note (PLEASE READ): Please understand that I am not talking about overcoming minor sins, like imperfections of character here (Note: An example of a sin of imperfection of character would be that a person may not always be a great listener, and or they may not take out the trash on time, or they go 5mph over the speed limit a little, etc.); But grievous sin (like murder, theft, adultery, coveting, etc.), these are sins that the Bible describes as sins leading to spiritual death. In other words, I am NOT talking about Sinless Perfectionism here) (I believe Sinless Perfection deals with putting away "sins that do not lead to spiritual death and it is not exclusively talking about just meeting the basic requirements for living holy - According to the New Testament). Anyways, here is my list from Scripture that shows how a believer can overcome "grievous sin" or sins that lead to spiritual death.

#1. A believer can remove themselves from sinful environments.

A believer should remove themselves from sinful environments (if possible) and or get rid of things that cause them to sin. In Genesis: Joseph had literally ran away from the temptation of sexual sin (Genesis 39:11-12). One of the commands in the New Testament is: "Flee fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) (Note: Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord - 1 Corinthians 14:37) (KJV). Sometimes this running away is merely a means of escape. God provides a way of escape for us to run to so that we can bear the temptation and get through it. For 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

#2. Believers can pray to God so as not to be tempted.

Believers can pray to God so as not to be tempted. It is part of the Lord’s prayer for a believer to pray so as not to be tempted into sin (Matthew 6:12). God will guide and protect a believer if they are serious in praying for this. "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:41). In fact, fasting will help a believer with this, as well. I believe that being enslaved to sin is a demonic influence. While being enslaved to sin does not mean a Christian is possessed by a demon, we learn that certain demon possessions could not be driven out only by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:21). So if demon possession at the most intense level can only be healed (by the casting out of the demon) by both prayer and fasting, then it is a sure bet that fasting and praying to overcome sin will also help a believer overcome sin (Which is a demonic influence).

#3. Believers can obey God’s righteous ways.

Believers can obey God’s righteous ways. The more a believer loves God and loves others and obeys His Word and they stay in His Word and pray, the more they will not even have a chance to sin or do the wrong thing. For the more a believer walk in God's Word by the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14). "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

#4. When a believer is tempted, they can quote Scripture.

When a believer is tempted, they can quote Scripture to defeat the devil's temptation. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, He quoted Scripture to defeat the devil (Matthew 4:4) (Matthew 4:7) (Matthew 4:10). So when some specific sin is bothering a believer, a believer can do research and find all the verses they can that are victory verses that they can speak when tempted to overcome that particular sin. A good general verse (Especially if a believer is tempted to look at women in lust if they find themselves in public around a lot of people) is, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” (Psalms 23:1). A believer can say these verses to themselves silently under their breath (with nobody hearing).

#5. Believers can ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians.

A believer can ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians or Godly Christians to help them to overcome certain sins. The Scriptures say, "bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ." So a believer should seek true fellowship (even if it is just 2 or 3 faithful believers to meet up every week so as to worship God) and they should ask these faithful Christians for help to overcome their sin. In 1 John 5, we see Christians praying for a believer who is struggling to overcome a sin (that they are confessing). "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16). A faithful Christian shall ask God to give their fellow Christian life (victory) in overcoming their sin that they are confessing (i.e. sin that is confessed is not a sin that leads unto death).

#6. A believer can hide God’s Word in their heart.

A believer can hide God’s Word in their heart to overcome grievous sin. Meaning, a believer should memorize Scripture. David said he hid God’s Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." (Psalms 119:11).

#7. A believer can confess of their sins.

A believer can confess of their sins. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I hope this helps.
May God's good ways be upon you always.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~J.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

friend of said:
So people are only alive until they (inevitably) sin again, unwillingly, and then they are dead again? And then they do the 1 john 1:9 formula and viola, they're alive again. Rinse and repeat?

The goal is to overcome grievous sin in this life in order to have eternal life. Paul wants us to go even beyond that. For why else would Paul say the following?

"...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Problem: This verse needs to be blotted out with a black magic marker in order for your belief to work or you need to re-write it to say something else in what it plainly says. For in your belief, you cannot cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfect holiness in the fear of God. There is not even a fear of God in your belief. One is secure in their sin and they are still saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. This is why your belief is illogical in light of what we read in Scripture.

Guojing · Jan 13, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
So every time you forget to do something, it was intentional? I don't believe that.

The law defines what is sin. James said if you stumble at one point, you are guilty of breaking all of it.

If you want to live under the law, there is no such thing as non willful sin.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 13, 2020

Guojing said:
The law defines what is sin. James said if you stumble at one point, you are guilty of breaking all of it.

If you want to live under the law, there is no such thing as non willful sin.

This amazes me that James 2:10 is quoted out of its context so many times by many. You are taking the words of James out of context. The point by James was not that we cannot keep God's laws, but his point was about how if you hate your brother by not showing favor to the poor brethren and only to the rich brethren, then we are violators of all of God's laws. Please read the whole chapter again in context. The apostle John also said that if we hate our brother, and we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Guojing · Jan 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
This amazes me that James 2:10 is quoted out of its context so many times by many. You are taking the words of James out of context. The point by James was not that we cannot keep God's laws, but his point was about how if you hate your brother by not showing favor to the poor brethren and only to the rich brethren, then we are violators of all of God's laws. Please read the whole chapter again in context. The apostle John also said that if we hate our brother, and we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

What will be your example of a non-wilful sin then? You don't believe all sins are willfully committed?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 14, 2020

Guojing said:
What will be your example of a non-wilful sin then? You don't believe all sins are willfully committed?

Unlike Charismatic Lady, I don't believe we are under the Old Covenant in regards to this aspect of the Law. I believe the "sins unto death" are different in the New Covenant. The "sin not unto death" in the Old only meant non-physical death for sins not committed with a high hand or intentionally. This is not the case in the New Covenant. In the New Covenant, there is no death penalty by the hand of God's people for committing sin. Justice is now taken care of by God via the law of the land or directly by God. For it is written: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord." It is why Jesus changed this aspect of the Law during His earthly ministry on matters of justice with the woman caught in the act of adultery before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death upon the cross. I believe a Christian abides in "spiritual death" even if they did not intend to lust, lie, steal, etc.; I believe that a Christian has to confess and forsake such sins in order to have mercy and or forgiveness (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13).

My response to you was in regards to James 2:10 in how it was quoted out of its context. For you are trying to point out how James 2:10 is in reference to how if you break any kind of law of God (no matter how minor) you break them all, but the context is in reference to breaking the "Royal Law" in loving your neighbor and not just any law. Just read the chapter.

renniks · Jan 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
.grace abounded... even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Romans 5:20-21).

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That's Christ's righteousness, not yours.

renniks · Jan 14, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
This is what I am talking about. Not all sins lead unto spiritual death. It is not a felony or major violation of our country to break these kinds of laws. Unless your intent was to "not love your neighbor," then I don't see this as the kind of sins that could cause a believer to go to hell over. Sure, we should as believers strive to obey the Law of the land. You should not strive to speed, and you should strive to try to resist in doing u-turns. For if we resist the ordinances of the land, we resist God (Romans 13). The laws of the land (that are not in violation of God's laws) are there to protect us and it honors God if we obey the law of the land. I would say an example of violating the traffic law that could condemn us is if we speeded down a street where we know kids would play out in the street, or speeding in a school zone when kids are walking around, or we drive in such a way that is unsafe (putting the lives of others at great risk)

Totally arbitrary. You are just guessing what sins YOU think are the bad ones. Christ died once for all sin, not just certain sins you think you need saved from, while the others you just tell God, " I got this one. I'm righteous enough to secure my own salvation in this area. " Good grief.

True saving faith is proven by your repentance

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

A private in Gods army

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

A private in Gods army

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

A private in Gods army

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

A private in Gods army

A private in Gods army

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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