True saving faith is proven by your repentance

CharismaticLady said:

Adam was perfect. The slightest offense would make him imperfect. Leviticus 5:15 shows us that a trespass is unwittingly committed. It is unintentional.

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Should I understand that you don't think the Lord's Prayer covers big sins?

Bible Highlighter said:

They love this verse. They just eat it up, but they quote it out of context.
They do not realize that the sheep that cannot be snatched out His hand are the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus according to verse 27 (John 10:27). This is the only way in how their belief can actually work. They have to quote verses out of their context and ignore the surrounding words in what they plainly say.

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I agree that "the sheep that cannot be snatched out His hand are the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus." But I also know we will never follow Jesus perfectly. And we see in John 10 that the issue is how to be saved
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

It's all laid out right there. First step in obtaining salvation, Listen, second step, follow, third. God gives us eternal life and we will never perish. It's not saying we never perish only if we always follow perfectly and never slip up or fall into temptation.
"no one will snatch them out of my hand" Including Satan! The only way to remove our selves from his hand is to totally reverse the process, first, stop following, second stop listening, which will eventually lead to no longer believing, which means we are then no longer his sheep.

renniks said:

I agree that "the sheep that cannot be snatched out His hand are the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus." But I also know we will never follow Jesus perfectly. And we see in John 10 that the issue is how to be saved
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

It's all laid out right there. First step in obtaining salvation, Listen, second step, follow, third. God gives us eternal life and we will never perish. It's not saying we never perish only if we always follow perfectly and never slip up or fall into temptation.
"no one will snatch them out of my hand" Including Satan! The only way to remove our selves from his hand is to totally reverse the process, first, stop following, second stop listening, which will eventually lead to no longer believing, which means we are then no longer his sheep.

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I disagree. Justifying even a little bit of grievous sin under God’s grace is all it takes to no longer be a sheep. Saying to people that future sin is forgiven them or telling them that they don’t lose salvation via by committing grievous sin is contrary to following Jesus because He warned us about how certain grievous sins can destroy our souls in hellfire or condemnation (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, etc.).

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This truth runs contrary to a “secure in one’s sin view of salvation.” You cannot confess of sin to be forgiven of sin if all future sin is paid for. It is nonsense.

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

One is not living holy if they think that they can turn God’s grace into a license to sin on some level (Jude 1:4). It is ridiculous to say so otherwise.

aiki said:

No, in fact, fellowship and relationship are not synonymous - not as far as I'm concerned, anyway. Very disparate things, things quite unrelated to each other, may have things in common. For instance, I share in common with every black hole in the universe a presence in the universe. I am in the universe and so are black holes; we have this in common, but we have no direct relationship to each other - certainly not in the sense meant in Scripture when it says believers have fellowship with Jesus Christ and God the Father (1 John 1:3), believers who in other places are called God's children and branches, denoting intimate communion between God and the Christian believer.

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That's a relationship. When we're born again, we're born sons of God. What is that if not a relationship?

As I said in my last post, there is some overlap between the two terms (fellowship and relationship) - one cannot have fellowship with someone with whom one does not first have a relationship - but "fellowship" speaks of intimate communion in a way the word "relationship" does not. This intimacy between a believer and God is spelled out in other places in Scripture quite clearly (John 15:5; Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 3:26, Ephesians 5:1, etc.).

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You are trying to make a distinction where none exists because to admit a relationship mangles your pretext that Christians cannot lose their salvation.

Of course he did: He was his father's son. Even if he'd died, he'd still have been so. What he didn't have with his father was intimate communion - fellowship - with him.

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He didn't have a relationship. Without fellowship there is no relationship.

Fellowship is a form of relating but that which is distinguished by intimate communion. Such communion the father and son did not have, though they were inextricably related to each other as father and son.

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He says explicitly, that even though he was his son, his son was dead to him. They had no relationship.

From what relationship? No matter how far the son might have strayed, he was always and ever his father's son.

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From a dead relationship. One called dead explicitly in the text.

As far as I'm aware, nowhere in the New Testament does the statement "we are born sons of God" appear in reference to the unsaved person. All people are born in sin (Romans 5:18-19; Psalms 51:5), cursed by the Fall, "dead in trespasses and sins." But when they come into relationship with God as His beloved children by faith in Christ as their Lord and Saviour, they are forever His, accepted in the Beloved (Ephesians 1:6) (and ONLY accepted thereby) with whom God is always pleased. And it is because this is so, because the believer is accepted by God on the merits of Christ, not on their own merits, they can rest assured their acceptance by God never wavers, never dissolves.

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Jesus said that children must be received in his name. Meaning that he considered children his. Since they haven't yet fallen into sin, they're all his children. They die when they sin. In other words our relationship dies when we sin.

But then you have this:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Being born again is to become co-heirs with Christ. His brothers and sisters.

CharismaticLady said:

Can you tell me why you would commit sins you need to repent of in the first place after receiving the Holy Spirit to guide you?

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There is no account in the Bible where we find the Holy Spirit preventing anyone from sinning. Even Peter had to be chastised for his hypocrisy. Certainly you don't think Peter, an apostle, was without the Spirit? Why didn't it stop him?

CharismaticLady said:

The premise is unintentional, and committing a mistake without your knowledge that it was even a mistake.

It is the reason you can't specifically confess something you don't even know you did. But the word says because we do make unknown mistakes and are not 100% perfect, the way for trespasses to be forgiven is by our continuing to forgive others who hurt our feelings unintentionally as well. Matthew 6:14-15

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tres·pass
1.commit an offense against (a person or a set of rules).
"a man who had trespassed against Judaic law"
2.
a sin or offense.

A sin and a trespass is the same thing.

Bible Highlighter said:

I disagree. Justifying even a little bit of grievous sin under God’s grace is all it takes to no longer be a sheep. Saying to people that future sin is forgiven them or telling them that they don’t lose salvation via by committing grievous sin is contrary to following Jesus because He warned us about how certain grievous sins can destroy our souls in hellfire or condemnation (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, etc.).

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This truth runs contrary to a “secure in one’s sin view of salvation.” You cannot confess of sin to be forgiven of sin if all future sin is paid for. It is nonsense.

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

One is not living holy if they think that they can turn God’s grace into a license to sin on some level (Jude 1:4). It is ridiculous to say so otherwise.

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You clearly don't understand grace. I just remembered I made an illegal u-turn a week or so ago. On that trip, I also went over the speed limit multiple times, to keep with the flow of traffic. Now, does that mean I have to remember and confess every single time I broke the law of the land?
Have I been under condemnation and bound for hell for a week because I didn't confess these violations? Truth is, they never even crossed my mind in the context of asking God to forgive them. I had plenty of more worrisome sins to confess.
If we lose our salvation every time we break the law, every Christian that travels to work loses their salvation every morning.

You can't live by the law, and neither can I. It's impossible. All you've done is substitute the old testament law for a new series of rules. Rule keeping can't save you, only the blood of Christ can.

CharismaticLady said:

Can you tell me why you would commit sins you need to repent of in the first place after receiving the Holy Spirit to guide you?

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because, just like me an you and everybody else 100% human, he is not perfect.

Guojing said:

So you cannot think of any examples of non-wilful sin? Okay then.

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sin is sin, period. It is merely a matter of whether one commits or one does not. God said "for all have sinned." He did NOT categorize it in the fundamental salvation issue, EVER, as far I can remember. This "willful" or not issue is moot.

CharismaticLady said:

I hope we agree on more than that!

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You can check out what I believe in my statement of faith posted at CF here:

What is your Statement of Faith?

There is no question that born-again believers sin and do so willfully. See 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6 and 11. In his first letter to them, the apostle Paul both condemns the many gross sins of the Corinthian believers and also repeatedly confirms their membership in God's family.

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul also says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

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That's talking about living in habitual sin. Paul obviously didn't do that. But that doesn't mean he was claiming to be sinless

Monksailor said:

sin is sin, period. It is merely a matter of whether one commits or one does not. God said "for all have sinned." He did NOT categorize it in the fundamental salvation issue, EVER, as far I can remember. This "willful" or not issue is moot.

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I agree with you all sins are committed wilfully. My question was directed to cl and you came in anyway

CharismaticLady said:

The premise is unintentional, and committing a mistake without your knowledge that it was even a mistake.

It is the reason you can't specifically confess something you don't even know you did. But the word says because we do make unknown mistakes and are not 100% perfect, the way for trespasses to be forgiven is by our continuing to forgive others who hurt our feelings unintentionally as well. Matthew 6:14-15

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What is an example of that sin again?

You already said the custom u live in, forgetting a friends birthday is a sin and you agree it’s wilful

Bible Highlighter said:

You can check out what I believe in my statement of faith posted at CF here:

What is your Statement of Faith?

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You statement of faith doesn't say how we are able to keep harder commandments than the OT. Answer: The Spirit.

Guojing said:

What is an example of that sin again?

You already said the custom u live in, forgetting a friends birthday is a sin and you agree it’s wilful

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I didn't not agree it is willful. You made that distinction.

CharismaticLady said:

I didn't not agree it is willful. You made that distinction.

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you do agree that if I wanted to remember anyone's birthday, I could have?

Guojing said:

you do agree that if I wanted to remember anyone's birthday, I could have?

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Of course, and you would not have hurt their feelings. But if you did forget, their feelings would be hurt.

CharismaticLady said:

You statement of faith doesn't say how we are able to keep harder commandments than the OT. Answer: The Spirit.

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I say this in my "Statement of Faith:"

Source:
What is your Statement of Faith?

CharismaticLady said:

Of course, and you would not have hurt their feelings. But if you did forget, their feelings would be hurt.

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So by your definition, why is that not a wilful sin? You could have remembered but you chose not to, correct?