Liberals, why can't someone choose their race?

muichimotsu · Jan 12, 2020

Correct; there are more of a biological difference between biological sex/gender than race; so the idea of identifying as a different gender makes less sense than identifying as a different race

You keep conflating sex and gender, that doesn't make your definition valid, you have to actually defend that claim. I don't deny there are biological differences in sex, there aren't biological differences in gender as a social construct

Biological sex is not about intercourse, it is about the physical differences between male and female. It’s not based on how you feel, it’s based on biological differences.

And gender is based on a persistent feeling, it's not identical with sex, no matter how much you insist on that conflation

Male/female is not the same as man/woman? What’s the difference? With humans, what’s the difference between a male vs man? What’s the difference between a female vs woman?

A female is one who has those biological traits associated with XX Chromosomes, etc, a woman is a societal description for someone that fits that association of being feminine in a more persistent identity rather than just expressions and practices that are "feminine", not excluding males and men from participating in them (fashion, etc). Female/male is the biological aspects, man/woman are societal descriptors that aren't remotely static

If gender is based on biology; that would make it more concreted than race.

You can question beg, that's not supporting your argument's conclusion, which is rooted in an essentialist notion that conflates two words to mean the same thing

No; According to psychologists, race is a social construction, and has evolved over time

Perhaps I misspoke then: the point being that the physical traits associated with a race are arguably as variable as gender, but not in the same manner, because there are still norms that are based on some degree of physical appearances or lineage and not just how you feel, unlike gender, where it's not based on your genitals, but expression, presentation, identity in an internalized rather than externalized sense with race (being "black enough", etc)

SkyWriting · Jan 12, 2020

muichimotsu said:
Again, no it isn't, because male/female is not identical with man/woman except in antiquated and myopic usage of the terms without considering that gendering of language was already a thing for centuries in ancient times (yet we don't consider language to have genitals and such)

A girl at the auto service counter Friday was being a real dick about us getting a battery installed. Not the "C" word.

muichimotsu · Jan 12, 2020

SkyWriting said:
A girl at the auto service counter Friday was being a real dick about us getting a battery installed. Not the "C" word.

I mean, both of them can be used in a figurative sense of insulting rather than calling them literally those parts of human genitals, so...not sure of the point exactly? It's like calling someone an ass in the sense of being a donkey rather than your butt.

Ken-1122 · Jan 13, 2020

muichimotsu said:
You keep conflating sex and gender, that doesn't make your definition valid, you have to actually defend that claim. I don't deny there are biological differences in sex, there aren't biological differences in gender as a social construct

Not everybody agrees with the idea that there is a difference between Gender and sex, in ordinary speech gender and sex are often used interchangeably. The idea that there are differences between the two is not something based on science, as a matter of fact, in some languages they are the same word.

Sex and gender distinction - Wikipedia

muichimotsu said:
And gender is based on a persistent feeling,

So what is this feeling? What does it feel like to be a man? What does it feel like to be a woman? Because I’m not convinced such a feeling even exist; but since you think it does, please describe these feelings.

muichimotsu said:
Perhaps I misspoke then: the point being that the physical traits associated with a race are arguably as variable as gender, but not in the same manner, because there are still norms that are based on some degree of physical appearances or lineage and not just how you feel, unlike gender,

There are gender norms based on physical appearance as well, but even if there weren’t, why does this justify identifying as a different gender, but not justifying identifying as a different race?

muichimotsu · Jan 13, 2020

Not everybody agrees with the idea that there is a difference between Gender and sex, in ordinary speech gender and sex are often used interchangeably. The idea that there are differences between the two is not something based on science, as a matter of fact, in some languages they are the same word.

In ordinary speech, gay used to mean happy, language usage evolves, you being unwilling to consider your outdated notions is wrong is a fault you don't seem to recognize

Again, you're going based on mere tradition, that's not remotely how a rational look at language works, it's prescriptivist drivel that shuts down any change or innovation.

There is basis in science, you're reducing this to one notion of science, as if people are just making gender identity about whims, which is not remotely how it works in how we understand it through psychology, while sex is demonstrably about hard scientific aspects that, at most, have a variance in manifestations of secondary physical characteristics as well as intersex individuals. Me as a male is not going to be the same as another male in terms of all traits, the only thing we would share in common is having a Y chromosome, but I may have more or less testosterone or muscle mass, etc.

So what is this feeling? What does it feel like to be a man? What does it feel like to be a woman? Because I’m not convinced such a feeling even exist; but since you think it does, please describe these feelings.

You not being convinced is literally an argument from ignorance. How you feel as a man is not the same as how I feel as a man, but we're both cisgender in that we aren't feeling different relative to societal norms (gender as a construct) about what we'd normally associate to our biological sex (which don't necessarily align rationally, because society can be myopic about what counts as feminine or masculine at any given time)

There are gender norms based on physical appearance as well, but even if there weren’t, why does this justify identifying as a different gender, but not justifying identifying as a different race?

Because race is based far more on the physical appearance aspect, even if it's on a spectrum, it's still not something you can just do anymore than I can just say I'm ethnically Jewish even if there's no ethnic Jewish ancestry in my lineage, same with a black person just saying they're white even if that's not remotely in their lineage.

The difference is where the societal construction is based in: gender isn't about how you look as much as society's norms in regards to what is feminine or masculine, while race is at least partially rooted in physical appearance and ethnic origin (distinct from nationality)

JackRT · Jan 13, 2020

There is only one extant human race. Others have existed in the past.

Mountainmanbob · Jan 13, 2020

Z.Mackenzie said:
Why can't Rachel Dolezal be black? Why does it matter if someone's parents and grandparents or direct lineage is majority European descent if they sincerely identify with being black? Sooner or later you guys will need to be consistent.

Seems to have worked for Elizabeth Warren?
M-Bob

SLP · Jan 13, 2020

Z.Mackenzie said:
Why can't Rachel Dolezal be black? Why does it matter if someone's parents and grandparents or direct lineage is majority European descent if they sincerely identify with being black?

Doesn't really matter to me. But when it comes to gender, there is a lot of evidence indicating that it is not as cut and dried as rightists need it to be (they need it to make it easier to hate groups of people, apparently).

Sooner or later you guys will need to be consistent.

Right.
So is it 'love thy neighbor' or 'hate the Mexican/Muslim'?
Is it 'fetuses are a gift from God' or 'screw the kid born to poor parents - who cares about them'?
Is it 'blessed are the poor' or 'the poor are lazy bums'?
Is it 'the rich won't go to heaven' or 'That wonderful man Donald Trump who cheats on his many wives and is greedy and dishonest beyond belief is my Christian idol!'?

Sooner or later you guys will need to be consistent.

SLP · Jan 13, 2020

And the simpletons guffawing over the morons claiming to 'identify' with an attack helicopter - apparently, that passes as high parody in righty circles, but it is really just a reflection of their stupidity and lack of empathy.
Ben Shapiro fantasizing about being manly is not an argument against the recognition of gender issues.

Kylie · Jan 13, 2020

SLP said:
And the simpletons guffawing over the morons claiming to 'identify' with an attack helicopter - apparently, that passes as high parody in righty circles, but it is really just a reflection of their stupidity and lack of empathy.

Well, I have to admit that I've never heard an attack helicopter speak out loud, or wear clothes, so I doubt what they say is true.

I like to play along, and show them how easy it is to respect someone's wishes. Usually shuts them up pretty quick.

Them: I'm an attack helicopter.

Me: Okay, if that's how you identify, I accept it and I will respect your wishes.

Them: Don't you think it's stupid that I say I'm an attack helicopter?

Me: I don't understand it, true, but I don't need to. All I need to do is be respectful of your wishes. And if you wish to be treated like an attack helicopter, then that's good enough for me. I'll respect that, because I'm not an ****.

At that point they generally sigh and drop it.

Ken-1122 · Jan 14, 2020

muichimotsu said:
In ordinary speech, gay used to mean happy, language usage evolves, you being unwilling to consider your outdated notions is wrong is a fault you don't seem to recognize

No I’m not talking about what “used” to be, I’m talking about what currently IS. In ordinary speech gender and sex are often used interchangeably; as a matter of fact, if you spoke German, sex and gender are the same word!

muichimotsu said:
You not being convinced is literally an argument from ignorance. How you feel as a man is not the same as how I feel as a man, but we're both cisgender in that we aren't feeling different relative to societal norms (gender as a construct) about what we'd normally associate to our biological sex (which don't necessarily align rationally, because society can be myopic about what counts as feminine or masculine at any given time)

Now care to answer my question? You made the claim that gender is based on a feeling. I’m asking you to describe this feeling. If you can’t I will continue to assume there is no such feeling; that you just misspoke.

muichimotsu said:
Because race is based far more on the physical appearance aspect,

So is gender

muichimotsu said:
even if it's on a spectrum, it's still not something you can just do anymore than I can just say I'm ethnically Jewish even if there's no ethnic Jewish ancestry in my lineage, same with a black person just saying they're white even if that's not remotely in their lineage.

If you can do it with gender, why can’t you do it with race?

muichimotsu said:
The difference is where the societal construction is based in: gender isn't about how you look as much as society's norms in regards to what is feminine or masculine, while race is at least partially rooted in physical appearance and ethnic origin (distinct from nationality)

Race isn’t about how you look, it’s based on genetics. Often when a person is half black and half white, they will look like Mexicans. Does that make them Mexican? No.

coffee4u · Jan 14, 2020

Z.Mackenzie said:
Why can't Rachel Dolezal be black? Why does it matter if someone's parents and grandparents or direct lineage is majority European descent if they sincerely identify with being black? Sooner or later you guys will need to be consistent.

Because her DNA is European? I'm not liberal though.

Race is a social construct but people do have DNA groups, ethnicities. If your DNA sample comes back as European like Elizabeth Warren then you are genetically European.

There are also people who are genetically one group but culturally another group which I think is valid. I think if someone is mixed or adopted and brought up in a culture that they too can claim to be an adopted/culturally a member of that group if members of that group accept the person as belonging. This sometimes did happen in Native American tribes, where both white and black people were considered adopted in. Warren is not claimed by any tribe for her <1 and she has since apologized.
Unfortunately for Rachel Dolezal she is neither and if you read about her this was her childhood fantasy to escape from her horrible family, so I think she needs some compassion shown but she is deluded mentally.

Armoured said:
Given the uncomfortable fact that far enough back, we're all descended from black Africans...

I believe we are all descendants of Adam and Eve and one blood.
DNA tests only show the last 600 years, so if it doesn't show up on one it doesn't count.

Strathos · Jan 14, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Why would somebody choose not to do that?

Because it spams the front page, brings back old threads that died a long time ago, and no one likes to see it.

coffee4u · Jan 14, 2020

Strathos said:
Because it spams the front page, brings back old threads that died a long time ago, and no one likes to see it.

Ugh sorry, I didn't notice that this was an old thread. :sorry:

Ken-1122 said:
Why would somebody choose not to do that?

Because it's internet etiquette not to do so unless there is some new important information that would truly make a bump wanted. Some boards even have rules against this type of unneeded bumping. I know as I was a moderator on one and was forever closing old bumped threads because people post saying "me too" or some other drivel.

Ken-1122 · Jan 14, 2020

coffee4u said:
Because her DNA is European? I'm not liberal though.

Race is a social construct but people do have DNA groups, ethnicities. If your DNA sample comes back as European like Elizabeth Warren then you are genetically European.

There are also people who are genetically one group but culturally another group which I think is valid. I think if someone is mixed or adopted and brought up in a culture that they too can claim to be an adopted/culturally a member of that group if members of that group accept the person as belonging.

Rachael Dolezal's black sister (through adoption) whom Rachael claims had a great influence on her; fully supports Rachael's decision to identify as black. Does that count?
Rachel Dolezal's Black Adopted Sister Breaks Silence: 'I Fully Support My Sister'

coffee4u · Jan 14, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Rachael Dolezal's black sister (through adoption) whom Rachael claims had a great influence on her; fully supports Rachael's decision to identify as black. Does that count?
Rachel Dolezal's Black Adopted Sister Breaks Silence: 'I Fully Support My Sister'

But no one else in the black community does.

Also, let's not keep replying on a thread from 2016.

muichimotsu · Jan 14, 2020

No I’m not talking about what “used” to be, I’m talking about what currently IS. In ordinary speech gender and sex are often used interchangeably; as a matter of fact, if you spoke German, sex and gender are the same word!

Synonyms are not identical in meaning by necessity, only by context and context is not hard and fast as a language evolves, particularly gender. And I'm skeptical that's actually the case with German to the degree that you cannot distinguish gender as social or linguistic versus sex: again, this sounds much more like a particular usage based on historical context rather than something innate to the words

Now care to answer my question? You made the claim that gender is based on a feeling. I’m asking you to describe this feeling. If you can’t I will continue to assume there is no such feeling; that you just misspoke.

A persistent feeling over time, not just a whim, that your identity in terms of masculinity or femininity is not in line with what your sex is, clashing with a particular societal notion that what's between your legs determines what you should be regarded as in regarded to being a man or a woman (societal terms), rather than male or female (biological terms)

So is gender

Only if you assume it's synonymous with sex, but you've failed to demonstrate that beyond cherry picking and otherwise ignoring how language evolves. Sex factors in physical characteristics, I never said otherwise, I'm rejecting your antiquated notion that gender must be synonymous with sex as a term

If you can do it with gender, why can’t you do it with race?

Because race is not defined in terms of biological characteristics, it hasn't been for easily 40+ years by the scientific community, that thinking encouraged racist prejudices by suggesting black people just had fundamentally different biological traits rather than variations that fit within homo sapiens as a species.

Not sure you understand race any more than you understand gender, both being societally structured by your own admittance, yet you don't seem to understand how they're also distinct in the etiology leading to identifying as such

Race isn’t about how you look, it’s based on genetics. Often when a person is half black and half white, they will look like Mexicans. Does that make them Mexican? No.

Mexican is a subset of Hispanics and Hispanic is pretty wide ranging as well in terms of the ethnic spectrum one would consider. And "often" is based on a limited sample, I'm willing to bet, I see a biracial person, I'm not assuming particular stereotypes like Mexican

muichimotsu · Jan 14, 2020

Race is a social construct but people do have DNA groups, ethnicities. If your DNA sample comes back as European like Elizabeth Warren then you are genetically European.

Ethnicity isn't remotely defined in terms of DNA groups, you're thinking of phenotypes at most, while ethnicity is particular societal groups of association by culture, etc

I believe we are all descendants of Adam and Eve and one blood.
DNA tests only show the last 600 years, so if it doesn't show up on one it doesn't count

That's not a remotely logical argument, we have evidence suggesting you can trace back much of the female gene pool to a single woman, but that's a figurative use of mitochondrial eve, the human population necessarily emerged from a population, not a singular couple (because genetically that would create massive inbreeding defects in a few generations).

The limits of a DNA test don't lend credence to your Adam/Eve hypothesis (if you can even call it that), that's faulty reasoning

DNA as a concept is not something we can physically trace back so easily in the same vein that fossils are actually more difficult to find than people think, the conditions are such that DNA would likely be exceptionally rare to find even 600 years ago if we're being generous.

Ken-1122 · Jan 14, 2020

muichimotsu said:
A persistent feeling over time, not just a whim, that your identity in terms of masculinity or femininity is not in line with what your sex is,

Perhaps rather than changing themselves, they should change their idea of what it means to be masculine or feminine.

muichimotsu said:
Only if you assume it's synonymous with sex, but you've failed to demonstrate that beyond cherry picking and otherwise ignoring how language evolves.

I provided a link that supported what I said.

muichimotsu said:
Because race is not defined in terms of biological characteristics,

Neither is gender (according to you)

muichimotsu said:
Mexican is a subset of Hispanics and Hispanic is pretty wide ranging as well in terms of the ethnic spectrum one would consider. And "often" is based on a limited sample, I'm willing to bet, I see a biracial person, I'm not assuming particular stereotypes like Mexican

My point is; race is about genetics; not about how you look

muichimotsu · Jan 14, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Perhaps rather than changing themselves, they should change their idea of what it means to be masculine or feminine.

Click to expand...

Perhaps they aren't beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means. My friend isn't hurting anyone by presenting as masculine and a man even if they are biologically female and they aren't becoming dysfunctional or the like, which they may have been to an extent before they started doing so. Trans people are not all going to go through surgery and even then it varies to what extent

I provided a link that supported what I said.

Click to expand...

Any one link is arguably insufficient in terms of a phenomenon like language, especially when you have a preconceived notion that makes words so vague they don't mean anything except what "tradition" suggests rather than evolving usage

Neither is gender (according to you)

Click to expand...

And you're just proving my point: they aren't reducible to physical things, thus your assumption they are is already missing the point of how they're understood

My point is; race is about genetics; not about how you look

Click to expand...

Now you're contradicting yourself, you pointed to a link where race is a social construct, it's not about genetics except at best in an incidental fashion that works on a spectrum, it's an association by society of certain aspects that are physical in a general sense with particular groupings

Liberals, why can't someone choose their race?

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