keras

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How can Christians of present and past era's, believing on the promise to reign and rule with Christ - when He returns to rule the nations with a rod of iron - if there is no rapture/resurrection of those Christians prior to the millennium?
Simple; It will only be those who have proved themselves by staying faithful during all that must happen before Jesus Returns. Dead Christians before then, must await the GWT and will have positions of honor in Eternity, according to their deeds. Rev 20:12b
Note that it is ONLY those martyrs of the GT, Rev 20:4, who will rule and reign with Him.
Plus those Christians who are alive and remain at that time, will be transported to where He is. 1 Thess 4:17 They will mostly be those who were taken to safety 1260 days before the Return.

This vexing issue of the 'rapture', is a constant thread derailer.
I understand that for many, it is the only end times theory they have been taught.
They seem to think they hold the moral high ground and anyone who disputes it, is the nutter.
They are unable to provide scriptural proof of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.
They cannot agree among themselves as to when this supposed 'rapture' happens, or why God shoould do such a thing.
It also contradicts many teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

But the clincher is how God's holy people are seen in the holy Land before the GT. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
This truth destroys the 'rapture' believers notion that the Jews go thru the GT and finally become Christian just before Jesus Returns, or a similar scenario.
How can the Jews be the holy people before the Great Tribulation?

Either seriously address these points, or hold your peace.
 
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Douggg

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Simple; It will only be those who have proved themselves by staying faithful during all that must happen before Jesus Returns. Dead Christians before then, must await the GWT and will have positions of honor in Eternity, according to their deeds.
Your explanation is flawed.

The dead in Christ rise first. Before them alive in Christ.

You have it backwards, saying that the alive in Christ, at His Return, will rule with him; then a thousand years later the dead in Christ rise for the GWT.

___________________________________________________________

1Thessalonians4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
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Douggg

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But the clincher is how God's holy people are seen in the holy Land before the GT. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
This truth destroys the 'rapture' believers notion that the Jews go thru the GT and finally become Christian just before Jesus Returns, or a similar scenario.
How can the Jews be the holy people before the Great Tribulation?

Either seriously address these points, or hold your peace.
Israel and the Jews are a chosen people - chosen because of promises made to them, God will sanctify His holy name.


Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

______________________________________________________

Ezekiel 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


The verses are not referring to Christians and the church, keras.
 
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keras

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Your explanation is flawed.

The dead in Christ rise first. Before them alive in Christ.

You have it backwards, saying that the alive in Christ, at His Return, will rule with him; then a thousand years later the dead in Christ rise for the GWT.
1 Thess 4:16 says; the dead in Christ will rise first......
It doesn't say ALL the dead and it is illogical to think it does.
Also a contradiction of Revelation 20:4, where it clearly says; only the martyrs killed during the GT will be brought back to life.

So the belief of every Christian rising at the Return, is wrong and you should retract your false statement above.
But they are, because we Christians are the Chosen people of God, John 15:14-19, +
We are the Israel of God, by our faith and perhaps by ethnicity from the House of Israel.
We are the Overcomers for Him [literally His Israelites] and the Jews have lost the Kingdom by their own choices. Matthew 27:25
These are truths that you deny to your discredit.

Please explain my question;
But the clincher is how God's holy people are seen in the holy Land before the GT. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
This truth destroys the 'rapture' believers notion that the Jews go thru the GT and finally become Christian just before Jesus Returns, or a similar scenario.
How can the Jews be the holy people before the Great Tribulation?
 
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1 Thess 4:16 says; the dead in Christ will rise first......
verse 15:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

How do you explain that, according to you, nobody of them who was in those days alive, were left until the coming of the Lord?
 
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Douggg

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1 Thess 4:16 says; the dead in Christ will rise first......
It doesn't say ALL the dead and it is illogical to think it does.
1Thessalonians4:16 is not referring to all the dead, but them who are dead in Christ - i.e. Christians who have passed away.

The dead in Christ rise first, resurrected. Then the living in Christ are translated.

You have it backwards. You are claiming that them who reign and rule with Christ for the millennium are the living, and the dead in Christ don't rise until the GWT judgment.
So the belief of every Christian rising at the Return, is wrong and you should retract your false statement above.
No-one is saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place the day Jesus Returns.

The dead in Christ are resurrected during the rapture/resurrection event in 1Thessalonians4, at an unknown time, it could take place anytime. The only limitation is that is has to happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

How can the Jews be the holy people before the Great Tribulation?
I have already explained why the Jews are said to be a chosen people. Citing Ezekiel 39 and Ezekiel 36, in my post #63.

The verses you are citing in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 take place during the great tribulation, not before. The Jews will turn to Jesus during the great tribulation.
 
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keras

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The verses you are citing in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 take place during the great tribulation, not before. The Jews will turn to Jesus during the great tribulation.
You Dougg, are a person who makes scripture mean what you want it to. You are devious, you avoid the scriptures that prove you wrong and to say what you have above shows that you don't even bother to read the Bible properly.
Daniel 7:25b ...the holy ones will be delivered into his power for a time, times and half a time.
Revelation 13:5-7 the beast was allowed 42 months …..he waged war on God's people and defeats them.
These verses are indisputable proof that Gods people are in the holy Land when the GT commences.

You also ignore the many scriptures that say the Jews will be punished and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27
The idea of a general Jewish redemption is not in the Bible. That is of course, why you fail to support your false beliefs with scripture.
 
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Douggg

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Daniel 7:25b ...the holy ones will be delivered into his power for a time, times and half a time.
Revelation 13:5-7 the beast was allowed 42 months …..he waged war on God's people and defeats them.
These verses are indisputable proof that Gods people are in the holy Land when the GT commences.
Those verses indicate how long the saints will be persecuted. It does not mean that they have entered Israel as Christians before the time, times, half time begin.

The saints will be persecuted during the second half of the 7 years. During which time, the Jews, and a multitude from other nations, peoples, tongues, kindreds, will have turned to Jesus as well. Regarding Israel, the Jews, it is in Revelation 12:10.

The placement of the time frames during the seven years is as follows:

The first half

1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

In the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:9-11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

You also ignore the many scriptures that say the Jews will be punished and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27
It is not a secret that the Jews have been persecuted and killed over the passed two thousand years. Yet, there they are in Israel, a nation born again in a single day just like it says in Isaiah 66:8, May 14, 1948.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is not in the Bible.
It's right in the bible in Ezekiel 39.


Ezekiel 39:
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Keras, it is not talking about the church or Christians. But Israel and the Jews.



That is of course, why you fail to support your false beliefs with scripture.
You don't recognize Ezekiel 39 as scripture?
 
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keras

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Keras, it is not talking about the church or Christians. But Israel and the Jews.
Where you go wrong, is thinking the Jews are the only people descended from Jacob. They just represent the House of Judah, but the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes remains scattered among the nations. A vast uncountable number. Isaiah 10:22, Hosea 1:10
They are the ones Jesus referred to in Matthew 15:24, John 10:16
He sent the Apostles to preach the Gospel to them, called by the Jews as Gentiles, John 7:35, but they and Josephus too, knew who and where they were. They accepted Christianity, so Jesus' Mission did not fail.
Thinking that the Jews are the only Israelites, does mean that Jesus failed, as they continue in rejection of Jesus.

So your quote of Ezekiel applies to we Christians. If it doesn't, then there is a scriptural anomaly, as many prophesies tell of the virtual wipeout of Judah in the end times. Romans 9:27
 
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Douggg

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Where you go wrong, is thinking the Jews are the only people descended from Jacob. They just represent the House of Judah, but the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes remains scattered among the nations. A vast uncountable number. Isaiah 10:22, Hosea 1:10
They are the ones Jesus referred to in Matthew 15:24, John 10:16
He sent the Apostles to preach the Gospel to them, called by the Jews as Gentiles, John 7:35, but they and Josephus too, knew who and where they were. They accepted Christianity, so Jesus' Mission did not fail.
Thinking that the Jews are the only Israelites, does mean that Jesus failed, as they continue in rejection of Jesus.
Jews and the people of Israel are synonymous in application.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
___________________________

Luke 23:37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
___________________________

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

So your quote of Ezekiel applies to we Christians. If it doesn't, then there is a scriptural anomaly, as many prophesies tell of the virtual wipeout of Judah in the end times. Romans 9:27
No, it doesn't. The church and Christians did not go into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Jesus, that therefore he hid His face from them. Jesus Himself is speaking in both these text.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
 
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keras

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Jews and the people of Israel are synonymous in application.
.
Purely their unproveable claim. Revelation 3:9
It is quite obvious to all who are without another agenda, that the Jewish State of Israel is NOT the people that God wants in His holy Land. Soon to change dramatically; Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
No, it doesn't. The church and Christians did not go into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Jesus, that therefore he hid His face from them. Jesus Himself is speaking in both these text.
Who went into exile was the House of Israel and then the House of Judah. In 721-15 and 586 BC respectively. Separate exiles and separate peoples in the world. Proved by Ezekiel 4:4-6
Why is it so hard for you to see these truths?
 
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Douggg

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Purely their unproveable claim. Revelation 3:9
It is quite obvious to all who are without another agenda, that the Jewish State of Israel is NOT the people that God wants in His holy Land. Soon to change dramatically; Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
Unprovable, even by Jesus's words? And Isaiah 66:8?

You are misapplying some scriptures, and coming up with a end times scenario that makes no sense. The depopulation of the middle east by a solar event - and in the aftermath, Christians around the world will all move to the devastated land of Israel. Which physically could not hold the world's Christian population.

And you think that Christian families, mom's and dad's say with a family of five, will pull their kids out of school, quit their jobs, abandoned their careers, and move to a decimated land, that will be packed like sardines with other Christians who don't even speak the same language - to fulfill some notion that you have created ? That makes no sense.

Who went into exile was the House of Israel and then the House of Judah. In 721-15 and 586 BC respectively. Separate exiles and separate peoples in the world. Proved by Ezekiel 4:4-6
The northern ten tribes, called Israel, went into the Assyrian captivity. The southern two tribes, called Judah, went into Babylonian captivity. Both captivities for idol worship.

Them of the Babylonian captivity had an en-masse return initiated by decrees of the conquering kings of the Medes-Persians. Them of the Assyrian captivity did not have en-mass return. But by Jesus's words for the disciples to take the message of the kingdom to the lost sheep of Israel in the land indicates that they had returned over time prior to his first coming.
 
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keras

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Unprovable, even by Jesus's words? And Isaiah 66:8?
I have before, maybe twice by now; proved to you that the prophecy in Isaiah 66:7-9, does NOT apply to the Jewish State of Israel. The birth of that nation took 50 years and they never received the Promises of Isaiah 66:10-14
Why do you repeat your errors?
You are misapplying some scriptures, and coming up with a end times scenario that makes no sense. The depopulation of the middle east by a solar event - and in the aftermath, Christians around the world will all move to the devastated land of Israel. Which physically could not hold the world's Christian population.

And you think that Christian families, mom's and dad's say with a family of five, will pull their kids out of school, quit their jobs, abandoned their careers, and move to a decimated land, that will be packed like sardines with other Christians who don't even speak the same language - to fulfill some notion that you have created ? That makes no sense.
It is your failure to read and understand the prophecies, that makes no sense.

I will give the Land to new owners:
Zephaniah 3:1-8
Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.
The people who ‘won’t take correction and trust their Creator’, is the Jewish State of Israel.

The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.
Judah has been punished and exiled before; by Babylon and by Rome. But as Ezekiel 21:1-14 tells us, there will be a third time:

Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.
This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. Habakkuk 3:12 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +

Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practice evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.
This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9
The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. Isaiah 56:6-8
People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12

Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.
On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.

Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.

This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.
It tells how Jerusalem is denigrated and polluted by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted and gone, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivor’s of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14

...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?

Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]

We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.
What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.
It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not be allowed to enter the Land of Israel.

In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage for them. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.
Great will be that time!
 
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Douggg

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I have before, maybe twice by now; proved to you that the prophecy in Isaiah 66:7-9, does NOT apply to the Jewish State of Israel. The birth of that nation took 50 years and they never received the Promises of Isaiah 66:10-14
I think you should be saying the pregnancy period. Born in a single day May 14, 1948.



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Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.
The people who ‘won’t take correction and trust their Creator’, is the Jewish State of Israel.

What prophets and priests and priests are you talking about? There is no temple in Israel; therefore, no priests. And don't know of any Jew over there recognized as a prophet.
 
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keras

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I think you should be saying the pregnancy period. Born in a single day May 14, 1948.

What prophets and priests and priests are you talking about? There is no temple in Israel; therefore, no priests. And don't know of any Jew over there recognized as a prophet.
Which day?
The State of Israel was proclaimed on 14th May 1948, but was not ratified by the United Nations until 11th May 1949.
I would call that year; labor pangs, especially as they had to fight off the Arabs in that time.
But Isaiah 66:7 says for the new Israel, there will be no labor pains.
This prophecy is for a different time; still future and the new Christian nation of Beulah will be born in one Day, the Day the Lord clears and cleanses all of the holy Land. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +

We are told who will be His priests; Revelation 5:10, Isaiah 66:18b-21
 
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Douggg

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This prophecy is for a different time; still future and the new Christian nation of Beulah will be born in one Day, the Day the Lord clears and cleanses all of the holy Land.
According to you, Israel destroyed in one day. And that the notion you have that Christians will then, for no reason, migrate to a devastated land in order to fulfill your scenario, and after being there rebuilding, crawling over each other, packed like sardines, in an area incapable of holding the worldwide Christian population, that over a long time, create a government of sorts - makes no sense, and is not a nation born in on day.

The real Jews and the real house of Israel had a reason to yearn for return to the land of their forefathers, to the land from whence they came.
 
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keras

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@keras

Aren't you supposed to be fixing your screen-name information to remove "Pentecostal" ?
Even my wife couldn't do it!
According to you, Israel destroyed in one day. And that the notion you have that Christians will then, for no reason, migrate to a devastated land in order to fulfill your scenario, and after being there rebuilding, crawling over each other, packed like sardines, in an area incapable of holding the worldwide Christian population, that over a long time, create a government of sorts - makes no sense, and is not a nation born in on day.

The real Jews and the real house of Israel had a reason to yearn for return to the land of their forefathers, to the land from whence they came.
This reply shows an abysmal ignorance of Bible prophecy.

We Christians are God's holy people. The holy Land is rightfully our heritage. Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29
The Patriarchs are our ancestors too, by faith as well as by descent for the Western Christians. Galatians 3:26-29, Isaiah 51:1-2

The holy land encompasses all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Genesis 15:18 Thousands of square miles!
It will be quickly regenerated after the Lords Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 29:17, Isaiah 51:3, Joel 2:21-24, Jeremiah 33:12-13, +

We will choose our own leaders. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21

Do you want to go to heaven Douggg? What do you expect to do there? What earthly use will you be?
I know that I will be going to live in the holy Land, where we Christians will be the people God always wanted there, but has never yet had. His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
 
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keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
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:doh: I think in that case you maybe could ask the moderators for some help.
My avatar is OK as is.

What should be bothering you, is all your beliefs that don't relate to what scripture actually says.
You are a prime example of a person who has accepted teachings without carefully ascertaining their Biblical support. And as Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us; people who do believe in false teachings, will have their understanding clouded and it becomes very difficult to change beliefs.
But not impossible, as many people I know and have heard of; have renounced the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church and come to the realization that the Jewish State of Israel is a godless entity; the fake Israel.
Knowing that the real Israelites of God: every faithful Christian has the amazing destiny of being His people in His holy Land, is a great comfort in these troubled times.

In this thread I show the Bible prophecies proveing that an Islamic confederation will attempt to wipe Israel off the map. The Iranian leadership is under great pressure from their people, they must do something to gain credibility and support.
Many prophesies say how it will be at the moment of attack, the Lord will arise and destroy them all. Ezekiel 7:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Psalms 83,
Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Amos 1 & Amos 2:1-5, all say how the Lord will carry out His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath. Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7

Knowing about the forthcoming sudden and unexpected Day, will be a great help to all, as we take shelter, Isaiah 26:20-21, and call upon His Name; Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
 
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