sovereigngrace

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sovereign grace,

1. Why do you say Christians need to get into the throne room message when you don’t practice what you preach? You don’t believe in the five or 7 fold ministry why? Jerry kelso

What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?
 
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jerry kelso

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What second coming passage (other than your view of Rev 20 - which Amillennialists reject) supports your view of deception being lifted off the Gentiles for 1,000 literal years followed by the notable widespread millennial evangelistic debacle when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)?

The Bible tells us that God “shall send Jesus Christ … whom the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain) until the times of restitution (or reconstitution or restoration) of all things” (Acts 3:20). Surely this forbids Pretrib/Premil as that doctrine sees more of the same in its alleged future millennium, including an increase of sin, death and rebellion culminating in an ugly (yet foolish) war against the camp of the saints at the end?

Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Can Premils please tell us what happens to the supposed glorified saints that inhabit this supposed future Premil millennium when the old earth flees away and the new earth arrives at the end of Satan's little season?

Do they experience another catching away (“rapture”) or do they just float off the old earth for a few moments while wrath is poured out?

You say you’re a pastor so why don’t you believe in the 5 and 7 fold ministry? You say you believe in the throne room message but it doesn’t appear you practice it.
You are the one that brought it up so you have to answer to it, put up or shut up.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You say you’re a pastor so why don’t you believe in the 5 and 7 fold ministry? You say you believe in the throne room message but it doesn’t appear you practice it.
You are the one that brought it up so you have to answer to it, put up or shut up.

I will take your avoidance and infantile behavior as an admission that you have no answers to these simple queries. I have no further interest in engaging with such pettiness.
 
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jerry kelso

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I will take your avoidance and infantile behavior as an admission that you have no answers to these simple queries. I have no further interest in engaging with such pettiness.

I asked you simple questions to whether or not you believed in a five fold or seven fold ministry and whether you cast out demons in your ministry and is every one cast out and the same for healing?
You have never fully answered the question.
And my motive wasn’t petty. It was because you made out like everyone didn’t recognize the throne room message. The problem is that you would go to the extreme like you practice it to perfection. But your reluctance answers to the question and then halfway answer to one part but not another showed the perception of not practicing what you preach.
That wasn’t personal, but I wanted to see if it was prevalent and it doesn’t look like it is. I am not sure you believe in it because you won’t give a full answer or sometimes an answer at all. You expect it out of me but not out of you.
So I don’t think you should engage in pettiness anymore.
 
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David Kent

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You know you can't heal anymore than "Mary" can at Lourdes. A friend of mine who was born disabled was taken from one pentecostal healing meeting to another by his parents, who believed in healing, but he is now about 70 and is still disabled.
A Baptist pastor, I know said he spent 15 years in a Pentecostal church and attended many healing meetings in that time, says he never saw one healing.

Another preacher I know was in the pentecostal cult and said he used to "Cast out Demons", told me that he now shudders at the thought of it. I asked him what he thought about John Wimber. He said that he considered him on a par with Paul Daniels, but without the panache.
 
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jerry kelso

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You know you can't heal anymore than "Mary" can at Lourdes. A friend of mine who was born disabled was taken from one pentecostal healing meeting to another by his parents, who believed in healing, but he is now about 70 and is still disabled.
A Baptist pastor, I know said he spent 15 years in a Pentecostal church and attended many healing meetings in that time, says he never saw one healing.

Another preacher I know was in the pentecostal cult and said he used to "Cast out Demons", told me that he now shudders at the thought of it. I asked him what he thought about John Wimber. He said that he considered him on a par with Paul Daniels, but without the panache.

davidkent,

1. Nobody can heal of their own power.
That was not the point of the conversation even though the other party wanted to make that an issue.

2. Satan has false cults whether Pentecostal in nature or any other kind of cult.
And there are churches that have no healings including many baptist and other denominations who think healings were done away and some don’t get into that issue.
Is that to negate the real healings that happen?
I saw a person’s leg grow out when I was younger and miracles can come in different ways.
So biblically, I don’t see what your point is. Jerry Kelso
 
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David Kent

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davidkent,

1. Nobody can heal of their own power.
That was not the point of the conversation even though the other party wanted to make that an issue.

2. Satan has false cults whether Pentecostal in nature or any other kind of cult.
And there are churches that have no healings including many baptist and other denominations who think healings were done away and some don’t get into that issue.
Is that to negate the real healings that happen?
I saw a person’s leg grow out when I was younger and miracles can come in different ways.
So biblically, I don’t see what your point is. Jerry Kelso

As baptists we do not seek a healing ministry, but we do pray for healing those who are ill. God heals according to his sovereign will.
 
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Guojing

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As baptists we do not seek a healing ministry, but we do pray for healing those who are ill. God heals according to his sovereign will.

If you have kids and they have fallen ill, will you as a father do anything to make sure they are healed?
 
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David Kent

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If you have kids and they have fallen ill, will you as a father do anything to make sure they are healed?

Yes I would take them to a doctor as well as to pray for them.
 
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Guojing

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Yes I would take them to a doctor as well as to pray for them.

So similar to what Jesus said, if you who are "evil" wants your children to be well, how much more would your Father in heaven want you and your children to be well too.

Understand that it is always God's will to heal, the problem is never on God's side.
 
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jerry kelso

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As baptists we do not seek a healing ministry, but we do pray for healing those who are ill. God heals according to his sovereign will.

davidkent,

1. I should clarify; I agree with you and that was my point.
2. There are sects that believe healing was done away with after Paul’s ministry ended. They base this on 1 Corinthians 13 of the passing away etc. I don’t really know how they get that out of that context for the Perfect hasn’t come verse 10.

3. God’s will is always sovereign in the supernatural.
We are to have the elders to pray for the sick such as in James 5:14-15.
1 Corinthians 12:9; has gifts of healings by the same spirit for all the other gifts, such as word of wisdom, knowledge, faith, prophecy, discerning of spirits different kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues.
These are all tied into one body of Christ with many members who are supposed to work together in harmony.
These should utilize the gifts God gives people available for the benefit of the body of Christ.
Christ wants no schism in the body and wants us to care for one another 1 Corinthians 12:25.

4. The perception that healing should be limited and obvious to the eye is not a good idea. If that was applied to the discerning of the spirits this gift would not be used or need for.

5. If a church doesn’t have those gifts I understand, but I don’t think a church should have the mindset that they shouldn’t be pursued in when God has a specific purpose for the church despite the extremists.
Are we not to follow after God’s will? Is healing not his will? Does he just pick and choose who he wants to heal when he wants to move? In certain cases but most have the five point Calvinist view where the reasoning was why Calvin didn’t believe in evangelization because God picks and choose whom he wants to save.
If you are more Southern Baptist you may not understand some gifts or not think they are not as important because we are to earnestly covet the best gifts.
I as being Pentecostal have seen people used of these gifts and fell short of the fruits of the Spirit and some want to avoid these visible gifts.
There are a thousand reasons why churches don’t move in these gifts but it shouldn’t be that way if we really want all of God to touch and save humanity . Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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Most criticism of Dispensationalism has centered on the Rapture, the most well known belief of Dispensationalists. Much criticism has been focused on their treatment of Jews and Israel, which sometimes sets up a two-tiered scheme of salvation. A lot of criticism has been focused on Dispensationalism as a surprisingly recent belief system. Dispensationalists are extreme literalists but this doesn't mean that they agree with other literalists.

As we shall see, the Dispensationalists say that the crucifixion of Christ and the entire church age that followed, is only a "parenthesis" in God's plan. God's original plan is on hold. Most Christians find this rather jarring, considering the emphasis that Paul put on "Christ crucified." A critic would say that the whole notion of a parenthesis is only needed to make their end-of-the-world calculations come out right.

This thread focuses on the most basic idea of Dispensationalism, besides dispensations. Dispensationalism claims that God offered the Jews a chance to make Jesus their earthly King. Jesus would then have overthrown the Romans and established Israel as a theocratic Kingdom, eventually covering the world. Since this was God's original plan, Christianity came about when the Jews rejected the Kingship of Jesus. God went to Plan B, which included the (crucifixion), the (resurrection), the (ascension), (Pentecost), and the (church age).

"This offer of the kingdom which was extended through Christ, John, and the disciples to the nation [Israel] was rejected by that nation, notwithstanding the fact that it was in complete fulfillment of every divinely given prediction. It was a bona fide offer and, had they received Him as their King, the nation's hope would have been realized."

Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Collected Works of Lewis Sperry Chafer - Seven books in one. Jawbone Digital. Kindle Edition. The Kingdom in History and Prophecy, Chapter V: The Kingdom Rejected and Postponed, Kindle location 3470-3473.

Chafer (1871-1952) founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. He is one of the most frequently quoted Dispensationalists. According to Chafer, there are seven Dispensations in the Bible. Other interpreters have added or subtracted from this. More conventional theologians say there are only two, the Old Testament and the New Testament.

The claim of a Kingdom offer made by Chafer and other Dispensationalists is flatly contrary to the Bible. It also leaves Christian theology in chaos.

"14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself."
John 6: 14-15 NIV

According to John, it was not the Jews who rejected the offer of a Kingdom, but Jesus who fled from those who wanted to make Him a King. Jesus did not intend to lead a revolt against Rome and local monarchs like Herod.

There are other Gospel verses that contradict Chafer's notion of Jesus setting up a theocratic Jewish kingdom.

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]
Luke 17:20-21 NIV
c:Luke 17:21 Or is within you

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Lo, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[c]
Luke 17: 20-21 RSV
c: Luke 17:21 Or within you

When the Pharisees ask when is the Kingdom coming, Jesus doesn't say that the Jews have to accept a theocratic kingdom for it to happen. Instead He says that the Kingdom of Heaven is more subtle than the one they are expecting.

Rev. Chafer's notion that the crucifixion wasn't planed from the beginning is apparently contradicted by this verse.

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.
John 6:70-71 RSV

It looks like Judas was chosen as an Apostle precisely because the crucifixion was the plan from the beginning.

This is totally spot on!!!

If the cross is not enough for Israel then they are damned and doomed for all eternity. But salvation is open to them today in the exact same way as it is for us. It is through the one all-sufficient sacrifice for sin on the cross 2000 years ago alone that men are saved. That is it! If they embrace the cross they will go to heaven, if reject they it they will go to hell. It is that simple! There is no other hope!

Revelation 13:8 tells us that Christ was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” He was predestined to come into this world as a substitutionary sacrifice, without which no man could be saved. 1 Peter 1:19 confirms that Christ was “a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.” There was a predetermined blueprint that Christ had to fulfil – He did perfectly.

Calvary was an important part of God's Sovereign plan for fallen-man. Our salvation was secured in eternity because God lives and works in eternity. It was experientially realized in time, because man is born and lives in time. Christ performed the Father's will for our lives - by dying for us. The Holy Spirit applied the Father's will to our lives – by convicting us and regenerating us.

Dispensationalists argue that it is all about the bloodline, and they are right, however, they focus in on the wrong bloodline. They choose the natural bloodline of Abraham instead of the ongoing blood atonement system God has provided as a means of redemption for the penitent sinners. The blood covenant provides a spiritual covering for all those who have entered into a personal experiential covenant relationship with God. This whole arrangement began in the Garden, continued through their righteous son Abel, and continues still today through the cross-work.

The Old Testament prophets predicted the manner of Messiah’s ministry and the focus of His earthly mission. They foretold the time that He would come. They described His assignment and detailed His accomplishments. They depicted a suffering servant coming to redeem Israel from their sin. They portrayed the resistance He would experience. They forecast His rejection and the cross.

The angel of the Lord summed up Christ’s mission on earth when he spoke to Joseph in a dream about the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:20–21: “Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Christ had a task to fulfil and goals to achieve. Everything He encountered and when He encountered it was part of a preordained plan for Him. That plan captivated His whole time on this earth from the cradle to the cross. Jesus testified in Luke 19:10: “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.” Jesus was a man on a mission. He came to help fallen man. 1 Timothy 1:15 declares, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”

Christ actually came to rescue us and save us from our sin. He knew our predicament and He came to help. He came for the broken, the hurting, the broken, the confused and the lost. He came to rescue people in a fallen state. Jesus tells us in John 3:16-17: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

When Jesus came 2000 years ago He was on a mission of love from start to finish. Heaven couldn’t have given mankind a greater gift. His whole life was love: every word He said and every deed He did was saturated in love. His death was the final and eternal seal of that love pertaining to His ministry on this earth.

Those old covenant saints that had eyes to see fully grasped the spiritual assignment of the Messiah Christ. They knew that He was coming to redeem His people from their sins. The song of Mary, the Magnificat, shows that, connecting Christ’s birth to the fulfilment of His mission, to save His people. Mary praises Him: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” (Luke 1:46-47).

John the Baptist’s father Zacharias, who was filled with the Holy Ghost, prophesied in Luke 1:68-75: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.”

The elect remnant of Israel had a spiritual awareness of Christ’s mission. Redemption was the central aspect of Messiah’s mission to earth. Israel needed the sin question addressed more than any other issue. This was man’s greatest affliction. Right was His birth redemption was the great spiritual assignment laid upon His shoulders.

The coming redeemer was anticipated by Simeon who faithfully waited for His appearing in Luke 2:30-35, where he acknowledged: “For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel … Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Redemption was no secondary thought. It was no Plan B. It was the duty Jesus came to realize and He accomplished it perfectly. Anna, the prophetess, announced the same in Luke 2:38: “she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.” Obviously, those who knew the Old Testament Scriptures, and were blessed with eyes to see, were fully aware that redemption was at the forefront of the Messiah’s ministry. The enlightened old covenant saints awaited the promised redeemer with great anticipation. This was central to their faith and necessary for their eternal redemption.

The language of Messianic fulfilment is written throughout the New Testament pages. John the Baptist introduced Christ in John 1:31, as “he that was to be … made manifest to Israel.” Simeon testified He was the “consolation of Israel” (Luke 2:25). Paul describes Him in Acts 28:20 as “the hope of Israel.” He is the eternal fulfilment of the vision and prophecy.

John the Baptist introduced Christ in John 1:29-30: “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.”

John the Baptist was familiar with Old Testament prophecy, as that is all he had. He recognized that animal sacrifices were coming to an end because Jesus Christ, the ultimate and perfect sacrifice, had arrived. He was the desire of every true Israelite from the beginning.

Christ’s focus and His mission were to redeem His people. This was central to His Gospel message. He told the disciples in Mark 8:27-31 (paralleling Matthew 16:21 and Luke 9:22): “And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.”

Christ perfectly succeeded in His mission. Contrary to false Dispy teaching, Jesus did not come to set up a literal physical earthly Davidic kingdom, He came to die for our sins. This is another of countless fallacies that are attached to Dispensationalism.
 
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Guojing

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Christ perfectly succeeded in His mission. Contrary to false Dispy teaching, Jesus did not come to set up a literal physical earthly Davidic kingdom, He came to die for our sins. This is another of countless fallacies that are attached to Dispensationalism.

And we now see a spiritual lamb lying down with a spiritual wolf somewhere in the world?
 
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sovereigngrace

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And we now see a spiritual lamb lying down with a spiritual wolf somewhere in the world?

Those who encounter Christ encounter peace. Those who are in heaven now in Christ are realizing that great reality also. When the new heavens and new earth come we will see it in its fullness. Nowhere in Scripture does it apply that to some imaginary future millennium.
 
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mkgal1

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And we now see a spiritual lamb lying down with a spiritual wolf somewhere in the world?
Figuratively - yes.

I believe the spiritual "wolves" were the Gentiles. That "peaceful kingdom" was fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Quoting Adam Maarschalk: The wolf is now dwelling with the lamb, and this has been true for two millennium. Is this a surprising statement? While this is not true in the animal kingdom, it is most certainly true in Christ, for His Church. I’m referring, of course, to two well-known parallel passages in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65.

On what authority do I say that this is a present reality? The authority I stand on is the New Testament, which interprets the Old Testament far better than I ever could. Specifically, I would point to the testimony of the apostle Paul in Romans 15. The short study that follows already exists on this blog, but it’s buried in a longer post regarding Revelation 20 and the millennium. It’s a valuable study, so I’d like to re-post it here on its own. Terry Cropper has also posted this study on his “New Jerusalem Community” site (at this link). As Terry says, “Seven centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ, the prophet Isaiah peered into the future and depicted the glorious nature of the Messianic era with these words.”

In what sense is the wolf now dwelling with the lamb (Isaiah 11:6), the cow and the bear grazing together (verse 7), the nursing child playing over the hole of the cobra (verse 8), and the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord (verse 9)? Good question—let’s ask the apostle Paul. He quoted the next verse as being fulfilled in his own lifetime: “IN THAT DAY the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of Him shall the nations inquire, and His resting place shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10). Romans 15:12, where Paul cites this verse, reads this way: “The root of Jesse will come, even He who arises to rule the Gentiles, in Him will the Gentiles hope” (Romans 15:12).

The context of both Isaiah 11 and Romans 15 suggests a bringing together in Christ the remnant of God’s people from among both the Jews and the Gentiles. Isaiah uses figurative language; Paul in Romans is more straightforward. Why not? The “mystery of God” spoken of by the prophets had been revealed and was about to be fulfilled in Paul’s day (compare Ephesians 3:6 with Revelation 10:7).

“This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus (Romans 10:12-13; Galatians 3:28, 5:6, 6:15-16); “the dividing wall of hostility” has been broken down (Eph. 2:14).

The wolf (Gentiles), so to speak, now dwells safely with the lamb (Jews), i.e. among those who belong to Christ. The Gentile nations which were deceived and dwelling “far off” (Ephesians 2:11-22; Romans 9:22-26) prior to Christ’s work on the cross are now brought near (so that without distinction “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”; Romans 10:12-13).
~ Romans 15 Shows That Isaiah 11 Is Fulfilled

ETA: Jeremiah 5
Jeremiah 5
NLT
The Sins of Judah
1“Run up and down every street in Jerusalem,” says the Lord.
“Look high and low; search throughout the city!
If you can find even one just and honest person,
I will not destroy the city.
2But even when they are under oath,
saying, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’
they are still telling lies!”

3Lord, you are searching for honesty.
You struck your people,
but they paid no attention.
You crushed them,
but they refused to be corrected.
They are determined, with faces set like stone;
they have refused to repent.

4Then I said, “But what can we expect from the poor?
They are ignorant.
They don’t know the ways of the Lord.
They don’t understand God’s laws.
5So I will go and speak to their leaders.
Surely they know the ways of the Lord
and understand God’s laws.”
But the leaders, too, as one man,
had thrown off God’s yoke
and broken his chains.
6So now a lion from the forest will attack them;
a wolf from the desert will pounce on them.
A leopard will lurk near their towns,
tearing apart any who dare to venture
out.
For their rebellion is great,
and their sins are many.

7“How can I pardon you?
For even your children have turned from me.
They have sworn by gods that are not gods at all!
I fed my people until they were full.
But they thanked me by committing adultery
and lining up at the brothels.
8They are well-fed, lusty stallions,
each neighing for his neighbor’s wife.
9Should I not punish them for this?” says the Lord.
“Should I not avenge myself against such a nation?

John Gill's exposition: Isaiah 11 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible
 
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Guojing

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Figuratively - yes.

I believe the spiritual "wolves" were the Gentiles. That "peaceful kingdom" was fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Quoting Adam Maarschalk: The wolf is now dwelling with the lamb, and this has been true for two millennium. Is this a surprising statement? While this is not true in the animal kingdom, it is most certainly true in Christ, for His Church. I’m referring, of course, to two well-known parallel passages in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65.

On what authority do I say that this is a present reality? The authority I stand on is the New Testament, which interprets the Old Testament far better than I ever could. Specifically, I would point to the testimony of the apostle Paul in Romans 15. The short study that follows already exists on this blog, but it’s buried in a longer post regarding Revelation 20 and the millennium. It’s a valuable study, so I’d like to re-post it here on its own. Terry Cropper has also posted this study on his “New Jerusalem Community” site (at this link). As Terry says, “Seven centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ, the prophet Isaiah peered into the future and depicted the glorious nature of the Messianic era with these words.”

In what sense is the wolf now dwelling with the lamb (Isaiah 11:6), the cow and the bear grazing together (verse 7), the nursing child playing over the hole of the cobra (verse 8), and the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord (verse 9)? Good question—let’s ask the apostle Paul. He quoted the next verse as being fulfilled in his own lifetime: “IN THAT DAY the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of Him shall the nations inquire, and His resting place shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10). Romans 15:12, where Paul cites this verse, reads this way: “The root of Jesse will come, even He who arises to rule the Gentiles, in Him will the Gentiles hope” (Romans 15:12).

The context of both Isaiah 11 and Romans 15 suggests a bringing together in Christ the remnant of God’s people from among both the Jews and the Gentiles. Isaiah uses figurative language; Paul in Romans is more straightforward. Why not? The “mystery of God” spoken of by the prophets had been revealed and was about to be fulfilled in Paul’s day (compare Ephesians 3:6 with Revelation 10:7).

“This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus (Romans 10:12-13; Galatians 3:28, 5:6, 6:15-16); “the dividing wall of hostility” has been broken down (Eph. 2:14).

The wolf (Gentiles), so to speak, now dwells safely with the lamb (Jews), i.e. among those who belong to Christ. The Gentile nations which were deceived and dwelling “far off” (Ephesians 2:11-22; Romans 9:22-26) prior to Christ’s work on the cross are now brought near (so that without distinction “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”; Romans 10:12-13).
~ Romans 15 Shows That Isaiah 11 Is Fulfilled

ETA: Jeremiah 5
Jeremiah 5
NLT
The Sins of Judah
1“Run up and down every street in Jerusalem,” says the Lord.
“Look high and low; search throughout the city!
If you can find even one just and honest person,
I will not destroy the city.
2But even when they are under oath,
saying, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’
they are still telling lies!”

3Lord, you are searching for honesty.
You struck your people,
but they paid no attention.
You crushed them,
but they refused to be corrected.
They are determined, with faces set like stone;
they have refused to repent.

4Then I said, “But what can we expect from the poor?
They are ignorant.
They don’t know the ways of the Lord.
They don’t understand God’s laws.
5So I will go and speak to their leaders.
Surely they know the ways of the Lord
and understand God’s laws.”
But the leaders, too, as one man,
had thrown off God’s yoke
and broken his chains.
6So now a lion from the forest will attack them;
a wolf from the desert will pounce on them.
A leopard will lurk near their towns,
tearing apart any who dare to venture
out.
For their rebellion is great,
and their sins are many.

7“How can I pardon you?
For even your children have turned from me.
They have sworn by gods that are not gods at all!
I fed my people until they were full.
But they thanked me by committing adultery
and lining up at the brothels.
8They are well-fed, lusty stallions,
each neighing for his neighbor’s wife.
9Should I not punish them for this?” says the Lord.
“Should I not avenge myself against such a nation?

John Gill's exposition: Isaiah 11 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

How do you know you have spiritualize it correctly? If you meet another with a different spiritual interpretation of lamb and wolves, who is right and who is wrong?
 
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Guojing

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Those who encounter Christ encounter peace. Those who are in heaven now in Christ are realizing that great reality also. When the new heavens and new earth come we will see it in its fullness. Nowhere in Scripture does it apply that to some imaginary future millennium.

So what you consider as a future event "When the new heavens and new earth come", others see it as the 1000 year millennial reign.

Either way, Isaiah 11:6 will only come to pass in the future.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So what you consider as a future event "When the new heavens and new earth come", others see it as the 1000 year millennial reign.

Either way, Isaiah 11:6 will only come to pass in the future.

I just put this on another thread:

Some of these relates to the success of the Gospel in the intra-Advent period, others refer to the NHNE. There is no future millennium mention here in these texts. It is never going to happen!!!

It symbolically depicts the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

Premils are quick to connect Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:17-25, but in doing so this begs an important question: what or when is Isaiah 65 referring to? Thankfully we don’t need to speculate. The text speaks for itself. Isaiah 65:17 sates: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” Contrary to what Premil insists there is no mention or description of some future millennial period.

When one starts to compare all the Premil proof-texts we start to see some glaring contradictions. In one breath it promotes an age of perfect peace and tranquilly for the animal kingdom where they will not be tearing each other apart (Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25), yet in the text it promotes the mass slaughter of countless innocent lambs and goats in the physical temple in Jerusalem for the whole duration of this age (Ezekiel 40-47 and Zechariah 14:18-19). This is confused contradictory picture, and a bloody mess.

What Premils forget is that Isaiah 11 is expounded within the writings given to us in the New Testament. They provide a clear unambiguous interpretation of such Old Testament prophecies and demonstrate its true fulfillment. The New Testament clearly confirms the current fulfillment of Isaiah 11. Whilst I see references to the eternal state, it is not the bipolar Premil age you speak of but the "new heavens and new earth" (as per Isaiah 65). This passage actually rebuts the location of Isaiah 11 in this so-called millennial age. Here again by your linkage you actually remove another Premil proof text.
 
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Guojing

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I just put this on another thread:

Some of these relates to the success of the Gospel in the intra-Advent period, others refer to the NHNE. There is no future millennium mention here in these texts. It is never going to happen!!!

It symbolically depicts the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

Premils are quick to connect Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:17-25, but in doing so this begs an important question: what or when is Isaiah 65 referring to? Thankfully we don’t need to speculate. The text speaks for itself. Isaiah 65:17 sates: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” Contrary to what Premil insists there is no mention or description of some future millennial period.

When one starts to compare all the Premil proof-texts we start to see some glaring contradictions. In one breath it promotes an age of perfect peace and tranquilly for the animal kingdom where they will not be tearing each other apart (Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25), yet in the text it promotes the mass slaughter of countless innocent lambs and goats in the physical temple in Jerusalem for the whole duration of this age (Ezekiel 40-47 and Zechariah 14:18-19). This is confused contradictory picture, and a bloody mess.

What Premils forget is that Isaiah 11 is expounded within the writings given to us in the New Testament. They provide a clear unambiguous interpretation of such Old Testament prophecies and demonstrate its true fulfillment. The New Testament clearly confirms the current fulfillment of Isaiah 11. Whilst I see references to the eternal state, it is not the bipolar Premil age you speak of but the "new heavens and new earth" (as per Isaiah 65). This passage actually rebuts the location of Isaiah 11 in this so-called millennial age. Here again by your linkage you actually remove another Premil proof text.

But you agree that Isaiah 11:6 will only happen in the future correct?
 
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