The Two Gospels of the New Testament 12.03.2019

nolidad said:

Well I am a dispensationalist. I have no clue what an Acts 2 or classic dispensationalist means! I believe in the 7 (or 8) standard dispensations. I believe the church was born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which caused the disciples to be born again.

Here are teh dispensation or economies of governance I see and have been taught and teach from the Scriptures:

1. The Dispensation of innocence or freedom. Gen. 1:28-3:8
2. The dispensation of conscience (self determination) Gen. 3:9-8:14
3. The dispensation of human govt. Gen. 8:15-11:32
4. The dispensation of promise or patriarchal rule Gen. 12:1- Ex. 18: 27.
5. The Dispensation of the Law ex. 19:1-Acts 1:26
6. The Dispensation of the church age or grace Acts 2:1-Rev. 19:1
7. Teh dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom REv. 20-1-10

If that has a specific title so be it!

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yes your point 6 clearly states that you believe the grace dispensation or the body of Christ began at acts 2.

those who believed that are classical or act 2 dispy

I can understand why you hold the doctrine that James was written to the church then.

Guojing said:

yes your point 6 clearly states that you believe the grace dispensation or the body of Christ began at acts 2.

those who believed that are classical or act 2 dispy

I can understand why you hold the doctrine that James was written to the church then.

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Who cares? LOL. You are both wrong.

sovereigngrace said:

Who cares? LOL. You are wrong.

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Firstly, that post was not addressed to you.

More importantly, you still haven't realized that in forum discussions, the objective should not be to show that others are wrong and you are correct. People rarely change their minds.

I prefer to understand where the other party is coming from, why he believes the doctrine he has.

nolidad said:

Well I am a dispensationalist. I have no clue what an Acts 2 or classic dispensationalist means! I believe in the 7 (or 8) standard dispensations. I believe the church was born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which caused the disciples to be born again.

Here are teh dispensation or economies of governance I see and have been taught and teach from the Scriptures:

1. The Dispensation of innocence or freedom. Gen. 1:28-3:8
2. The dispensation of conscience (self determination) Gen. 3:9-8:14
3. The dispensation of human govt. Gen. 8:15-11:32
4. The dispensation of promise or patriarchal rule Gen. 12:1- Ex. 18: 27.
5. The Dispensation of the Law ex. 19:1-Acts 1:26
6. The Dispensation of the church age or grace Acts 2:1-Rev. 19:1
7. Teh dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom REv. 20-1-10

If that has a specific title so be it!

Click to expand...

I had a discussion about classical dispy here

Are there dispensationalists who believe Paul's gospel is the same as the one preached in Matt-John?

From my encounter with most classical dispys, they tend to also believe that Peter preach more or less the same gospel as Paul, since they believed that the grace dispensation began at Pentecost.

Is that true for you too?

sovereigngrace said:

Where in scripture does it say that "Jesus postponed the kingdom to a future time"?

Dispensationalists wrongly teach that Christ’s real purpose for coming to this earth was to establish an earthly Jewish kingdom. They say that this was to be a political kingdom centered in Jerusalem where Christ would rule over a dominant Israel and exercise complete control over the nations of the earth. Unfortunately, they make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees did 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. Because of their flawed perception of the kingdom, the Pharisees ended up rejecting Christ.

When Christ appeared at His first advent, many religious Jews imagined the Messiah would introduce an authoritarian Zionistic kingdom, restore Israel’s ancient borders, reinstate the then defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the house of Israel. They thought the anointed One would be a great military leader that would confront Israel’s enemies, and overcome them, freeing them from foreign domination, starting with the Romans.

The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial political kingdom of which the warrior-like liberator would triumphantly rule. These religious apostates believed in ethnic division and racial dominance. They believed that the appearance of Messiah would usher in a period of natural and spiritual bliss for Israel, a time where the nations would be brought into wholesale subjugation. This would be a time of historic and unprecedented justice and peace. Their obsession with the natural, earthly and provisional instead of the spiritual, heavenly and eternal caused them to reject Christ and nail Him to a tree as an impostor.

Dispies speak much about a future Davidic kingdom and argue for its return in a future millennium after the second coming. But they fail to see that the old covenant earthly kings of Israel were not God’s plan but a rebellious invention of man designed to mimic the heathen nations around them. While God permitted them, they only serve as an imperfect distorted type of the perfect heavenly King who reigns today in heavenly Jerusalem

The reality is: Christ never made any attempt to set up a carnal Zionist territorial political kingdom. He didn’t make the slightest attempt to overthrow the Roman rulers. He wasn’t even an earthly king. Nowhere did He try to raise up an earthly army to instigate an nationalist political kingdom. He rather came to reveal a heavenly kingdom which was entered by faith.

The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an earthly ethnic territorial political system. The kingdom He spoke of was spiritual and heavenly. This did not fit in with their carnal expectation. Sadly, Premils still seek after such a faulty expectation in order to justify their flawed future hope. What is more, the natural, physical, earthly ceremonial aspects of the old covenant are obliterated in the New Testament by the new covenant reality. This was presented by the legalistic religious Jewish leaders as evidence of Christ phony credentials.

Man did not, and does not, have the ability to abort or postpone the kingdom. That is a Dispensational invention. The kingdom came 2000 years ago in power. Only those who had eyes to see saw it. It is the same today. Many today have the same mistaken expectation as the blinded Pharisees had. They are looking for a physical material pollical Zionist kingdom. But Jesus brought a spiritual heavenly and eternal kingdom that is entered by faith.

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I take it you do not read much of the OT and the promises of God to give Israel the kingdom God spoke through the prophets.

You have failed to read teh "Lords Prayer" They kingdom come (future tense)

Jesus will sit on that throne for a thousand years.

Jesus announced the kingdom, it was to Israel alone. John the Baptist announced the kingdom. It was to Israel alone!

Matt. 21:43 the kingdom was taken from that generation and will be given to another.

Acts 1 The Apostles ask Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. Why? Because they knew the prophecies> Jesus didn't tell them the kingdom was revoked- instead He said that was up to the Father as to when, but in the meantime they had a job to do.

I can give you hundreds of OT prophecies to show Israel would be regathered to their land (Ez. 38-39) the sinner purged and the kingdom restored!

Jesus made a legitimate offer of giving the kingdom to Israel, knowing they would reject it, and the mystery of the OT (Eph. 2) would come to pass. Just like the kingdom tyo Israel was prophesied, so wasn't the rejection of their Messiah prophesied and their scattering around the world! So wasn't their regathering back to their land prophesied!

That is taking Scripture as written and not retranslated by covenant theologians.and allegorists.

Guojing said:

yes your point 6 clearly states that you believe the grace dispensation or the body of Christ began at acts 2.

those who believed that are classical or act 2 dispy

I can understand why you hold the doctrine that James was written to the church then.

Click to expand...

Well then you did not read my post carefully because I clearly said that James along with 1 Peter and Hebrews were written to Jewish believers in christ- or if we may call it such "The Jewish wing of the church".

Paul was the apostle of Jesus to the Gentiles. Peter, James and John were the Apostles to the Jews!

And as Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:11-20 King James Version (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

This should make it clear-everyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and believes He was raised from the dead- are one body! Teh Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah are part of eh body of Christ as we gentiles. We are all one bride of Christ!

Guojing said:

I had a discussion about classical dispy here

Are there dispensationalists who believe Paul's gospel is the same as the one preached in Matt-John?

From my encounter with most classical dispys, they tend to also believe that Peter preach more or less the same gospel as Paul, since they believed that the grace dispensation began at Pentecost.

Is that true for you too?

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Absolutely!

It is the same gospel! that Jesus died and rose agasin. For Jews it was to show He was the long awaited Messiah and that He had to di first. For gentiles He died for our sin.

They preached the same message, but used different methodologies because they had different audiences. When a Jew accepted Jesus as messiah- He became a member of the body of Christ just like a gentile who trusts Jesus as the Christ and Lord!

nolidad said:

Absolutely!

It is the same gospel! that Jesus died and rose agasin. For Jews it was to show He was the long awaited Messiah and that He had to di first. For gentiles He died for our sin.

They preached the same message, but used different methodologies because they had different audiences. When a Jew accepted Jesus as messiah- He became a member of the body of Christ just like a gentile who trusts Jesus as the Christ and Lord!

Click to expand...

Yep, you are definitely a classical or Acts 2 dispensationalist, since you hold these views.

Curious though, since I don't know many classical dispy, if you believe that the grace dispensation or the Body of Christ began at Acts 2, how do you account for this readng that Jews who believed that Jesus is their Messiah are expected to

1. Keep the Law (Acts 10:28, Acts 21:20, Acts 22:12)
2. Share all their possessions (Acts 4:32, based on what Jesus taught them in Luke 12:33)
   
3. Face possible death by God for breaking the law (Acts 5:4-5)

3 may be the more significant one that I am very curious how classical dispy reconcile. Why was Ananias and Sapphira killed by God for lying if Peter indeed believed, just like Paul, in Galatians 3:13?

The most popular reply I have heard so far is that, Ananias and Sapphira are not "true believers". Is that your view too?

nolidad said:

I take it you do not read much of the OT and the promises of God to give Israel the kingdom God spoke through the prophets.

You have failed to read teh "Lords Prayer" They kingdom come (future tense)

Jesus will sit on that throne for a thousand years.

Jesus announced the kingdom, it was to Israel alone. John the Baptist announced the kingdom. It was to Israel alone!

Matt. 21:43 the kingdom was taken from that generation and will be given to another.

Acts 1 The Apostles ask Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. Why? Because they knew the prophecies> Jesus didn't tell them the kingdom was revoked- instead He said that was up to the Father as to when, but in the meantime they had a job to do.

I can give you hundreds of OT prophecies to show Israel would be regathered to their land (Ez. 38-39) the sinner purged and the kingdom restored!

Jesus made a legitimate offer of giving the kingdom to Israel, knowing they would reject it, and the mystery of the OT (Eph. 2) would come to pass. Just like the kingdom tyo Israel was prophesied, so wasn't the rejection of their Messiah prophesied and their scattering around the world! So wasn't their regathering back to their land prophesied!

That is taking Scripture as written and not retranslated by covenant theologians.and allegorists.

Click to expand...

Please answer my question: Where in scripture does it say that "Jesus postponed the kingdom to a future time"?

I will take it by your avoidance that you have nothing. You are adding 2+2 and getting 22. That is not the way it works. The kingdom came, and is alive and kicking. What is more Christ is reigning over that same kingdom now. The problem is: your teachers have taught you it was going to be a literal physical political Zionist earthly Davidic kingdom, when in fact it was a spiritual heavenly eternal kingdom.

Christ came to introduce a spiritual kingdom that was entered not by sight but only by faith. Jesus declared in John 3:3, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

This is expressly a spiritual kingdom as it relates to the spiritual realm. The blessing and rewards of the kingdom are plainly spiritual in nature and pertain exclusively to the repentant sinner. It relates to the unseen realm where the people are governed by their mediator King. A kingdom must have a king to be considered a kingdom. Christ rules this kingdom, not by force, but love. Those that subject to His authority are administered by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Premil denies Christ His current kingship over His spiritual domain with its constant future focus upon the kinship of Christ. Whilst there is a future aspect to Christ’s kingship, there is also the current reality.

Romans 14:17-18 says, “For the kingdom of God is … righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things (1) serveth Christ (2) is acceptable to God, and (3) approved of men.”

1 Corinthians 4:20 says, “the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power (or) dunámei.”

Q. Is the redeemed Church synonymous with the kingdom of God?

A. The redeemed Church is not strictly the kingdom of God per se; it is part of the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is a lot broader and includes the heavenly realm or territory, which evidently does not come under the more limited definition of the Church. It also includes the Godhead, which does not come under the more limited definition of the Church. It includes the righteous angelic world, which again, is clearly not the Church. The term the kingdom of God is therefore much wider than redeemed sinners – Old and New Testament, it includes the heavenly domain, it's laws, and the unseen world. The Church is restricted to redeemed human beings. Angels cannot be part of the Church, yet they are part of the kingdom.

--Very good. Would the "one gospel" be the "Gospel of the Kingdom" that Jesus Christ preached right out of the starting gate (Matthew 4:23), or would that be the "gospel of the grace of God" that Paul contrasts with "preaching the kingdom" in Acts 20:24-27?

Amazing, the things people will do to try to taint the true gospel. But I think my statement about their being only one gospel should have been plain to anyone not committed to some kind of false notion of multiple gospels.

Amazing, the things people will do to try to smuggle in their own works to someone make salvation depend upon human effort. Because what else would another gospel be, except the idea that Christ's death is not enough to save you? No, you need to "Do your part", you need to "Do your best, and let God do the rest".

So, please, tell us: What works did Jesus command in this separate gospel that we have to do in order to earn salvation from him? And, btw, how about telling us how you're doing in doing all those works? And do be honest, because if you've broken even one of God's commandments, you've as good as broken all of them.

--There is a big problem with your unsupported statements, because Jesus Christ Himself preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM long before dying for anyone.

The whole Bible preaches Christ. As Paul points out quite well in Romans, salvation by grace is an Old Testament doctrine. Abraham was justified by faith; he believed God and that believe was counted to him as righteousness. The believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way as we are--by faith in Christ. They may not have known the name Jesus at those times, but they believed in God and his promises. No one, OT or NT or now, was ever saved by their own works, by their one law-keeping.

--Ouch! That sounds serious

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

That last statement is you to tee, you and anyone else running around claiming there are multiple gospels.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Yes, it is serious. It is very serious.

Bramblewild said:

--Very good. Would the "one gospel" be the "Gospel of the Kingdom" that Jesus Christ preached right out of the starting gate (Matthew 4:23), or would that be the "gospel of the grace of God" that Paul contrasts with "preaching the kingdom" in Acts 20:24-27?

Amazing, the things people will do to try to taint the true gospel. But I think my statement about their being only one gospel should have been plain to anyone not committed to some kind of false notion of multiple gospels.

Amazing, the things people will do to try to smuggle in their own works to someone make salvation depend upon human effort. Because what else would another gospel be, except the idea that Christ's death is not enough to save you? No, you need to "Do your part", you need to "Do your best, and let God do the rest".

So, please, tell us: What works did Jesus command in this separate gospel that we have to do in order to earn salvation from him? And, btw, how about telling us how you're doing in doing all those works? And do be honest, because if you've broken even one of God's commandments, you've as good as broken all of them.

--There is a big problem with your unsupported statements, because Jesus Christ Himself preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM long before dying for anyone.

The whole Bible preaches Christ. As Paul points out quite well in Romans, salvation by grace is an Old Testament doctrine. Abraham was justified by faith; he believed God and that believe was counted to him as righteousness. The believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way as we are--by faith in Christ. They may not have known the name Jesus at those times, but they believed in God and his promises. No one, OT or NT or now, was ever saved by their own works, by their one law-keeping.

--Ouch! That sounds serious

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

That last statement is you to tee, you and anyone else running around claiming there are multiple gospels.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Yes, it is serious. It is very serious.

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Who are you responding to? Please quote the person you addressing, for clarity.

Bramblewild said:

-Abraham was justified by faith; he believed God and that believe was counted to him as righteousness. The believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way as we are--by faith in Christ. They may not have known the name Jesus at those times, but they believed in God and his promises. No one, OT or NT or now, was ever saved by their own works, by their one law-keeping.

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People often mix cause and effect when it comes to Hebrews 11.

God command all of us now to cease from our works and trust in Jesus's finished work for our salvation. We show our faith in him by obeying exactly what he commanded us, and we are credited with salvation.

God commanded Noah to build an ark because a flood is coming. Noah showed his faith in God by likewise, obeying exactly what he commanded, and he was credited with salvation

For the rest of the OT after the Law of Moses, God commanded all the Jews to circumcise their children (Genesis 17), keep the Law, and sacrifice an animal every time they sinned. The Jews in the OT showed their faith in God by likewise, obeying exactly what he commanded, and they were credited with salvation.

To give a counter-example, imagine if a Jew during the era of Leviticus were to ever tell the High priest and God, "I am going to cease from my works and trust in Jesus's finished work at the cross for my salvation", I am not going to circumcise my male kids, keep the Law or sacrifice an animal".

If he were to do that, will he be saved? The answer is no, because those were not God's commandments for the OT Jews, as they are for us NOW. (I recall a similar scenario from the Choose your Own Adventure book "The Forbidden Castle")

None of us were saved by our own works. All of us obeyed what God commanded in faith, during each period of time, and we are saved by that faith.

Likewise, in the age to come, during the Tribulation, if a Jew wants to know "How can I be saved", they need to read Hebrews-Revelations and Revelations 14:12 to obey what God commanded them to do during those 7 years, which is to put faith in Jesus's imminent return, AND to keep his commandments, which now includes rejecting the mark of the beast.

Guojing said:

Yep, you are definitely a classical or Acts 2 dispensationalist, since you hold these views.

Curious though, since I don't know many classical dispy, if you believe that the grace dispensation or the Body of Christ began at Acts 2, how do you account for this readng that Jews who believed that Jesus is their Messiah are expected to

1. Keep the Law (Acts 10:28, Acts 21:20, Acts 22:12)
2. Share all their possessions (Acts 4:32, based on what Jesus taught them in Luke 12:33)
   
3. Face possible death by God for breaking the law (Acts 5:4-5)

3 may be the more significant one that I am very curious how classical dispy reconcile. Why was Ananias and Sapphira killed by God for lying if Peter indeed believed, just like Paul, in Galatians 3:13?

The most popular reply I have heard so far is that, Ananias and Sapphira are not "true believers". Is that your view too?

Click to expand...

Well now I know what others call me!

But as touching your verses:

1 Acts 10--You seem to forget the but Peter added which overrode the law.
2. Acts 21:20-- Paul went and kept a Jewish law with the four men.
3. ananias. And???? You seem to forget that teh book of Acts is a book of transitions. Do you think that the moment that a Jew got saved He became an instant Christian theologian?

4. as for sharing their possessions- a little research would tell you why. The new believers were ostracized from Jewish society. Most had lost jobs and renounced by families, and shunned by all Jews. So it was natural for them to come together and share their possessions. Many Christians in hostile countries do that.

5. As for Ananias and Saphira not one word about breaking teh law- but lying to the Holy Spirit!

Peter practiced CHURCH discipline from Matthew 18, He made the judgment and God honored that judgment.

I have no reason to believe that Ananias and Saphira were unbelievers. They may have been or they may have been saved and committed a sin unto death. Eternity will shew which is true.

sovereigngrace said:

Please answer my question: Where in scripture does it say that "Jesus postponed the kingdom to a future time"?

I will take it by your avoidance that you have nothing. You are adding 2+2 and getting 22. That is not the way it works. The kingdom came, and is alive and kicking. What is more Christ is reigning over that same kingdom now. The problem is: your teachers have taught you it was going to be a literal physical political Zionist earthly Davidic kingdom, when in fact it was a spiritual heavenly eternal kingdom.

Christ came to introduce a spiritual kingdom that was entered not by sight but only by faith. Jesus declared in John 3:3, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

This is expressly a spiritual kingdom as it relates to the spiritual realm. The blessing and rewards of the kingdom are plainly spiritual in nature and pertain exclusively to the repentant sinner. It relates to the unseen realm where the people are governed by their mediator King. A kingdom must have a king to be considered a kingdom. Christ rules this kingdom, not by force, but love. Those that subject to His authority are administered by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Premil denies Christ His current kingship over His spiritual domain with its constant future focus upon the kinship of Christ. Whilst there is a future aspect to Christ’s kingship, there is also the current reality.

Romans 14:17-18 says, “For the kingdom of God is … righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things (1) serveth Christ (2) is acceptable to God, and (3) approved of men.”

1 Corinthians 4:20 says, “the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power (or) dunámei.”

Q. Is the redeemed Church synonymous with the kingdom of God?

A. The redeemed Church is not strictly the kingdom of God per se; it is part of the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is a lot broader and includes the heavenly realm or territory, which evidently does not come under the more limited definition of the Church. It also includes the Godhead, which does not come under the more limited definition of the Church. It includes the righteous angelic world, which again, is clearly not the Church. The term the kingdom of God is therefore much wider than redeemed sinners – Old and New Testament, it includes the heavenly domain, it's laws, and the unseen world. The Church is restricted to redeemed human beings. Angels cannot be part of the Church, yet they are part of the kingdom.

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You may take it any way you wish. I showed and promised you the last word- you have it!

nolidad said:

You may take it any way you wish. I showed and promised you the last word- you have it!

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Matthew 21:43–44 shows the kingdom being taken from natural Israel and given to the New Testament Church. Nowhere does it say that the kingdom will then be taken from the New Testament Church and given back to national Israel. Pretribbers teach that but they are unable (like you) to bring anything to the table to prove it.

We see a significant move from the Old Testament period to the New Testament period:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

We are definitely not going back to that which was abolished, ineffective and unsatisfactory.

nolidad said:

5. As for Ananias and Saphira not one word about breaking teh law- but lying to the Holy Spirit!

Peter practiced CHURCH discipline from Matthew 18, He made the judgment and God honored that judgment.

I have no reason to believe that Ananias and Saphira were unbelievers. They may have been or they may have been saved and committed a sin unto death. Eternity will shew which is true.

Click to expand...

You made a confusing point here. Are you saying that you can be a believer, but not saved?

Under the same grace dispensation which we are under, lying to the Holy Spirit can also cause God to kill us? What kind of grace is this that you believed? Is that a sin that Jesus did not pay the price for at the cross?

Guojing said:

You made a confusing point here. Are you saying that you can be a believer, but not saved?

Under the same grace dispensation which we are under, lying to the Holy Spirit can also cause God to kill us? What kind of grace is this that you believed? Is that a sin that Jesus did not pay the price for at the cross?

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No. I am saying that you can be a believer and commit a sin and have the Lord take you home.

Ananias and Saphira were killed. Paul in corinthians said believers died for taking the Lords Supper in an unworthy manner. John said there is a sin unto death.

Of course Jesus paid for all sin. but Grace is not a license to sin. Someone caqn have sex with a prostitute with AIDS. They can confess and be forgiven, but they will still die if they contract AIDS.

A believer can get drunk, drive and smash a car to bits. They are still saved, but still died in the car crash!

Sin has wages to be paid.

Galatians 6:7 [Full Chapter]
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

This applies to believers as well.

Being saved means we are learning to forsake sin and grow in Godliness. Not feel free to sin because we have been forgiven. We are forgiven, but if we live in unrepentant sin- there is a physical price to pay.

sovereigngrace said:

Matthew 21:43–44 shows the kingdom being taken from natural Israel and given to the New Testament Church. Nowhere does it say that the kingdom will then be taken from the New Testament Church and given back to national Israel. Pretribbers teach that but they are unable (like you) to bring anything to the table to prove it.

We see a significant move from the Old Testament period to the New Testament period:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

We are definitely not going back to that which was abolished, ineffective and unsatisfactory.

Click to expand...

ACTS 1:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

“In the New Age, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you too will take up your positions on twelve thrones to rule the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30).

ISAIAH:
“I will avenge all my enemies...and I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning. Afterwards you will be called the City of Righteousness, the faithful city. Zion will be redeemed with judgment and those who return to God with righteousness” (1:26, 27).

“It will come to pass in the latter days [the days of Messiah] that the mountain of the Lord’s Temple will be established as the highest mountain and will be exalted above the hills and all nations will stream towards it. And many peoples will say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the House of the God of Jacob, and He will teach us His ways and we will walk in His paths'; for from Zion instruction will go forth, and the Message of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He will act as international arbiter for the nations and will rebuke many peoples. And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into scythes. A nation will no longer raise a sword against other nations, nor will they ever again learn to make war” (2:1-4).

“The wolf also will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like an ox. The infant will play over the hole of the asp and the weaned child will be able to put his hand on the adder’s den. They will not harm or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. In that day [the day of the Messiah] the root of Jesse will stand as an ensign for the peoples. The nations will seek him, and the [millennial] rest will be glorious” (11:6-10).

“The Lord will set Himself the task of recovering for the second time [the first was at the Exodus from Egypt] the surviving remnant of His people, those who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, Pathos, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath and the coastlands of the sea. He will raise an ensign for the nations and assemble the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth...And the Lord will completely destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt. He will wave His hand over the river and His scorching wind will divide it into seven channels so that people may cross dryshod. And the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be the third nation with Egypt and Assyria, as a blessing at the center of the earth. The Lord of Hosts will bless them and say, ‘Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance” (11:11, 12, 15; 19:24-25).

“The whole earth is at rest and at peace; they break forth into singing” (14:7). “In mercy the throne (of Messiah) will be established and he will sit upon it in the Tabernacle of David ruling and pursuing justice and hastening righteousness...In that day a man will look to his Creator and his eyes will respect the Holy One of Israel. And the Lord will be known to the Egyptians...Egypt will return to the Lord” (16:5, 7; 19:21).

“They will raise their voices and sing for the majesty of the Lord. They will shout aloud from the sea. The moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of Hosts will reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and He will manifest His glory before His elders” (24:14, 23).

“Israel will blossom and bud and fill the face of the world with fruit...The iniquity of Jacob will be purged...Israel will be gathered one by one...This is what will happen in that day: A great trumpet will be blown, and those who are being exterminated in the land of Assyria and the outcasts in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem” (27:6, 9, 12, 13).

“Behold a King will reign in righteousness and princes will rule in judgment...The spirit will be poured on us from on high and the wilderness will become a fruitful field...Then judgment will dwell in the wilderness and righteousness will remain in the fruitful field. And the effect of righteousness will be peace, quietness and assurance forever. And my people will dwell in a peaceful habitation, in sure dwelling places and quiet resting places...The Lord has filled Zion with judgment and righteousness. And wisdom and knowledge will provide stability in those times. Your eyes will see the King in his beauty...Your eyes will see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle which will not be taken down. Not one of its stakes will ever be taken down, nor will any of its cords be broken. But there the majestic Lord will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams. For the Lord is our ruler and law-giver. The Lord is our King; He will save us” (from ch. 32, 33).

“The glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together...The Message of our God will stand forever. You who herald the Good News to Zion, get up into a high mountain. You who bring the Good News to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength. Do not be afraid. Tell the cities of Judah, 'Behold your God! He will come with a strong hand to rule, bringing His reward with Him'” (40:5-10).

“O Jacob, my servant, I will pour water upon him that is thirsty and floods upon the dry ground. I will pour my spirit upon your seed and my blessing upon your offspring. And they will spring up like grass amid waters, like willows by flowing streams. Israel will be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation. You will never again be ashamed or confounded...Sing, O heavens; rejoice, O earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, for the Lord has comforted His people and will have mercy on His afflicted” (44:2-4; 45:17; 49:13).

“Can a woman forget her sucking child and not have compassion on the son of her womb? Indeed, they may forget. Yet I will not forget you...Thus says the Lord, I will raise my hand to the Gentile nations and set up my standard to the people, and they will bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters will be carried on their shoulders...and all humanity will know that I the Lord am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob” (49:15, 22, 26).

“The Lord God who gathers the outcasts of Israel says: I will gather others to him...And the redeemer will come to Zion and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob. The abundance of the sea will be converted to you; the wealth of the Gentiles will come to you...In my wrath I struck you, but in my favor I had mercy on you. For the nation and Kingdom which will not serve you will perish; those nations will indeed be ruined...The sons of those who afflicted you will come and bow before you. All those who despised you will prostrate themselves at your feet...Violence will be no more heard in your land; there will be no more devastation or destruction within your borders...Your people will all be righteous and they will inherit the land forever...You who make mention of the Lord, do not keep silent. Give Him no rest until He establishes Jerusalem and makes it a praise in the earth” (55:8; 59:20; 60:5, 10, 12, 14, 18, 21; 62:6-7).


God declares you mistaken.

nolidad said:

ACTS 1:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

“In the New Age, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you too will take up your positions on twelve thrones to rule the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30).

ISAIAH:
“I will avenge all my enemies...and I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning. Afterwards you will be called the City of Righteousness, the faithful city. Zion will be redeemed with judgment and those who return to God with righteousness” (1:26, 27).

“It will come to pass in the latter days [the days of Messiah] that the mountain of the Lord’s Temple will be established as the highest mountain and will be exalted above the hills and all nations will stream towards it. And many peoples will say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the House of the God of Jacob, and He will teach us His ways and we will walk in His paths'; for from Zion instruction will go forth, and the Message of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He will act as international arbiter for the nations and will rebuke many peoples. And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into scythes. A nation will no longer raise a sword against other nations, nor will they ever again learn to make war” (2:1-4).

“The wolf also will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like an ox. The infant will play over the hole of the asp and the weaned child will be able to put his hand on the adder’s den. They will not harm or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. In that day [the day of the Messiah] the root of Jesse will stand as an ensign for the peoples. The nations will seek him, and the [millennial] rest will be glorious” (11:6-10).

“The Lord will set Himself the task of recovering for the second time [the first was at the Exodus from Egypt] the surviving remnant of His people, those who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, Pathos, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath and the coastlands of the sea. He will raise an ensign for the nations and assemble the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth...And the Lord will completely destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt. He will wave His hand over the river and His scorching wind will divide it into seven channels so that people may cross dryshod. And the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be the third nation with Egypt and Assyria, as a blessing at the center of the earth. The Lord of Hosts will bless them and say, ‘Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance” (11:11, 12, 15; 19:24-25).

“The whole earth is at rest and at peace; they break forth into singing” (14:7). “In mercy the throne (of Messiah) will be established and he will sit upon it in the Tabernacle of David ruling and pursuing justice and hastening righteousness...In that day a man will look to his Creator and his eyes will respect the Holy One of Israel. And the Lord will be known to the Egyptians...Egypt will return to the Lord” (16:5, 7; 19:21).

“They will raise their voices and sing for the majesty of the Lord. They will shout aloud from the sea. The moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of Hosts will reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and He will manifest His glory before His elders” (24:14, 23).

“Israel will blossom and bud and fill the face of the world with fruit...The iniquity of Jacob will be purged...Israel will be gathered one by one...This is what will happen in that day: A great trumpet will be blown, and those who are being exterminated in the land of Assyria and the outcasts in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem” (27:6, 9, 12, 13).

“Behold a King will reign in righteousness and princes will rule in judgment...The spirit will be poured on us from on high and the wilderness will become a fruitful field...Then judgment will dwell in the wilderness and righteousness will remain in the fruitful field. And the effect of righteousness will be peace, quietness and assurance forever. And my people will dwell in a peaceful habitation, in sure dwelling places and quiet resting places...The Lord has filled Zion with judgment and righteousness. And wisdom and knowledge will provide stability in those times. Your eyes will see the King in his beauty...Your eyes will see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle which will not be taken down. Not one of its stakes will ever be taken down, nor will any of its cords be broken. But there the majestic Lord will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams. For the Lord is our ruler and law-giver. The Lord is our King; He will save us” (from ch. 32, 33).

“The glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together...The Message of our God will stand forever. You who herald the Good News to Zion, get up into a high mountain. You who bring the Good News to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength. Do not be afraid. Tell the cities of Judah, 'Behold your God! He will come with a strong hand to rule, bringing His reward with Him'” (40:5-10).

“O Jacob, my servant, I will pour water upon him that is thirsty and floods upon the dry ground. I will pour my spirit upon your seed and my blessing upon your offspring. And they will spring up like grass amid waters, like willows by flowing streams. Israel will be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation. You will never again be ashamed or confounded...Sing, O heavens; rejoice, O earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, for the Lord has comforted His people and will have mercy on His afflicted” (44:2-4; 45:17; 49:13).

“Can a woman forget her sucking child and not have compassion on the son of her womb? Indeed, they may forget. Yet I will not forget you...Thus says the Lord, I will raise my hand to the Gentile nations and set up my standard to the people, and they will bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters will be carried on their shoulders...and all humanity will know that I the Lord am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob” (49:15, 22, 26).

“The Lord God who gathers the outcasts of Israel says: I will gather others to him...And the redeemer will come to Zion and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob. The abundance of the sea will be converted to you; the wealth of the Gentiles will come to you...In my wrath I struck you, but in my favor I had mercy on you. For the nation and Kingdom which will not serve you will perish; those nations will indeed be ruined...The sons of those who afflicted you will come and bow before you. All those who despised you will prostrate themselves at your feet...Violence will be no more heard in your land; there will be no more devastation or destruction within your borders...Your people will all be righteous and they will inherit the land forever...You who make mention of the Lord, do not keep silent. Give Him no rest until He establishes Jerusalem and makes it a praise in the earth” (55:8; 59:20; 60:5, 10, 12, 14, 18, 21; 62:6-7).


God declares you mistaken.

Click to expand...

Some of these relates to the success of the Gospel in the intra-Advent period, others refer to the NHNE. There is no future millennium mention here in these texts. It is never going to happen!!!

It symbolically depicts the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

Premils are quick to connect Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:17-25, but in doing so this begs an important question: what or when is Isaiah 65 referring to? Thankfully we don’t need to speculate. The text speaks for itself. Isaiah 65:17 sates: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” Contrary to what Premil insists there is no mention or description of some future millennial period.

When one starts to compare all the Premil proof-texts we start to see some glaring contradictions. In one breath it promotes an age of perfect peace and tranquilly for the animal kingdom where they will not be tearing each other apart (Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25), yet in the text it promotes the mass slaughter of countless innocent lambs and goats in the physical temple in Jerusalem for the whole duration of this age (Ezekiel 40-47 and Zechariah 14:18-19). This is confused contradictory picture, and a bloody mess.

What Premils forget is that Isaiah 11 is expounded within the writings given to us in the New Testament. They provide a clear unambiguous interpretation of such Old Testament prophecies and demonstrate its true fulfillment. The New Testament clearly confirms the current fulfillment of Isaiah 11. Whilst I see references to the eternal state, it is not the bipolar Premil age you speak of but the "new heavens and new earth" (as per Isaiah 65). This passage actually rebuts the location of Isaiah 11 in this so-called millennial age. Here again by your linkage you actually remove another Premil proof text.