If You Believe in This One Doctrine. . .

JLB777 said:

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9 eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

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Sure. But do you even understand what this means?

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

This isn't referring to a lifestyle or behavior. It's speaking about faith in Christ alone for salvation.

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Where do you see anything about obedience here?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

where do you see anything about obedience here?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Nothing about works here either. And v.27 isn't any kind of conditional clause as is being falsely claimed by Arminians.

John 11:25,26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

What is very clear from Scripture is that salvation and eternal life are based on faith in Christ. Not works, not lifestyle, not behavior. Those do not save anyone.

I asked:
"Do you actually mean that we still yet don't know the whole plan of salvation???!!!"

Hammster said:

I leave open that possibility that I don’t know everything about salvation.

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Really? How does that make sense? Why would God NOT reveal exactly how He saves mankind?

I firmly believe that God has revealed ALL that is necessary for man to receive salvation. I truly feel sorry for those who don't believe that.

I used to believe like you, and made similar arguments. But God has opened up more truth to me.

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Nonsense. First you argue that the Bible may not have "all the truth", and now you claim that God has given you "more truth".

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

And why are you so special that God would open up "more truth" to you than others, who just as much as you don't want to be wrong, and even pray for guidance and understanding of His Word.

You ARE aware, I hope that 1 John 5:14,15 is clear about how to pray and how to receive what you pray for, right?

Or do you think that God's will is that some believers remain confused about His plan for mankind? How in the world could such a believer be effective in evangelism then?

So i don’t want to say that there’s more that He won’t reveal.

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So, when do you think that God will reveal "more"? During the Tribulation? Next week? Tomorrow?

And why would God be in the business of your theory of "continuing to reveal truth" through the ages? That would mean that all those who lived before this "more truth" idea would have been at a terrible disadvantage.

Recall that Paul was quite clear about the salvation message; he said nothing beyond what "Moses and the prophets said".

So, don't tell me that God continues to reveal "more truth". Couldn't be farther from the truth on that one.

However, you've given me insight into why you seem so reticent in answering questions. It appears that God just hasn't yet revealed "more truth" to you yet.

I'll close with what Peter said about this.

2 Pet 1:3 - His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

The red words clearly say that we (believers) have EVERYTHING we need for a godly life. That means we don't need to wait for "more truth".

The blue words indicate what has been given: "knowledge of Him".

Hm. You're waiting for "more truth" but Peter said we already have everything we need for life and godliness.

I'm going with Pete.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
First you argue that the Bible may not have "all the truth"

Hammster said:

I never said that. So no point in reading further.

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Here's what you actually said:
"So i don’t want to say that there’s more that He won’t reveal."

So, you sure did insinuate that.

But I'm not surprised at the unwillingness to engage further.

btw, I never said that you said "the Bible may not have 'all the truth'". I pointed out what you were arguing. It's very possible to argue something without mentioning specific words.

I said what I said based on what you said:
"I used to believe like you, and made similar arguments. But God has opened up more truth to me."

What else would anyone conclude from such a statement? It sure sounds as though you received some kind of special "more truth" than what you had before, as if the Bible wasn't enough.

Maybe you don't understand what an insinuation is, but you sure made one. So maybe you need to clarify yourself quite a bit more.

In any case, 2 Pet 1:3 says it all. God has (already) given us ALL we need for life and godliness. That includes the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Yet you spoke of some kind of "more truth".

Hammster said:

Here’s the thing to keep in mind. Truth is revealed. You and I have the truth about salvation, but even with that, God hasn’t revealed it all to us. There will be more revealed to us either in this lifetime, or the next. So any truth we do have is by God’s Grace.

We understand that the fallen nature of man makes it impossible for one to believe outside of regeneration. So with that, we understand that “saved” in scripture has many meanings depending on context. I thank God for that just like Paul does in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.


But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
— 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Paul knew where to put the emphasis...squarely upon God. He didn’t treat salvation as a reward for those who did something good. Romans 3 definitely shows that. So basically, Paul knew what side his bread was buttered on. But some folks only know that they have buttered bread, and that’s okay.

It’s hard to be patient with those who are still learning, those who still want to have something to do with their salvation. I get it. I fail often. But we need to have the same grace with them as Christ has with us. They ask, we answer, and move on. And let God use the results as He sees fit.

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You are correct Hammster.
I am more patient with a sincere person rather than a mocker.
I find I go between these two verses from prov26: I do not always get it correct however;
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I said:
"What else would anyone conclude from such a statement?"

Hammster said:

It is obvious that you concluded wrong.

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I didn't ask for a correction. I asked what else anyone would conclude from your statement.

Another dodge.

jimmyjimmy said:

You are aware that if you fail the Law in one point, you fail it completely, right? Therefore, placing your hope in your obedience to God's Law means you've failed before you've begun.

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The law of Moses has been abolished.

We are now under grace; the Law of Christ.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

jimmyjimmy said:

I was afraid you would say that.

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I didn’t have a good track record at first.

It wasn’t until my mind was renewed with the truth, and I began to take responsibility for my actions and believed what Jesus taught and repented in which I discovered that we can walk in dominion over the sinful desires of our flesh.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Galatians 6:7-8

• he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

JLB

crossnote said:

(FWIW I'm over 70) We agree that there are some people who will not hear the word of God, but only logistics or deprivation would put them in a position so they cannot hear.



I'm not sure which verse you are referring to but here is what I see in vss. 47, 42,43...

Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:47

It appears here that the reason they 'can not' or 'will not' hear is because they are not of God. The observable reason that they are not of God is explained here...

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. John 8:42

In the next verse Jesus does not say 'you cannot' hear my word, but you cannot 'bear to hear' my word which speaks to their will...

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. John 8:43

This is why I choose the stand that they 'will not hear' over 'they can not hear'.

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Good Day, CrossNote

KJV WhyG1302 do ye notG3756 understandG1097 myG1699 speech?G2981 even becauseG3754 ye cannotG1410 G3756 hearG191 myG1699 word.G3056


The cannot is the best formal translation of this greek construction.

YLT: wherefore do ye not know my speech? Because ye are not able to hear my word.

Geneva : Why doe ye not vnderstande my talke? because ye cannot heare my worde.

Bishops: Why do ye not knowe my speache? euen because ye cannot heare my word.

ASV 1901: Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.

ALT: "Why do you* not understand My speech? Because you* are not able to be hearing My word.

NIV: Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say



G1410

δύναμαι

dunamai

Thayer Definition:

1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

2) to be able to do something

3) to be capable, strong and powerful

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity


G3756

οὐ

ou

Thayer Definition:

1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

Part of Speech: particle

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary word, the absolute negative [compare G3361] adverb


They are absolutely unable in their own ability, resources, or state of mind or though circumstances.

They will not because they cannot, unless of course you think someone can will to do something which they have absolutely no ability to do.

There is no translation that has "will not hear" that I can find I do not think the Greek supports such translation.

So can some one do that which they are unable to do??


In Him,
Bill

Hammster said:

Here’s what actually was said.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I said what I said based on what you said:
"I used to believe like you, and made similar arguments. But God has opened up more truth to me."

What else would anyone conclude from such a statement?

So your question was rhetorical. And my answer stands.

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Well, you just misunderstand me. My question was REAL, and I had hoped for an answer, but once again, only got a dodge.

Yes, your dodge stands. And there was a whole lot more that needed a response from you.

Hammster said:

That is where you are mistaken. There is no need to respond to you. I’m all for healthy discussion. I just don’t see that happening with you.

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How can there be any kind of discussion when one side dodges?

And since you now insinuate that my discussions are "unhealthy", please explain exactly how they are that.

If I'm "unhealthy", I would like to become healthy. Are you willing to help out, or was that just an excuse to avoid further discussion?

I asked 5 questions in post #222. You didn't answer any of them.