If You Believe in This One Doctrine. . .

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I asked:
"Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

Now, I know that Calvinists never would describe their doctrine of election this way, but that is ultimately what is meant.

The Calvinist doctrine is that God chooses certain ones for salvation. By itself, that is true. And those He chooses to save are believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

They also agree that God's plan involves faith in Christ for salvation.

So, they claim that God regenerates those certain ones so that they are then able to believe, since in their unregenerate state they cannot believe."

Thanks for your answers.

However Titus 2:11-12 doesn't say anything about who God chooses to save. Instead, salvation is said to be brought "to all men", not some select group.

v.12 teaches that God's grace instructs us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righrteously and godly in the present age. Again, nothing about who God chooses to save.


This is not an answer, any more than Gen 1:1 through Rev 22:21 is an answer about where a particular subject is found in the Bible.


Ditto.

What the Bible does teach on the subject of salvation is that God chooses to save believers.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

God was pleased to save those who believe. That's who God chooses to save.

In fact, election isn't even about being chosen for salvation. Rather, it's about being chosen for service.

As you demonstrated, there are no verses about God electing anyone to salvation.
Well, I answered. I can’t make you believe the truth.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Well, I answered. I can’t make you believe the truth.
And I can't make you understand the truth. Which is that none of the verses you provided say anything about God choosing who will believe. Not a one.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
And I can't make you understand the truth. Which is that none of the verses you provided say anything about God choosing who will believe. Not a one.
Okay
 
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
FreeGrace2,

.
And those He chooses to save are believers. 1 Cor 1:21.
What the Bible does teach on the subject of salvation is that God chooses to save believers.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

God was pleased to save those who believe. That's who God chooses to save.

In fact, election isn't even about being chosen for salvation. Rather, it's about being chosen for service.

As you demonstrated, there are no verses about God electing anyone to salvation.
What a foolish post.....

God saves sinners,
Those sinners saved, believe.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
FreeGrace2,
What a foolish post.....
Can you tell me what's "foolish" about 1 Cor 1:21, that plainly says that God is pleased to save those who believe??

God saves sinners,
Those sinners saved, believe.
Oh, I see now. You foolishly think that God FIRST saves people, who THEN believe.

How foolish is that! Where in the world do you get your information from?

Certainly not the Bible.

But if you think so, what verse teaches that salvation precedes belief?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
FreeGrace2,

.

What a foolish post.....

God saves sinners,
Those sinners saved, believe.
Here’s the thing to keep in mind. Truth is revealed. You and I have the truth about salvation, but even with that, God hasn’t revealed it all to us. There will be more revealed to us either in this lifetime, or the next. So any truth we do have is by God’s Grace.

We understand that the fallen nature of man makes it impossible for one to believe outside of regeneration. So with that, we understand that “saved” in scripture has many meanings depending on context. I thank God for that just like Paul does in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.


But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
— 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Paul knew where to put the emphasis...squarely upon God. He didn’t treat salvation as a reward for those who did something good. Romans 3 definitely shows that. So basically, Paul knew what side his bread was buttered on. But some folks only know that they have buttered bread, and that’s okay.

It’s hard to be patient with those who are still learning, those who still want to have something to do with their salvation. I get it. I fail often. But we need to have the same grace with them as Christ has with us. They ask, we answer, and move on. And let God use the results as He sees fit.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: jimmyjimmy
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Can you tell me what's "foolish" about 1 Cor 1:21, that plainly says that God is pleased to save those who believe??


Oh, I see now. You foolishly think that God FIRST saves people, who THEN believe.

How foolish is that! Where in the world do you get your information from?

Certainly not the Bible.

But if you think so, what verse teaches that salvation precedes belief?


“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1)

Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion?
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?


Only those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



Those who teach the doctrines of man, rather than the doctrine of Christ, are deceiving people, and do not have Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What exactly do you mean when you say, "obey Jesus Christ as Lord"?

They way we become born again, (regenerated) is by obeying His Gospel message to repent.


This is done by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


We are now a citizen of His kingdom and are obligated to obey Him as Lord.

We are to obey:


His Gospel
His Commandments (Law)
His Doctrine



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8




And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




JLB
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
They way we become born again, (regenerated) is by obeying His Gospel message to repent.


This is done by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


We are now a citizen of His kingdom and are obligated to obey Him as Lord.

We are to obey:


His Gospel
His Commandments (Law)
His Doctrine



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8




And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




JLB
And , how is your track record of obeying God’s Law?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
And , how is your track record of obeying God’s Law?
One law is to be perfect as He is perfect. So hopefully it’s being followed perfectly.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"What a foolish post.....

God saves sinners,
Those sinners saved, believe."
Here’s the thing to keep in mind. Truth is revealed.
Truth is revealed in the Word of God, Scriptures.

You and I have the truth about salvation, but even with that, God hasn’t revealed it all to us.
Do you actually mean that we still yet don't know the whole plan of salvation???!!!

There will be more revealed to us either in this lifetime, or the next.
Do you actually mean that God continues to reveal truth individually, apart from His Word???!!!

So any truth we do have is by God’s Grace.
Scripture is by God's grace.

We understand that the fallen nature of man makes it impossible for one to believe outside of regeneration.
This is what I meant by foolish. That God saves someone in order for them to believe.

Beyond foolish, it's fallacious.

So with that, we understand that “saved” in scripture has many meanings depending on context.
How true. More than half of the time, "saved" has a temporal meaning, not an eternal one.

I thank God for that just like Paul does in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
— 2 Thessalonians 2:13[/QUOTE]
Do you understand what Paul meant here? By that, I mean, what is really being chosen here. It's not salvation. And the word for "chosen" here isn't part of the word group that is also translated "elected/election" either.

What was chosen is the METHOD or MEANS of salvation; that being, "through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth".

I would argue that the word "and" in the Greek can be rendered in a variety of ways, one of which is "even", which I think fits well here.

We know that "sanctification" means "to be set apart". I don't see a 2-step process here, but just 1. 'Sanctification by the Spirit' and 'belief in the truth' are basically referring to the same thing. Those who believe are set apart by the Spirit.

The idea that regeneration is required in order for a person to believe cannot be found in Scripture.

Paul knew where to put the emphasis...squarely upon God.
Of course. It is God's plan. He does all the saving. But don't forget that God's plan is an invitation (kletos) to salvation. Man must accept, just as any kind of gift (Christmas, birthday, etc) must be received in order to be possessed.

He didn’t treat salvation as a reward for those who did something good.
Absolutely not. :oldthumbsup:

Romans 3 definitely shows that. So basically, Paul knew what side his bread was buttered on. But some folks only know that they have buttered bread, and that’s okay.
Not following your point here.

It’s hard to be patient with those who are still learning, those who still want to have something to do with their salvation. I get it. I fail often. But we need to have the same grace with them as Christ has with us. They ask, we answer, and move on. And let God use the results as He sees fit.

Truth is truth. It's in the Bible. The problem is when the truth is shown, and yet the person continues to deny the truth. I've seen it from both Calvinists and Arminians.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"Where in the world do you get your information from?

Certainly not the Bible.

But if you think so, what verse teaches that salvation precedes belief?"
“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1)
I've exegete that verse from the Greek. Here it is:

"The ones currently believing that Jesus is the Christ have been born of God."

What it doesn't say or mean is that one has to be born of God before they currently believe.

For example, in a congregation that consists only of believers, one could say of them, "those currently believing that Jesus is the Christ have ALREADY been born of God."

No. In fact, it never does.

If you think so, what verse teaches that? After you show me such a verse, I will share 2 verses from the same context that proves that belief precedes salvation and being born again.

But you first.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Only those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord will receive eternal salvation.
Nope. No one's miserable works, efforts, deeds, etc will EVER result in salvation.

However, because of God's grace, rather than works, salvation is by faith in Christ.

Salvation:


Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9
Do you really think that your SINGLE verse, and one that you do not even understand, will "trump" the above 23 verses that don't even mention anything about obedience, works, deeds, etc in how to have salvation or eternal life??

Those who teach the doctrines of man, rather than the doctrine of Christ, are deceiving people, and do not have Christ.
I advise that those who do so quit.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And , how is your track record of obeying God’s Law?

You mean

Obeying Jesus Christ?


I love it when people ask this because it shows they are hiding their sinful habits and making excuses.


What does it matter what my track record is or your Pastor’s track record or anyone else?


Either you believe and obey Jesus Christ or you don’t.


By the way, I have a great track record.


I won’t ask you or anyone else what their Sonos or what their “track record” because it doesn’t matter.


Each one of us will be judged by our Lord, according to our deeds and our words.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;



JLB
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Nope. No one's miserable works, efforts, deeds, etc will EVER result in salvation.

However, because of God's grace, rather than works, salvation is by faith in Christ.

Salvation:


Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Do you really think that your SINGLE verse, and one that you do not even understand, will "trump" the above 23 verses that don't even mention anything about obedience, works, deeds, etc in how to have salvation or eternal life??


I advise that those who do so quit.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


  • eternal salvation to all who obey Him,



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Do you actually mean that we still yet don't know the whole plan of salvation???!!!
I leave open that possibility that I don’t know everything about salvation. I used to believe like you, and made similar arguments. But God has opened up more truth to me. So i don’t want to say that there’s more that He won’t reveal.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Each one of us will be judged by our Lord, according to our deeds and our words.
What is sad is how many confused believers there are who think that this Bema judgment is for whether one's works are good enough to enter heaven.

No. The judgment is for whether the believer has earned any eternal reward.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8
Those who are familiar enough with Scripture and have kept on reading what Paul wrote, know this:

Rom 3:9 - 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

So, per 3:9,20,23, Rom 2:6-8 cannot be about anyone actually receiving eternal life on the basis of "patient continuance in doing good". This wording indicates a perfect life, which ONLY Jesus accomplished. Which qualified Him to be our Savior.

But JLB seems to want to be his own savior by "patient continuance in doing good", which is, of course, impossible.

This is why Paul wrote all this in ch 3-
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, {including JLB}
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

The red words totally refute your opinions.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
No human being can fulfill this verse. As Paul clearly communicated in what follows this verse in Romans.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.