The nature of Jesus

renniks · Jan 11, 2020

Doubting Brutus said:
could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine.

A sinful god would not be worth following. How can a sinful god save you from your sin?

ml5363 · Jan 11, 2020

Doubting Brutus said:
Can you explain where Jesus affirms these things. I'm not saying he doesn't its just not clear to me that he does from reading the NT. Let me put it this way, when I read the words of Jesus I find it far more plausible that he talks about he and the father being one he is speaking in the same way I might speak about myself and my wife. 'We are one' being an indication of our love, our fidelity and our unique spiritual connection. Jesus may well have felt personally exalted by God, adopted as his son. This would be perfectly harmonisable with the text as far as I can see. The case for Jesus believing himself to be eternal and all powerful seems a bit more of a stretch. I'm not saying that I've got it right, merely that its not self evident without layering on centuries of church teaching.

Psalms 2:7 indicates Christ's sonship is an eternal Sonship. John 3:16-17...says he sent him into the world..thus he already existed.
Hebrews 1:2, John 1:1, Colossians 1:13-17

Sanoy · Jan 13, 2020

Doubting Brutus said:
Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

Jesus said that before Abraham was I am - John 8:58. He speaks of His eternal nature further in John 17:5 - "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." If He did not exist prior, but was a man who became adopted, then He is not be the second power found all throughout the Old Testament which He was claiming to be. There were two powers that appeared in the old testament, not just one. Sometimes they each were called Yahweh.

Genesis 19:24. - "Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven."

Zechariah 3:3 - "And Yahweh said to Satan, “Yahweh rebuke you, O Satan! The Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! ""

The coming Messiah is prophesied to be of old.

Micah 5:2 - "But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

Daniel 7:13-14 - "...behold, with the clouds of heaven (Chariots of heaven)
there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed"

Jesus was the perfect image of the Father. He often said that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. If He himself sinned, or did not do what the Father asked, He would not be the perfect image of Him, nor could He say that if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

John 14:9 - “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

The terminology of "I and the Father are one" can be ambiguous, but His statement about being in the Father, and the Father in Him is a unique condition. We might say that the Spirit dwells in us, or Christ is in us, but not that we are in the Father.

zippy2006 · Jan 15, 2020

Doubting Brutus said:
Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

The central claim of Christianity is that God became man. Christians believe that God really did come as a man. Jesus was fully God and fully man. God himself takes our condition upon himself and hallows it.

Adoptionism undermines this truth. It reduces Jesus to a man who was favored by God, like a prophet or a king.

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The nature of Jesus

renniks

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ml5363

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Sanoy

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zippy2006

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