LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
So you agree that you have to give essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ in your testimony?
Or really a Faith [or a knowing] of Christ is through your Church and your prophets, right?
Are you, as Mormons, not "coming unto Christ" in this manner?

No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?

And I have already stated what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ." I believe it was clear and understandable.

Jamesone5 said:
That is the so-called valid testimony I was brought up with and I was corrected when I forgot to add Joseph Smith into my testimony as a child. That particular "knowing" went onto my adulthood. That is one of those doctrines of "coming unto Christ" by the way.

Like I said previously in this thread. I don't do the whole "what Mormons believe" thing. I deal with our actual doctrine and what I believe. Feel free to post scripture to support your claims, but whatever you may, or may not, have done in regards to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not my concern and neither is it proof against our beliefs. It only means that is what you did.

And it still seems to be unrelated to the topic.

Jamesone5 said:
I have heard essentially the same things from missionaries that come by the house, btw.

Again, I'm not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe, or any other variant of the same. Let's deal with the actual doctrine.

Jamesone5 said:
You are in the postition of telling me I am right or wrong here. The asking bit is those sentences with a question mark behind them.

I'm pretty sure I'm not in the position of telling anyone on this forum whether they are right or wrong here. I believe that is the job of the moderators. Or did you mean to say that I'm arguing from a point where I am telling you that you are right or wrong? In that case, I'd like you to point out where I did that?

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
There are only two churches per Mormonism: the Church of the Lamb of God (headquarters Salt Lake City); all other churches are the Church of the Devil.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

Salt Lake City didn't exist at the time this verse was given. Which means your attribution is flawed. Not only that, but your statement is not what we believe. It is a misrepresentation of our beliefs.

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Exaltation is all about coming to Christ---it is the highest rung on your ladder to God so it is right on topic.

Exaltation and "Coming unto Christ" are not the same thing. This is a two-dimensional view of a three-dimensional concept. The dimensional analogy isn't perfect, but I find that it explains the misconceptions in a reasonable fashion.

As far as I know, the majority of mainstream Christianity operates on the two-dimensional level. There are Heaven and Hell. There are the wheat and the tares. There are the two churches - the Church of God and the church of satan.

The concept of "Coming unto Christ" exists on the two-dimensional level. A person comes unto Christ when they move from a one-dimensional view to a belief in the Savior. That is the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. (Okay, the dimensional analogy is not doctrine, that's something I came up with, but the concent of "Coming unto Christ" as I have explained it is doctrine.)

Just as a side-note, those who reject the Savior operate on a one-dimensional level. There is only the here and now. There is no God and man, the holy and the carnal. There is only man. Good and evil do not exist.

mmksparbud · Jan 11, 2020

Ran77 said:
Exaltation and "Coming unto Christ" are not the same thing. This is a two-dimensional view of a three-dimensional concept. The dimensional analogy isn't perfect, but I find that it explains the misconceptions in a reasonable fashion.

As far as I know, the majority of mainstream Christianity operates on the two-dimensional level. There are Heaven and Hell. There are the wheat and the tares. There are the two churches - the Church of God and the church of satan.

The concept of "Coming unto Christ" exists on the two-dimensional level. A person comes unto Christ when they move from a one-dimensional view to a belief in the Savior. That is the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. (Okay, the dimensional analogy is not doctrine, that's something I came up with, but the concent of "Coming unto Christ" as I have explained it is doctrine.)

Just as a side-note, those who reject the Savior operate on a one-dimensional level. There is only the here and now. There is no God and man, the holy and the carnal. There is only man. Good and evil do not exist.

You must first come to Christ before you can attain exaltation. It is stated that only those who attain exaltation can be in the presence of the Father---that is not what scripture states.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Father and the Son will both be in the New earth and all the saved will be in their presence. When you come to Christ---you come to the Father. You can not come to the Father separately from the Son.
Coming to Christ means coming to the Father.

Jamesone5 · Jan 11, 2020

Ran77 said:
No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?

And I have already stated what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ." I believe it was clear and understandable.

Like I said previously in this thread. I don't do the whole "what Mormons believe" thing. I deal with our actual doctrine and what I believe. Feel free to post scripture to support your claims, but whatever you may, or may not, have done in regards to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not my concern and neither is it proof against our beliefs. It only means that is what you did.

And it still seems to be unrelated to the topic.

Again, I'm not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe, or any other variant of the same. Let's deal with the actual doctrine.

I'm pretty sure I'm not in the position of telling anyone on this forum whether they are right or wrong here. I believe that is the job of the moderators. Or did you mean to say that I'm arguing from a point where I am telling you that you are right or wrong? In that case, I'd like you to point out where I did that?

No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?---Ran77

You say essentially say "no comment" to the your testimony and then tell me "that is something I made up on my own". Are you afraid to admit that you give 1/3 of your testimony to Christ? Don't beat around the bush---either what I submit is true or it is false.

Again, I'm not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe, or any other variant of the same. Let's deal with the actual doctrine.---Ran77

What other people have told me? First, you submit that "I made these things up on my own" and then you blame it on "other people". I WAS a Mormon for 40 years. You going to say that I wasn't? As to "what I have chosen to believe?-----facts are what I believe in, having been LDS myself.
And, your testimony is one of those doctrines---- as it is controlled by your Church.

Jamesone5 · Jan 11, 2020

Ran77 said:
No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?

And I have already stated what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ." I believe it was clear and understandable.

Like I said previously in this thread. I don't do the whole "what Mormons believe" thing. I deal with our actual doctrine and what I believe. Feel free to post scripture to support your claims, but whatever you may, or may not, have done in regards to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not my concern and neither is it proof against our beliefs. It only means that is what you did.

And it still seems to be unrelated to the topic.

Again, I'm not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe, or any other variant of the same. Let's deal with the actual doctrine.

I'm pretty sure I'm not in the position of telling anyone on this forum whether they are right or wrong here. I believe that is the job of the moderators. Or did you mean to say that I'm arguing from a point where I am telling you that you are right or wrong? In that case, I'd like you to point out where I did that?

Since you do not want to talk about your own testimony or anyone else's in your church---I will submit my own modeled after these verses:

1 John 5:10-12 (NKJV)
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has ]life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Certainly nothing about a Church or a prophet that started this Church, but Christ alone and what He has done for me in giving me this eternal life in Him---in THE Testimony. Mormons seem to have gotten way off track from the beginning in bearing their own testimonies.

Jamesone5 · Jan 11, 2020

Ran77 said:
Salt Lake City didn't exist at the time this verse was given. Which means your attribution is flawed. Not only that, but your statement is not what we believe. It is a misrepresentation of our beliefs.

Is it not the same Church that you are wanting to believe in?
So the Church of the Lamb is NOT in SL City-- now.

Even you fellow Mormon agreed to this:

-That statement is false. The headquarters of the Church of the Lamb of God is NOT in Salt Lake City. ---He is the way-

Glad we agree or a least some Mormons agree.

He is the way · Jan 11, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
You

You have no idea.

I know how Jesus wants us to show our LOVE:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

He is the way · Jan 11, 2020

mmksparbud said:
The first 4 of the 10 commandments show our duty to God, the last 6 show our duty to man. However, none of them can save you, they are duties, Jesus saves. Not a one of yo9u have ever kept the true 4th commandment so you can't claim to keep the commandments of God. You keep the commandments of men, for you do not believe that only the 10 commandments are needed---to attain exaltation, you must keep a bunch of or commandments not in the bible and also must be eternally married in the temple---God never required that. And according to LDS, only those that keep the LDS commandments get to be with the Father where the bible says that He will be with all the saved, not a select few.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Both will always be with us. There is no verse that says anyone must be married in an LDS temple in order to be with The Father and Son.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:9 - 12)

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

He is the way · Jan 11, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Is it not the same Church that you are wanting to believe in?
So the Church of the Lamb is NOT in SL City-- now.

Even you fellow Mormon agreed to this:

-That statement is false. The headquarters of the Church of the Lamb of God is NOT in Salt Lake City. ---He is the way-

Glad we agree or a least some Mormons agree.

The headquarters of the Church of the Lamb of God is in heaven because Jesus Christ is the head of His church. There are only two churches. People either follow Jesus Christ or they are of the devil:

(New Testament | Matthew 6:24)

24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Jamesone5 · Jan 11, 2020

He is the way said:
I know how Jesus wants us to show our LOVE:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:9
[ Love and Joy Perfected ] “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.

From this aspect

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

How do you truly love or is it just a word?

Jamesone5 · Jan 11, 2020

He is the way said:
The headquarters of the Church of the Lamb of God is in heaven because Jesus Christ is the head of His church. There are only two churches. People either follow Jesus Christ or they are of the devil:

(New Testament | Matthew 6:24)

24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

You dispute your own BoM

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

Jamesone5 · Jan 11, 2020

He is the way said:
I know how Jesus wants us to show our LOVE:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:9
[ Love and Joy Perfected ] “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.

mmksparbud · Jan 11, 2020

He is the way said:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:9 - 12)

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

What has that to do with being eternally sealed in a Mormon temple in order to be in the presence of the Father??? This is in this world, and even here, we do not have to be married. With salvation, we are all married to Christ.

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

mmksparbud said:
You must first come to Christ before you can attain exaltation. It is stated that only those who attain exaltation can be in the presence of the Father---that is not what scripture states.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

I would agree that these verses do not make/support the statements you gave above. That's probably because they are not discussing "Coming unto Christ" or exaltation. It would be more fruitful to post relevant scripture. Why don't we look at scriptures that actually mention "Coming unto Christ" or exaltation?

mmksparbud said:
The Father and the Son will both be in the New earth and all the saved will be in their presence. When you come to Christ---you come to the Father. You can not come to the Father separately from the Son.
Coming to Christ means coming to the Father.

I didn't see any mention in the verses you quoted of 1) when you come to Christ you come to the Father, 2) an inability to come to the Father separately from the Son, or 3) Coming to Christ means coming to the Father. These are concepts that have been added to the verses. There is also no mention that "all the saved will be in their presence."

Your post quotes verses and then attributes a bunch of stuff those verses don't mention.

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
No part of my response either agreed or disagreed with giving "essentially 1/3 billing to your Faith in Christ." That is something that you made up on your own. Why not respond to my actual comments?---Ran77

You say essentially say "no comment" to the your testimony and then tell me "that is something I made up on my own". Are you afraid to admit that you give 1/3 of your testimony to Christ? Don't beat around the bush---either what I submit is true or it is false.

I haven't essentially, or even remotely, given you a "no comment" response. That is also something you have made up. I dislike people putting words into my mouth and will point it out each and every time it is done. And I haven't beaten around the bush, what you submit is false. It starts with you posting that I have made a statement about something which I haven't addressed at all. If your argument starts false, then it, therefore, must end false.

Jamesone5 said:
Again, I'm not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe, or any other variant of the same. Let's deal with the actual doctrine.---Ran77

What other people have told me? First, you submit that "I made these things up on my own" and then you blame it on "other people". I WAS a Mormon for 40 years. You going to say that I wasn't? As to "what I have chosen to believe?-----facts are what I believe in, having been LDS myself.
And, your testimony is one of those doctrines---- as it is controlled by your Church.

Might I suggest that you take some time to read my comments again? I have not blamed other people for the things you make up. The responsibility for your actions rests squarely on your shoulders, as it does for all of us. (On our shoulders, not on your shoulders.) I didn't indicate that you weren't a member. Then again, I'm not sure you stated that you were before this post. Allow me to repeat what I actually posted, "I am not responsible for what other people have told you, what you have chosen to believe . . ."

If you are indeed interested in facts, then it should be no problem to stick to quoting verses as opposed to using what other people have said on the topic and claiming I've stated things that I clearly haven't.

Where shall we start? What scripture do you have that will refute, or support, my statement of what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe about "Coming unto Christ"?

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Since you do not want to talk about your own testimony or anyone else's in your church---I will submit my own modeled after these verses:

1 John 5:10-12 (NKJV)
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has ]life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Certainly nothing about a Church or a prophet that started this Church, but Christ alone and what He has done for me in giving me this eternal life in Him---in THE Testimony. Mormons seem to have gotten way off track from the beginning in bearing their own testimonies.

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

I'm pretty sure the rules of the forum prevent members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from submitting our testimonies. Since that's the case, it doesn't matter if I want to submit my testimony. It also doesn't address the topic I came to this thread to discuss.

mmksparbud · Jan 11, 2020

Ran77 said:
I would agree that these verses do not make/support the statements you gave above. That's probably because they are not discussing "Coming unto Christ" or exaltation. It would be more fruitful to post relevant scripture. Why don't we look at scriptures that actually mention "Coming unto Christ" or exaltation?

Those verses were not to support coming to Christ---but to point out the fact that scripture states that the Father and the Son will both be on the new earth and not---according to LDS doctrines, that the Father will only be somewhere where only those in exaltation can be with Him.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ran77 · Jan 11, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Is it not the same Church that you are wanting to believe in?
So the Church of the Lamb is NOT in SL City-- now.

That is incorrect. The church of the Lamb of God is in Salt Lake City. It's also in Rome. And Berlin. The church of the Lamb of God exists in many places. It exists everywhere where people have been taught about Jesus and have accepted Him as their savior.

Allow me to quote our doctrine concerning the two churches. "The entity identified by John as “Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations” is the church of the devil. This church encompasses all forces opposed to Jesus Christ, His gospel, and His Church, for there are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil."

The doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not identify any Christian denominations to be part of the forces of the devil who are opposed to Jesus Christ. Anyone who persists to claim otherwise is not addressing our doctrine. Twisting, or otherwise changing, our doctrines might make for an easier target to attack, but it does nothing in the way of refuting our actual beliefs.

I recognize that responding to your comments takes the discussion away from the topic, but in this case, I thought it was a good opportunity to trot out my dimensional analogy again.

The topic of there being only two churches does a great job of illustrating the two-dimensional level of my analogy. At this level, everything is divided into good and evil. Everything is either one thing or another. Good and evil. God and the devil. Wheat and tares. The Church of the Lamb of God and the church of satan. And most importantly to this topic, the two-dimensional level of my analogy separates those who have "Come unto Christ" from the unbelievers.

All anyone has to do to truly understand what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints accepts as doctrine on this matter is to apply the items I mentioned earlier in the thread to the points that are being made. If you fit into the category that I defined as "Coming unto Christ" then you are in the Church of the Lamb of God. If a city has people who have "Come unto Christ" then the Church of the Lamb of God exists in that city.

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