The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Christ’s works alone merits all of salvation. If one believes his works are required for salvation then one cannot believe Christ is sufficient to save. If one doesn’t believe Christ’s blood and righteousness aren’t sufficient to save apart from his or her works then one has not come to see their need for a Savior. If one has not come to see their need for a Savior then one has not come to see their own sinful wretched self guilty before God and in need of mercy. So I say again if one sees his works in anyway meritorious towards the grounds of salvation then this person has not come to repentance by casting himself on Christ for redemption and deliverance from sin

Try doing a study on the Judgment. You will notice that men are judged by their works, and names can be blotted out of the book of life.
 
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Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
(i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

“… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
… they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)


NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths

Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 –- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!

Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
… they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

And there are many more warning verses.

I agree. If you don't mind, I would like to see the 10 verses for each one on your list, brother. It would be helpful for me, and others here to see them.

Thank you;
And may God bless you.
 
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Neogaia777

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Try doing a study on the Judgment. You will notice that men are judged by their works, and names can be blotted out of the book of life.
Are we to ever be judging a man by his works though?

We can't see or know all God knows mind you, often focus too much on the external, or what is just on the surface, etc, don't know all the details of the individual, etc?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Christ’s works alone merits all of salvation. If one believes his works are required for salvation then one cannot believe Christ is sufficient to save. If one doesn’t believe Christ’s blood and righteousness aren’t sufficient to save apart from his or her works then one has not come to see their need for a Savior. If one has not come to see their need for a Savior then one has not come to see their own sinful wretched self guilty before God and in need of mercy. So I say again if one sees his works in anyway meritorious towards the grounds of salvation then this person has not come to repentance by casting himself on Christ for redemption and deliverance from sin
Right believing could play a part in judgement...?

But it has to be 100% Biblical though...?

God Bless!
 
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timothyu

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The way I've resolved this is to note that IF salvation can be lost, it is lost due to a complete loss of faith, not by sin. A complete, willfull loss of faith in Christ is INCREDIBLY difficult to do. It's not doubt or faith struggle, it is a wilful rejection.

Jesus said it differently.

Matthew 13:

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart.

21 yet he has no root in himself but is temporal, for when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 And he that was planted among the thorns is he that hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
 
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Healing with Jesus

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Hi, HWJ ...
There are 70+ NT verses ... do you have a category in mind?
Derek Prince is monumental.
Show love and understanding, while pointing out the truth in the NT.
Sincere repentance (stopping the sin) takes care of any outstanding sin.
It is unclear whether the Holy Spirit EVER leaves a habitual sinner.
It is unclear if there is an end-point when He will NEVER return.
IMO, it varies depending on the individual.
There is NO sin too grievous for the Lord Jesus to forgive (through repentance).
God bless you ... you're on the right track.
And hold tight to Derek Prince like a brother.

From the largely-ignored OP ...
There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths …
Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 -- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 -- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives


Yes, there are at least 10 NT verses for each of the above truths!
But, no one seems interested in any of these verses!
Not surprising, because people prefer their own opinions to what Scripture says!

Hi, I am interested in the verses about #5- repenting of our occasional sins and #7- enduring in the faith to the end of our lives. But I would like to see all of the verses if you have the time :)

Thanks for your encouragement. I hope I'm on the right track. I am reading through this thread and not sure which side of the debate I'm on. On one hand, there are some powerful calls for more love, more mercy, and less judgment from born-again Christians. On the other hand, there are some powerful arguments about God's insistence on our persistent obedience and constant humility to Him when we are unable to perform (which I assume is always...).
 
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Healing with Jesus

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The Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not invalidate the Trinity just because Catholics believe in it. The Trinity is still true according to the Bible. I do not agree with Catholics view on how we are saved by the sacraments. I believe the Bible is my one and only authority (unlike Catholics). For the Bible is the only holy book that has the evidences that back it up that shows that it is divine in origin (See my Blogger article here to learn more on evidences that back up the Bible). Anyways, I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification plays a part in the salvation process. This is not my opinion or thinking alone but it is what the Bible plainly teaches.

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and had risen again three days later on your behalf, and accepting Jesus as your Savior, and seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer. This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work (because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

Legalism, and other terms are charges that gets thrown a lot by many. It means different things to many people. According to God's Word: It is not legalism to obey God, and or to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (After we are saved by God's grace).


After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Hi, I asked the OP these questions. Would you share how you'd answer them?

What should we do in the cases where we have a choice to demonstrate love / grace / mercy to a wayward child / sinner, versus holding them accountable?

How do we ensure we are not guilty of removing a speck from our brother's eye while we have a log in ours? Won't we always have some specks in our eyes? What about sins that we may not be aware of?

What about when we're in the "prodigal" phase? If we become born-again and we backslide, are we forever lost and punished with eternal separation from God?

Where are we with the Lord in that "babes" phase when we just don't know the Lord that well? Do we lose the Holy Spirit and then gain Him back if/when we repent? How much must we repent? What degree of sin is too great?

And a new question, about this verse: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). GotQuestions says: 'In the end, we must recognize that even our righteous acts come as a result of God within us, not of ourselves. On our own, our “righteousness” is simply self-righteousness, and vain, hypocritical religion produces nothing more than “filthy rags.”' Do you agree with this interpretation and the gist of the article?

And one more question because I am really curious! How do you study the Scriptures? Is there a commentary and/or concordance you recommend?
 
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Healing with Jesus

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Hi everyone.

When I first read this OP, I had an idea of how I would respond, which is not instructive, but sharing my own experience. Here it goes.

I wish I had learned about the importance of obedience earlier in my Christian life. The woman who prayed with me at the moment I became born again gave me two books: a New King James version Bible and Derek Prince's Foundation Series, Volume One: 1. Foundation for Faith and 2. Repent and Believe. She instructed me to start reading the Bible with the Gospel of John. I did that, but I got about 10 pages into Derek Prince's book before I got distracted by my old habits of the flesh. I got seriously derailed. I was so disappointed and didn't know how to get my way back to obedience.

I listened to many different teachings, trying to discern the truth. I went to churches of many different denominations. I found that those who taught what seemed like truth could often be quite ugly, and scary even. I found that churches filled with love and acceptance often glazed over clear commandments given in God's word. I listened to messages of God's abundant grace and our radical freedom, with a teacher who said point-blank on the radio, "Look, if you're going to sin, then just sin!" I tried these all on for size and nothing fit well.

Tired of all the false teaching, or the teaching without actions to back it up, I disconnected from these places and started reading the book of Isaiah. I had been listening to R.C. Sproul describe the passage in Isaiah 6 when the prophet has his God-given vision and his lips are purified with a coal from the altar. R.C. started to talk about the holiness of God, and I realized this was an aspect of Him that I was not too familiar with.

Reading through the book of Isaiah was very humbling. I had never before been thirsty for God's judgment, as it didn't seem fair. All I can say is that the life experiences the Lord has given me plus reading this book made me want to obey God.

However, I wonder how I even can. I am utterly depraved, and wake up thinking sinfully. I wish I could say that this is a story of victory, but how can it be? I have many struggles, every single day. I pray constantly for the Lord to help me. What else can I do? Does God want me to feel perpetually guilty for my sins? Will guilt and fear drive me to action? How do we yield ourselves to the Spirit of God so that HE is the one doing good works?
 
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Hi, I asked the OP these questions. Would you share how you'd answer them?

What should we do in the cases where we have a choice to demonstrate love / grace / mercy to a wayward child / sinner, versus holding them accountable?

How do we ensure we are not guilty of removing a speck from our brother's eye while we have a log in ours? Won't we always have some specks in our eyes? What about sins that we may not be aware of?

What about when we're in the "prodigal" phase? If we become born-again and we backslide, are we forever lost and punished with eternal separation from God?

Where are we with the Lord in that "babes" phase when we just don't know the Lord that well? Do we lose the Holy Spirit and then gain Him back if/when we repent? How much must we repent? What degree of sin is too great?

And a new question, about this verse: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). GotQuestions says: 'In the end, we must recognize that even our righteous acts come as a result of God within us, not of ourselves. On our own, our “righteousness” is simply self-righteousness, and vain, hypocritical religion produces nothing more than “filthy rags.”' Do you agree with this interpretation and the gist of the article?

And one more question because I am really curious! How do you study the Scriptures? Is there a commentary and/or concordance you recommend?

Answering your questions would be a very lengthy ordeal or exercise with Scripture and I am not so sure my reply will convince you to see otherwise. I am capable of answering your questions, but seeing you quoted my post of verses that list a ton of verses that show how we need to live holy and be fruitful after being saved by God's grace, it is only fair that you at least address 3-5 verses in my post first. In other words, please provide a word for word commentary (in your own words) on the verses I presented, and then I will consider in answering your questions. Thank you.
 
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Hi, I am interested in the verses about #5- repenting of our occasional sins
and #7- enduring in the faith to the end of our lives.
But I would like to see all of the verses if you have the time :)
I think it would be instructive for a few here who are open,
if I were to start a thread for each of the 7 topics.
So, please stay tuned and be patient ...
 
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Hi, I asked the OP these questions. Would you share how you'd answer them?

What should we do in the cases where we have a choice to demonstrate love / grace / mercy to a wayward child / sinner, versus holding them accountable?

How do we ensure we are not guilty of removing a speck from our brother's eye while we have a log in ours? Won't we always have some specks in our eyes? What about sins that we may not be aware of?

What about when we're in the "prodigal" phase? If we become born-again and we backslide, are we forever lost and punished with eternal separation from God?

Where are we with the Lord in that "babes" phase when we just don't know the Lord that well? Do we lose the Holy Spirit and then gain Him back if/when we repent? How much must we repent? What degree of sin is too great?

And a new question, about this verse: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). GotQuestions says: 'In the end, we must recognize that even our righteous acts come as a result of God within us, not of ourselves. On our own, our “righteousness” is simply self-righteousness, and vain, hypocritical religion produces nothing more than “filthy rags.”' Do you agree with this interpretation and the gist of the article?

And one more question because I am really curious! How do you study the Scriptures? Is there a commentary and/or concordance you recommend?

BTW (By the way), you are misquoting Isaiah 64:6 out of its context.

It is not referring to how we cannot be righteous.
It is referring to folks trying to be righteous on their own terms when they are sinning and not confessing their sins to God.

5 "You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities
And have consumed us because of our iniquities
."
(Isaiah 64:5-7).​


As for your quote by Gotquestions.org:

Gotquestions is a Calvinist website (i.e. They believe in 4 point Calvinism). I just discovered that fact from this article here by them. I believe Calvinism is unbiblical. Are you a Calvinist?
 
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Healing with Jesus

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Answering your questions would be a very lengthy ordeal or exercise with Scripture and I am not so sure my reply will convince you to see otherwise. I am capable of answering your questions, but seeing you quoted my post of verses that list a ton of verses that show how we need to live holy and be fruitful after being saved by God's grace, it is only fair that you at least address 3-5 verses in my post first. In other words, please provide a word for word commentary (in your own words) on the verses I presented, and then I will consider in answering your questions. Thank you.

BTW (By the way), you are misquoting Isaiah 64:6 out of its context.

It is not referring to how we cannot be righteous.
It is referring to folks trying to be righteous on their own terms when they are sinning and not confessing their sins to God.

5 "You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities
And have consumed us because of our iniquities
."
(Isaiah 64:5-7).​


As for your quote by Gotquestions.org:

Gotquestions is a Calvinist website (i.e. They believe in 4 point Calvinism). I just discovered that fact from this article here by them. I believe Calvinism is unbiblical. Are you a Calvinist?

Hi, I understand that you don't want to answer my questions without my thoughtful engagement with the verses. However, I don't feel comfortable offering my commentary on the verses. I believe them and I affirm the importance of our obedience to the Lord. Any commentary I would offer at the moment could lead someone into wrong thinking, and I don't want to do that. If my lack of commentary makes you feel that you'd rather not answer my questions, then that's how it is and we can leave it at that.

I don't know if you saw my post # 449 about my struggle in the grace vs. obedience mindset, but perhaps it would help you see that I am seeking the truth and not looking to stir up controversy for the sake of debate. I am asking these questions in earnest.

Thank you for explaining the context of Isaiah 64:6. That is helpful. However, I am still confused about how I can be truly obedient while I struggle with sin every day.

As far as Gotquestions.org goes, I did not know that they are Calvinists. I don't think I'm a Calvinist. I have heard that R.C. Sproul is a Calvinist, so it looks like I have heard a lot of Calvinist teaching. GotQuestions seems to pit Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I wonder what school of thought Derek Prince's teachings would fall under. To which view (if any) would you say you subscribe?
 
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BCsenior

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I wonder what school of thought Derek Prince's teachings would fall under.
He is (was?) a heavy-duty pentecostal-charismatic (extremely heavily-educated also).
Don't remember his views on Calvinism, etc.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Hi, I understand that you don't want to answer my questions without my thoughtful engagement with the verses. However, I don't feel comfortable offering my commentary on the verses. I believe them and I affirm the importance of our obedience to the Lord. Any commentary I would offer at the moment could lead someone into wrong thinking, and I don't want to do that. If my lack of commentary makes you feel that you'd rather not answer my questions, then that's how it is and we can leave it at that.

I don't know if you saw my post # 449 about my struggle in the grace vs. obedience mindset, but perhaps it would help you see that I am seeking the truth and not looking to stir up controversy for the sake of debate. I am asking these questions in earnest.

Thank you for explaining the context of Isaiah 64:6. That is helpful. However, I am still confused about how I can be truly obedient while I struggle with sin every day.

As far as Gotquestions.org goes, I did not know that they are Calvinists. I don't think I'm a Calvinist. I have heard that R.C. Sproul is a Calvinist, so it looks like I have heard a lot of Calvinist teaching. GotQuestions seems to pit Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I wonder what school of thought Derek Prince's teachings would fall under. To which view (if any) would you say you subscribe?

I lean more towards Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

  1. Conditional Election.
  2. Unlimited Atonement.
  3. Total Depravity.
  4. Prevenient Grace.
  5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia


This is my own list that is more specific to what I believe:

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).*
#3. Partial Depravity.*
#4. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation.* (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#5. Conditional Salvation.*​

Rearranging the points spells CCUPP.

What is my view of Soteriology?

I believe we are saved by Justification and Sanctification.

Justification is being initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and in seeking forgiveness over one's sins with Him and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection for salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Romans 10:13) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Sanctification is the second step or phase in the salvation process. This is GOD doing the good work through the believer under their free will cooperation with the Lord. They will live holy, put away grievous sins, and do the good works of the Lord. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief in the Truth.

Grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) can separate a believer from the Lord (and they will abide in spiritual death) if they do not confess their sins to Jesus, and they do not forsake such sins (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13). Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. God's grace does not teach us to justify sin or that His grace is a safety net to sin like the majority of churches teach these days.
 
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Neogaia777

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Hi everyone.

When I first read this OP, I had an idea of how I would respond, which is not instructive, but sharing my own experience. Here it goes.

I wish I had learned about the importance of obedience earlier in my Christian life. The woman who prayed with me at the moment I became born again gave me two books: a New King James version Bible and Derek Prince's Foundation Series, Volume One: 1. Foundation for Faith and 2. Repent and Believe. She instructed me to start reading the Bible with the Gospel of John. I did that, but I got about 10 pages into Derek Prince's book before I got distracted by my old habits of the flesh. I got seriously derailed. I was so disappointed and didn't know how to get my way back to obedience.

I listened to many different teachings, trying to discern the truth. I went to churches of many different denominations. I found that those who taught what seemed like truth could often be quite ugly, and scary even. I found that churches filled with love and acceptance often glazed over clear commandments given in God's word. I listened to messages of God's abundant grace and our radical freedom, with a teacher who said point-blank on the radio, "Look, if you're going to sin, then just sin!" I tried these all on for size and nothing fit well.

Tired of all the false teaching, or the teaching without actions to back it up, I disconnected from these places and started reading the book of Isaiah. I had been listening to R.C. Sproul describe the passage in Isaiah 6 when the prophet has his God-given vision and his lips are purified with a coal from the altar. R.C. started to talk about the holiness of God, and I realized this was an aspect of Him that I was not too familiar with.

Reading through the book of Isaiah was very humbling. I had never before been thirsty for God's judgment, as it didn't seem fair. All I can say is that the life experiences the Lord has given me plus reading this book made me want to obey God.

However, I wonder how I even can. I am utterly depraved, and wake up thinking sinfully. I wish I could say that this is a story of victory, but how can it be? I have many struggles, every single day. I pray constantly for the Lord to help me. What else can I do? Does God want me to feel perpetually guilty for my sins? Will guilt and fear drive me to action? How do we yield ourselves to the Spirit of God so that HE is the one doing good works?
I can only begin by telling you @Healing with Jesus, that, "My people perish due to a lack of accurate knowledge and truth and a lack of knowing me" (He might say)...

It is much, much easier, much easier, etc, to "walk with Him" (in the Spirit, etc) and truly walk in His ways, and give Him the kind and type of obedience He expects from you personally, etc, when you truly know Him/Them (The Trinity)...

And there are very, very, very, very very very "many", "false teachers" (pastors, preachers, evangelists, apostles, supposed disciples, etc, etc, etc), "out there", etc, you need to know the Bible yourself apart from them and their influence first before you ever engage with them ever first, if you ever truly want to know Him/Them and walk with Him/Them and have a very personal relationship and/or connection with Them, and walk in Their ways, etc...

Anyway, I can only just begin by telling you that first, K...?

PM me anytime, K.

God Bless!
 
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@Healing with Jesus

In regards to my point #2 that says, "Provisional Majority Atonement":

Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 excludes those individuals from the Lamb’s book of life since the foundation of the world; So Jesus never provided a provisional atonement for the sins of these particular individuals because God knew that they would worship the beast in the future. Everyone else had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (and they were saved as babies and as a really young child), and their names were blotted out when they grew up and gained the knowledge of good and evil and sinned; This is why majority of people need to accept Jesus as their Savior. They fell away like the prodigal son and died spiritually by a life of sin, and they need to be made alive again.

To learn more about the "Provisional Atonement," check out my 4 aspects of salvation thread here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.
 
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Emsmom1

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Hi, I asked the OP these questions. Would you share how you'd answer them?

What should we do in the cases where we have a choice to demonstrate love / grace / mercy to a wayward child / sinner, versus holding them accountable?

How do we ensure we are not guilty of removing a speck from our brother's eye while we have a log in ours? Won't we always have some specks in our eyes? What about sins that we may not be aware of?

What about when we're in the "prodigal" phase? If we become born-again and we backslide, are we forever lost and punished with eternal separation from God?

Where are we with the Lord in that "babes" phase when we just don't know the Lord that well? Do we lose the Holy Spirit and then gain Him back if/when we repent? How much must we repent? What degree of sin is too great?

And a new question, about this verse: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). GotQuestions says: 'In the end, we must recognize that even our righteous acts come as a result of God within us, not of ourselves. On our own, our “righteousness” is simply self-righteousness, and vain, hypocritical religion produces nothing more than “filthy rags.”' Do you agree with this interpretation and the gist of the article?

And one more question because I am really curious! How do you study the Scriptures? Is there a commentary and/or concordance you recommend?
I just want to say-great questions and I, too, am interested in a commentary recommendation.
 
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