The severity of suffering in hell

SkyWriting

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I'm not sure. If I was tormenting myself I would feel I deserved it. I don't think I deserve all of the problems I have which are health and mental problems. Lately I've been having severe cognitive problems.

One of my nephews died before birth...so you have a million more options available.
And that's just today!

In the success spiral you start with gratitude and it builds you.
In the failure spiral you start with blame and...well... you know.


2-Spirals.jpg
 
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BugandAbby

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i dont think so. its almost cowardly. we need to be motivated by a love which seeks no reward nor fears any punishment.
I think this can occur if we can build a mature relationship with JC.
Ideally yes I agree but as fallen creatures we all have some level of selfishness even if it is motivated by only love we love because we were first loved right? Also, how would you build a mature relationship, sorry but I'm quite literal - read scripture, talk to God and try to follow his mandates?
Is that the formula?
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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Ideally yes I agree but as fallen creatures we all have some level of selfishness even if it is motivated by only love we love because we were first loved right? Also, how would you build a mature relationship, sorry but I'm quite literal - read scripture, talk to God and try to follow his mandates?
Is that the formula?
we all need training wheels is maybe what you are trying to say. yes i agree.
like how the legalistic old covenant morphed into the new covenant.
we should aim high imo.
 
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leefromcanada

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i dont think so. its almost cowardly. we need to be motivated by a love which seeks no reward nor fears any punishment.
I think this can occur if we can build a mature relationship with JC.

Do you think it's wrong to be motivated by love that seeks reward from God? (I might not know what "being motivated by love that seeks reward from God" means)

Maybe see Hebrews 11:6?

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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Do you think it's wrong to be motivated by love that seeks reward from God?
Its one step in the direction towards God. But as our faith matures, we do the right thing because we love God and don't want to offend him. Heaven can be glimpsed now. We can look forward to heaven but heaven actually starts now.
 
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LiquidCat

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Hi my greatest fear is to be severely tortured for a long time - such as for a day or multiple days. Would hell for a typical unsaved person be unbearable? Or perhaps it is just the absence of God and not be particularly bad?

It's like lying on a pan and being cooked forever and ever , but yea Christ died for all so they can avoid it if they accept him but many wont like salvation is free gift u really don't need to do anything to avoid it .
 
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coffee4u

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Now, what happened after they ate of the tree?

First, they did not surely die!

They died spiritually immediately and started to die (age) also immediately which is why Adam died some 930 years later.

Second, their eyes were opened, as the serpent said.
Their eyes were opened, but not in the way they thought. They felt shame and embarrassment and gained their selfish nature.

Third, they became like God, knowing good and evil, like the serpent said!
They didn't become like God at all -unless you believe yourself to be God?

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Mankind gained an inner knowledge of good and evil. Normal people associate certain words with good and evil. If I say murder you should say evil, if I say love you should say good. Unfortunately, that is where it ends and not all people know the difference between good and evil, some find evil fun and think love is weakness. However, because we do have this basic knowledge inside of us and we are responsible for how we use it.

According to the Bible, there was a risk that a man would live forever AFTER eating from the tree, from which God said they would DIE if they eat it's fruit. Think about it. In other words, why is there a fear that people might live forever after they eat of the tree of knowledge? Because the tree of LIFE gives life - thats why!
Before Adam sinned they didn't have to eat from the tree of life to live forever. Notice there is no verse where God instructs Adam to eat the fruit daily before he sinned, if it was important for Adam to do so it would have been mentioned, it's not because we know sin brought in death. Meaning before sin there was no death.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--


So why was the tree there? Well for one it symbolized God as being the source of life and blessings, plus being alongside the other tree is showed man's choice. Satan's side or God's side. Once they were sent out of the garden it also represented how man had no way back to God by his own strength.

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
God is life.

People died, according to the Bible, not because they ate of the tree of knowledge, but because God sent them out of Eden, preventing them from eating of the tree of life!

People die because Adam sinned -his sin caused death.
This is why perfect blood was needed to remove sin and restore us spiritually. Jesus is called the last Adam because when he was tempted he didn't sin and when he died he died without sinning. Dying without sin meant he could take our sin.
1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.


God didn't use death and blood as a redemption tool simply because he thought it was a good idea, it had to be death and blood because historically sin is tied to death and blood. Even the garments God made for Adam and Eve were a picture of Christ covering our sin with his blood. The Bible is full of these prophesy and fulfilment pictures.
 
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BigV

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They died spiritually immediately and started to die (age) also immediately which is why Adam died some 930 years later.

Ah... you are just making up additional words to make God's promise appear true. Which is understandable, but, at the end of the day, 'spiritual' death is a New Testament concept. Long after the book of Genesis was written.

Before Adam sinned they didn't have to eat from the tree of life to live forever. Notice there is no verse where God instructs Adam to eat the fruit daily before he sinned, if it was important for Adam to do so it would have been mentioned, it's not because we know sin brought in death. Meaning before sin there was no death.

I think you may have missed my point. According to the Bible, God needs to scramble to prevent people from living forever AFTER they ate of the tree of knowledge! Seems to me, the serpent was right! Eating of the tree of knowledge had nothing to do with death.

NIV Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Apparently, living forever was a real possibility for people AFTER they ate of the tree of knowledge, which, according to God, will cause them to die in the day they eat of it!
 
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BigV

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My sisters' pastor says God's glory is "so great and so awesome" when he considers eternal torment...

I think, at the end of the day, if you remove Hell, there is no point to the Abrahamic religions. Hell is what keeps people in the faith. It's God's most effective tool, if you will.
 
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JohnClay

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I think, at the end of the day, if you remove Hell, there is no point to the Abrahamic religions.....
Some Jews didn't believe in the resurrection - like the Sadducees (not sure if they believe in Heaven)
 
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BugandAbby

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Do you think it's wrong to be motivated by love that seeks reward from God? (I might not know what "being motivated by love that seeks reward from God" means)

Maybe see Hebrews 11:6?

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I guess I'm having trouble reconciling a true love for God or anyone that seeks something I suppose that strikes me as conditional.
 
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BugandAbby

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I guess I'm having trouble reconciling a true love for God or anyone that seeks something I suppose that strikes me as conditional.
Sorry that sounds confusing I'm not the best communicator. True love, at least to me, is unconditional - given with no expectation of something in return.
So, if our motive to love God is self-serving in any way is it really love?
 
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coffee4u

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Ah... you are just making up additional words to make God's promise appear true. Which is understandable, but, at the end of the day, 'spiritual' death is a New Testament concept. Long after the book of Genesis was written.



I think you may have missed my point. According to the Bible, God needs to scramble to prevent people from living forever AFTER they ate of the tree of knowledge! Seems to me, the serpent was right! Eating of the tree of knowledge had nothing to do with death.

NIV Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Apparently, living forever was a real possibility for people AFTER they ate of the tree of knowledge, which, according to God, will cause them to die in the day they eat of it!

I didn't notice that you were an atheist when I posted but ignoring the Bible verse on no death before sin won't make it go away. If you use the Bible expect to get it quoted back.

No I am not missing the point, the point is foreshadowing and typology. The tree of life represented God and being bared from it represented their spiritual death and the fact that man could not reach God by himself. Since you don't believe in the Bible anyway I will not waste my breath anymore trying to explain Biblical typology.
 
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JohnClay

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Note that there is also a Tree of Life in Revelation 22... in Genesis it seems to allow people to live forever - maybe that is also the idea in Revelation.
It says "On each side of the river stood the tree of life" - so maybe there are two?
 
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coffee4u

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Sounds like 2 and thanks for the reminder of that verse. Revelation is not a book I know very well even though I have done studies on it.
You will always find a verse in the New Testament that compliments the original verse in the Old Testament when the OT verse is a foreshadowing. The OT verse will show it imperfectly while the NT verse shows it as perfect or compleated.

22 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve [manner of] fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him; 4 and they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] on their foreheads.


5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


OT Curse in Genesis 3 - NT now no curse
OT The light made in Genesis 1:3 that wasn't the sun. - NT God is the light.
I find typology quite intresting.
 
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BigV

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I didn't notice that you were an atheist when I posted but ignoring the Bible verse on no death before sin won't make it go away. If you use the Bible expect to get it quoted back.

No I am not missing the point, the point is foreshadowing and typology.

Sorry about breaking the rules, and I hope there can be an exception since we are talking about the Bible.

My point was, that God himself says there is a real chance man (people) can live forever even after they ate of the tree of knowledge. To avoid people living forever, God removes them from Eden. Everything serpent said would happen did happen. The end.
 
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BigV

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BigV:

Please read the forum rules. Since you are an atheist, you are not to be posting in these threads.


As I understand it, I'm accused of breaking the following:
  • Only Christian members (see our faith groups list) may answer questions about the Christian faith or defend the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints from non-Christian members.
Is my understand correct? If so, then I'd like to clarify that in my responses, I did not answer questions about Christian faith or try to defend Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints from non-Christian members.
 
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