You did not chose Me, I chose you.

Ilikecats · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28.

Have you even read those verses? They’re about something we will get in heaven not on earth.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

Ilikecats said:
Have you even read those verses? They’re about something we will get in heaven not on earth.

I see this as Glorification.

Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

Ilikecats said:
Have you even read those verses? They’re about something we will get in heaven not on earth.

For we are not only saved from this body of death, but we are saved into being away from this sinful place and in a better place. For we receive crowns of glory in addition to a glorified body (i.e. Glorification).

CharismaticLady · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
What is the purpose of a sign?
To give you certain directions.
Like a stop sign tells you to stop, or a speed limit sign tells you to restrict your speed to a designated speed limit; Signs give us instructions.

Jesus is the sign of the New Covenant.
We show Jesus living inside us. We show Jesus who is the sign to this world for their salvation. We do not do this by mere words alone, but by cooperating with the Lord living in us by crucifying the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24), and by walking in newness of life (Romans 6:4). The testimony of our changed life by Jesus is the sign to those who are in darkness to receive their instructions to repent and change their life, too.

Jesus is the sign.
We see Jesus as the sign in the serpent on the pole in the wilderness.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3:14).

Jesus is the sign.
We see Jesus as the sign of Jonah.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." (Matthew 12:38-41).

The sign of the prophet Jonah was Jesus. For as Jonah was three days, and three nights in the heart of the great fish, Jesus (the sign) was three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Jesus is the sign.
We see Jesus as the sign in the Manna Bread.

The crowd that followed Jesus said,

"...What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? .... "Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat." (John 6:30-31).

Then Jesus said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world."
(John 6:32-33).

Then said they unto him,

"Lord, evermore give us this bread." (John 6:34).

And Jesus said unto them,

"I am the bread of life" (John 6:35).

Jesus is the sign of the New Covenant. This is why our good works done before men glorifies God the Father in Heaven (Matthew 5:16). For why did the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus? It was because it was Jesus who was working through them.

"that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him." (Ephesians 1:10).

Jesus is the sign of the New Covenant.

Author: Bible Highlighter.

It certainly has to do with Jesus that's for sure. But the sign of the covenant is the Cup of the New Covenant, 1 Corinthians 11:25. (The cup represents Christ's blood.)
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Matthew 26:
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

CharismaticLady · Jan 10, 2020

Ilikecats said:
I don’t think there is a process called glorification.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30

We as believers are predestined for glory because of God.

Interesting that sanctification is not in that verse. I think it is the same thing and at the same time as justification.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

Yes, the new covenant is love based. Not based on keeping any laws perfectly. As Peter, who was a great sinner himself, tells us how to live by the Spirit, he says:

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
We all know lots of very loving people who stumble a lot. We should love them back, not try to point out the specks in thier eyes.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
How do you understand Ezekiel 18:24l? It clearly is saying that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and he commits iniquity, all his previous righteousness will not be remembered.

I don't apply Torah keeping to the NT Christian...
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul says, "We have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16).
How is that possible if we think we can sin and still be saved?
Jesus never would have thought that way because if He did, He could not have been our spotless Lamb.

Paul also said " What I do not want to do, that I do."
He understood the struggle with our flesh.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Both our past willful sins of lawlessness and our past trespasses are completely cleansed forever. But then we are given the power to not willfully commit sins of lawlessness again in the present or future. Jesus is not our Advocate for murder and adultery. You know that don't you? He is only our Advocate for trespasses.

Jesus told us that thinking it is the same as doing it. No one ever reached that standard of Holiness. If Christ didn't cover those sins, we would all be bound for hell.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
but our Heavenly high priest should not be someone we just mindlessly pay lip service as we plan to do evil again with the thinking we will be saved.

Never said we should do that.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
believe the Sanctification Process is different for each believer. We are not cookie cutter drones and every believer is different. Some may put away grievous sin right away, and others it may take years.

That's not what you have been teaching. You have been saying that each grievious sin disqualifies you for the kingdom. If it takes years to conquer then that person is no longer a Christian for those years.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The statement here is vague. Doing good and loving perfectly can mean many things to different people.

Not vague at all. Perfect means perfect as Christ is perfect. You have been claiming we have to put away all sin to be saved. You flip flop back and forth, saying sanctification is a process, which contradicts what you said earlier. You need to decide where you stand.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

renniks said:
We agree on something. It's possible to fall from the faith. Just keep in mind that one way to fall is a salvation of works, which describes just about every other religion.

Jesus taught that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus told us to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him. For the person who shall seek to save his life will lose it, and the one who will lose their life in following Jesus will save it (Matthew 16:24-25). This is not "Law Alone Salvation-ism" because Jesus also taught that we can be saved by His mercy and grace, too (Like with the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, and the Parable of the Prodigal Son), and He also taught that we can be saved by having a belief in Him for salvation (John 3:16) (John 5:24).

"Law Alone Salvation-ism" (without God's grace through faith in Christ) is condemned in Ephesians 2:8-10. The point of Ephesians 2:8-10 is that it is teaching the 1st process of salvation called "Justification" (i.e. we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and in seeking forgiveness with Jesus). Ephesians 2:8-9 is not condemning the Sanctification Process of God doing the good work through the believer after they are saved by God's grace because a believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works since the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10). Ephesians 2:8 says we receive this grace like a gift, which lets us know that this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. How many times have you been quickened or made alive by Christ? Surely a believer is quickened only one time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." This initial process of salvation (Justification) is without works. The works mentioned in Ephesians 2:9 is different than the works mentioned in Ephesians 2:10. For which works is it referring to in Ephesians 2:9? Ephesians 2:9 is referring to the kind of works a man would boast in himself by doing. This means that this is a "Man Directed Work" and not a "God Directed Work" done through them. Ephesians 2:10 is the kind of works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. Is Ephesians 2:10 is clearly a "God Directed Work" done through the believer after they are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. So we would give our praise and thanks to God for the work mentioned in Ephesians 2:10 because it is God doing the work (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5), and it is not the kind of Man Directed Work whereby we would boast in ourselves (Ephesians 2:9) that replaces the Justification Process of salvation (i.e. God's grace through faith in Christ) (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Titus 3:5 is also mentioned by those who think that works do not play a part in our salvation and or by those who have a "secure in their sin view of salvation."

Titus 3:3-4 says,

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared," (Titus 3:3-4).

Verse 3 is describing our old life of sin (and not our present life of sin).
Verse 4 is saying that there is a change. That after the loving kindness of our Savior Jesus Christ appeared. Meaning, when Jesus appeared to the apostles, things changed. When Jesus came into their lives, they were saved by His mercy and grace. The same is true for our lives. When Jesus first comes into our life - verse 4 (after we lived a life of sin - verse 3), we can be forgiven by His mercy and grace (Titus 3:5) and not by works of righteousness. This is the Justification Process of salvation in initially getting right with the Lord. This is talking about "Initial Salvation" because verse 3 is describing our old life of sin, and verse 4 then says when Jesus comes into a believer's life whereby they can then receive grace and mercy (verse 5). Titus 3:5 is not saying we can live in sin or ignore good works while we have a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. Verse 8 (Titus 3:8) says we have to be careful to maintain good works, and Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Most believers profess that we cannot live righteously and godly in this present world but they think they cannot overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) this side of Heaven.

What about Galatians 3, Romans 4:2-5, and Titus 3:5? The context of Galatians 3, and Romans 4:2-5, are in reference to the 613 Laws of Moses (i.e. the Old Law) as a whole package deal or contract. The Old Law is no more (Hebrews 8:13). For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Circumcision is a command that is a part of the 613 Laws of Moses (that is no longer a binding contract or covenant anymore). We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Paul was saying we first need to be justified by God's grace through faith by seeking forgiveness with Jesus and believing on His death, burial and resurrection without the deeds of the Law. This is how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. We are not saved by any kind of work when we first come to God. If a believer stumbles into a sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, or to be forgiven of it. They seek forgiveness with Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

Galatians 3:3 is often quoted at this point in the fact that what we have begun in the Spirit, you are now made perfect by the flesh? This is not a reference to living holy on a perfect way but it is in reference to how one cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39 KJV). In Galatians 2:3, Paul says that Titus who was with him was not compelled to be circumcised. This is the context. Circumcision to be saved (Which was the same problem mentioned at the Jerusalem council - See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. Think. What is what we have begun in the Spirit in Galatians 3:3? It is putting to death the misdeeds of the body (i.e. putting to death sin) (Romans 8:13). It is the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, and peace (Galatians 5:22-23).

Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The newness of spirit is what the Spirit has begun in our lives so as to live a holy life, and we are not to serve in the oldness of the letter (Which is the Torah or the Law of Moses). For the oldness of the letter at that time would have only been the Torah and not the New Testament Scriptures that were currently being written.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2020

Oldmantook said:
As I wrote your one-track mind continues to influence your misinterpretation of the text. I have always maintained that aionios, etc. cannot mean eternal. Thus these two verses you supply do not mean "forever." Why are you so uncritical of your own paradigm?

What are you talking about paradigm that I'm supposed to be critical of? You have repeated that aionios cannot mean eternal BUT you have not provided any credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence as I have.

I never wrote that the saints reign forever. Why should they when Jesus does not reign forever. Only the Father reigns forever. Jesus ends up subjugating himself to the Father which you continually ignore. Since Jesus subjugates himself, it's quite obvious that the saints don't reign forever either.

Where is scripture which states that only the father reigns forever?

The 7th trumpet in Rev 11:15 heralds the 2nd Coming of Christ. Question: Why do the "kingdoms of this world" then become "that of our Lord and of His Christ"? Answer: Because Jesus' 2nd Coming ushers in His Millennial kingdom which is His rule and reign upon the kingdoms of this world. A millennium is certainly not an infinite time of "for ever and ever" but instead a finite period of time of "ages to the ages" - in this case 1,000 years. Thus "for ever and ever" is obviously an incorrect translation of aionas ton aionon as Jesus rules the kingdoms of this world making them the kingdoms of our Lord - for 1,000 years

Repeating "’for ever and ever’ is obviously an incorrect translation of aionas ton aionon"etc. over and over and over does not make it true.
Can you show me anything like credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence? Do you even know what that means? To assist you see my next post following where I quote Bauer, Arndt, Danker, Gingrich Greek lexicon.
Anticipating your response if you think BADG is biased etc. prove it!

You have continually cited Rev 22:5 as a proof-text for your belief but I've already responded to that.
Again where does it say they reign forever?? The redeemed of God rein aionas ton aionon or to the ages of the ages. Unlike Rev 11:15 which does reference the age of 1,000 years, this verse does not specify a specific duration of time. So yes the saints rein within the gates of the New Jerusalem for a long, but finite period of time but not forever. My guess is most likely until Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father per 1 Cor 15:24.

Your guess? Sorry I don’t do guesses! Let me get this straight “εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων”/”eis tous aiōnas tōn aoinōn” means eternal when it refers to God but it only means age(s) when it refers to anything else.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever

.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

renniks said:
That's not what you have been teaching. You have been saying that each grievious sin disqualifies you for the kingdom. If it takes years to conquer then that person is no longer a Christian for those years.

I do not believe that a Christian can struggle day in and day out with a particular sin and think they can just confess it and not worry about that sin condemning them. I am talking about how a grievous sin may appear from time to time in their life that they are battling with. It may crop up over long periods of time. This sin is not a way of life for them or a daily struggle. If such is the case, they need prayer from the other faithful brethren as they confess of this serious sin in order to have victory or life in overcoming this sin (See 1 John 5:16-17).

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2020

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for color=red]all future time[/color]; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Older edition online at : http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

renniks said:
Not vague at all. Perfect means perfect as Christ is perfect. You have been claiming we have to put away all sin to be saved. You flip flop back and forth, saying sanctification is a process, which contradicts what you said earlier. You need to decide where you stand.

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

renniks said:
We agree on something. It's possible to fall from the faith. Just keep in mind that one way to fall is a salvation of works, which describes just about every other religion.

Guilt by association is not always true. As I said before, the Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not invalidate the Trinity just because they happen to believe it. Many religions believe there is one God, but that does not invalidate the truth that the Bible teaches that there is only one GOD. Again, these verses below would not exist in Scripture if salvation did not also include holy living and or good works. For...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2020

A person who is honest with themselves when reading the list of verses above in post #878 will see that we do have to live holy and do works for God as a part of the salvation process. This is not a denial of God's grace but it works in harmony with His grace that initially saves us. Titus 2:11-12 says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world.

To live godly and righteously in this present world is to live holy and to do good works. But people have a funny idea about grace that runs contrary to Titus 2:11-12. They think that after they are saved by God's grace (Justification), they think His grace is a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Some think they can do all manner of horrible sins while having a belief alone on Jesus for salvation and others think we will not do the really bad stuff like murder, rape, and child abuse and yet they think they can lie, swear, look at women in lust and live for themselves and be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Both versions of this kind of grace is different than the grace mentioned in Titus 2:11-12. Their grace teaches that they do not have to deny ungodliness, and that they can live ungodly and unrighteously in this present world.

renniks · Jan 10, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I do not believe that a Christian can struggle day in and day out with a particular sin and think they can just confess it and not worry about that sin condemning them. I am talking about how a grievous sin may appear from time to time in their life that they are battling with. It may crop up over long periods of time. This sin is not a way of life for them or a daily struggle. If such is the case, they need prayer from the other faithful brethren as they confess of this serious sin in order to have victory or life in overcoming this sin (See 1 John 5:16-17).

Now, that is vague! IMO, we all are struggle with daily sins. There are just some that are more obvious than others. Just because one person doesn't appear to sin outwardly, doesn't mean he is not committing grievous sins. How often do we have to repent to remain saved? See, there are no blanket answers to these questions, because we are covered by Christ's blood. He WILL prompt us to repent in order for our relationship with him to remain open. But, if we don't repent for each and every sin, he doesn't dump us.

You did not chose Me, I chose you.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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