You did not chose Me, I chose you.

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
<OM>Nonsense! You have a one-track mind. As I explained already the kingdom does not end. Jesus' rule however does end when he subjugates himself to the Father and hands over the kingdom.Thus Jesus' reign ends AND despite that, kingdom has no end because the Father reins over it. ...
Wrong! Why look at the surrounding texts when the text itself provides the context? "They" and "them" refer to the saints - not the Godhead. The verse states God gives THEM light. As per your habit you have to twist the text in order to fit your rigid belief system.<OM>

So according to you God reigns for ever and the saints reign forever but the reign of Jesus ends? although Jesus is on the throne with God? c.f. Luke 1:33 Revelation 11:3

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
As I wrote your one-track mind continues to influence your misinterpretation of the text. I have always maintained that aionios, etc. cannot mean eternal. Thus these two verses you supply do not mean "forever." Why are you so uncritical of your own paradigm?

I never wrote that the saints reign forever. Why should they when Jesus does not reign forever. Only the Father reigns forever. Jesus ends up subjugating himself to the Father which you continually ignore. Since Jesus subjugates himself, it's quite obvious that the saints don't reign forever either.

The 7th trumpet in Rev 11:15 heralds the 2nd Coming of Christ. Question: Why do the "kingdoms of this world" then become "that of our Lord and of His Christ"? Answer: Because Jesus' 2nd Coming ushers in His Millennial kingdom which is His rule and reign upon the kingdoms of this world. A millennium is certainly not an infinite time of "for ever and ever" but instead a finite period of time of "ages to the ages" - in this case 1,000 years. Thus "for ever and ever" is obviously an incorrect translation of aionas ton aionon as Jesus rules the kingdoms of this world making them the kingdoms of our Lord - for 1,000 years.

You have continually cited Rev 22:5 as a proof-text for your belief but I've already responded to that.
Again where does it say they reign forever?? The redeemed of God rein aionas ton aionon or to the ages of the ages. Unlike Rev 11:15 which does reference the age of 1,000 years, this verse does not specify a specific duration of time. So yes the saints rein within the gates of the New Jerusalem for a long, but finite period of time but not forever. My guess is most likely until Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father per 1 Cor 15:24.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In other words, Paul was referring to them in trying to be saved by the OLD Law (that has been fulfilled by Christ on the cross). Paul is not referring to New Covenant Laws. For even believing in Jesus is a Law or commandment (See 1 John 3:23). But 1 John 3:23 would be New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. Therein lies the difference, my friend.
So, in that case it's okay if I break the commandments? The question again is not whether we should do good, or love one another. The question was whether we could do it perfectly.
John 8:7
So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

Are any of us righteous enough to cast the first stone at our brothers and sisters in Christ, for thier imperfections?
Are any of us righteous enough to pluck the spot out of their eye?
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Okay... if I know about it I might apologize, but find no need to confess it to God. But what about the other 50 times a week when I did it and never found out? We are not under levitical law. If you're going to quote from Leviticus, I assume you're keeping all of the old covenant laws?

I know what you are saying, but all you really need to remember, is when you constantly love others and forgive others, those unknown trespasses are forgiven. You asked what a trespass was that you didn't know about. I did my best to explain it, but probably missed the mark on giving an accurate example. Just keep walking in the Spirit to be able to love and forgive, and all those trespasses are cleansed

The Lord's Prayer says, Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive other's their trespasses against us.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

1 John 1:7 says "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. I agree. I stay away from those churches.
I try to now, because they don't understand:

For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more” (Heb. 8:12). So they're still trying to live by the law.
Under the old covenant forgiveness was never final and forever. One had to return year after year after year on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) so that the high priest could continually slaughter an animal and place the blood of the sacrifice on the altar in the Holy of Holies.

But in the new covenant, established by the shedding of Christ’s blood, our sins are altogether and forever forgiven: past, present, future.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Again, you have it backwards. Look at what the scripture actually says.
“Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). That comes straight after the statement, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Genesis 6:8).

God's people are righteous when they are in a right relation with him, when they enjoy his salvation; God's righteousness is, for Paul, God's saving activity in and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his Son. It is activity that is directly in line with the saving activity of God in the Old Testament.
So, was it Noah's righteousness that saved him or his works?

1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. We are told not to be deceived on this matter.

Nowhere will you find in Scripture that a man is righteous while they are committing grievous sin or serious sin that He condemns within His Word (like murder, lust, hate, theft, idolatry, etc.). Sure, believers can stumble into sin on rare occasion and they can confess and forsake such sins, but God is not in agreement with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved. God is pure, and holy. God is good. He cannot agree with darkness because there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). In popular Christianity: Christians can say that Jesus paid for even future sin at the cross, but it would still be wrong for GOD to allow a person to think this way because it would be giving them a safety net to commit horrible sins that He Himself condemns with punishment in the Lake of Fire. It would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God is not a respecter of persons.

As for Noah:
Noah was saved by faith in GOD and a true faith in God always produces works of faith that authenticates that faith. According to James, faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). This is because there is a synergistic bond between faith and works of faith. James explains this when he condemns Belief Alone-ism and he tells us what a true faith when he says, "Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.” (James 2:18) (NLT).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Some have just traded one law for another. In some Churches I have attended, women wearing pants is a sin. Men wearing short sleeves was a sin. Listening to certain music was a sin. I could go on and on. Legalism is not just about the old Jewish law.

Yep. I don't agree with that, either. Sin that condemns has to be clearly spelled out in Scripture. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law during His earthly ministry.

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I am neither of these. But when I balance all of scripture together, I find that faith produces works, but works don't produce salvation. And depending on works for salvation is dangerous because it can lead to false religion.

Three verses make it clear that we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification.

#1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone - James 2:24.
#2. God calls us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief in the truth -2 Thessalonians 2:13 (Note: Look at the verses before and after this verse; The context is referring to works and faith).
#3. A person who hears (obeys) Christ's words and believes in the One who sent Christ shall never perish and they have crossed from death unto life - John 5:24. This is confirmed by other verses like Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that says that if anyone does not hear that prophet Jesus, they shall be destroyed. Matthew 7:26-27 says that if anyone does not do what He (Jesus) says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Obeying Jesus naturally will lead us to doing good works.

Important Note:

A person is first saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and seeking forgiveness with Him (Justification), and then they enter the Sanctification Process in putting away sin and living a holy life and doing good and righteous deeds by the working of God within them. The above verses stress Sanctification first (not because Sanctification happens first), but I believe they are stressed first because so many today reject the second phase of the salvation process. Many today want to treat God's grace as a license to sin.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Again, you have it backwards. Look at what the scripture actually says.
“Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). That comes straight after the statement, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Genesis 6:8).

God's people are righteous when they are in a right relation with him, when they enjoy his salvation; God's righteousness is, for Paul, God's saving activity in and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his Son. It is activity that is directly in line with the saving activity of God in the Old Testament.
So, was it Noah's righteousness that saved him or his works?

How do you understand Ezekiel 18:24l? It clearly is saying that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and he commits iniquity, all his previous righteousness will not be remembered.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God’s ultimate goal in our lives is to make us like Jesus, and here, John speaks of the fulfillment of that purpose.


In 1 John 3:9 two distinct identities are described: the begotten of God and (b) God’s seed. In sorting out what is being said in this verse about each of these two things, it should be noted that the third person singular ending on a verb can be translated, “he,” “she,” or “it.”

This being the case, verse 9 could be interpreted: “Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin . . . because he is born of God.” The omitted words would refer to God’s seed and would explain why the one born of God cannot do [ poienv ] sin: “for God’s seed [which is the Holy Spirit or new nature] remains in him and it [God’s seed] is not able to sin.”
The truth is that believers are able to practice sin and become enslaved to it.
1 John 1:7–10 states, ” 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Elsewhere in Scripture it is clear that believers can choose to practice sin. In Romans 6:12–13 Paul admonishes his readers, ” 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.” Paul’s admonition shows that it is possible for a believer to let sin reign in the body, but it also shows that it is possible for a believer to refuse to let sin reign. And in verses 14–16 Paul makes it clear that, while sin cannot cause God’s law to send believers to hell, choosing to sin can cause believers to become enslaved to it. He says, ” 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

Paul’s admonition, however, does NOT imply that there is no observable difference in the behavior of a believer and that of an unbeliever. 1 John 3:10 explains, ” 10In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.” But this verse also explains that the primary observable difference between the behavior of a believer and that of an unbeliever involves love (or concern for the wellbeing) of other believers. 1 John 3:11–19 supports this understanding.
Because true believers possess God’s seed and it is not able to sin, their behavior will be observably different from that of unbelievers. This difference will be especially evident in their love and concern for other believers.

Paul says, "We have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16).
How is that possible if we think we can sin and still be saved?
Jesus never would have thought that way because if He did, He could not have been our spotless Lamb.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I take it then you cannot give God all the glory, pity

Is God's glory taken away when we choose to make a decision for Christ as our Savior?
Why would you think any following decisions to continue to serve the Lord would then take away from His glory?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
But in the new covenant, established by the shedding of Christ’s blood, our sins are altogether and forever forgiven: past, present, future.

Both our past willful sins of lawlessness and our past trespasses are completely cleansed forever. But then we are given the power to not willfully commit sins of lawlessness again in the present or future. Jesus is not our Advocate for murder and adultery. You know that don't you? He is only our Advocate for trespasses.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Yep. I don't agree with that, either. Sin that condemns has to be clearly spelled out in Scripture. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law during His earthly ministry.

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

I agree. I just wanted to tell you in case you weren't aware that every covenant has a sign of the covenant as long as the covenant is in effect. The Sabbath was the sign of the covenant of the Ten Commandments. Exodus 34:28; Exodus 31:13

Leviticus 23 shows all the feasts and days of holy convocation. And we know they all had something to do with Jesus, and He is their fulfillment. The Sabbath is mentioned first.

When a new covenant comes into effect, the sign of that covenant ceases. Like the sign of the Abrahamic covenant was circumcision. We no longer are commanded to circumcise our little boys. It is now of the heart, the same as the Law of Moses.

I'm curious, now that we have a New Covenant, do you know what the sign of our covenant is?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You got the cart before the horse there, pardner. The do reprobate things because they are not saved. If they were, they would do good works, because of the Spirit in them.
The works don't save, the Spirit does.

I believe we are first saved by God's grace through faith and not by Sanctification first. I believe God does the good work through the believer. I believe all three persons of the Trinity do good works through the believer (i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). We cannot boast or take credit alone for any good God does through us, but we do have to cooperate with the good work God desires to do through us. The good works save because they are part of who GOD is. Love without action or works of love is not true love. Jesus showed us how to love by His loving example, and He continues to show it by working His love in our lives via by works of love. The works do save because we cannot separate the work of God from GOD anymore than we can separate GOD from being a spirit.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Three verses make it clear that we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification.

#1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone - James 2:24.
#2. God calls us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief in the truth -2 Thessalonians 2:13 (Note: Look at the verses before and after this verse; The context is referring to works and faith).
#3. A person who hears (obeys) Christ's words and believes in the One who sent Christ shall never perish and they have crossed from death unto life - John 5:24. This is confirmed by other verses like Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that says that if anyone does not hear that prophet Jesus, they shall be destroyed. Matthew 7:26-27 says that if anyone does not do what He (Jesus) says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Obeying Jesus naturally will lead us to doing good works.

Important Note:

A person is first saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and seeking forgiveness with Him (Justification), and then they enter the Sanctification Process in putting away sin and living a holy life and doing good and righteous deeds by the working of God within them. The above verses stress Sanctification first (not because Sanctification happens first), but I believe they are stressed first because so many today reject the second phase of the salvation process. Many today want to treat God's grace as a license to sin.

I was raised believing that sanctification was a lifelong process of overcoming sin. But I never found any verses to support that. The more I studied, the more I saw that sanctification was usually "past tense" so is at the beginning as soon as we are cleansed of all sin. We are then set apart for good works. Therefore justification:sanctification are back to back.

"But I know I've grown since I was born again, so there must be some kind of 'process', but if it isn't sanctification, then what is it called?" That was my prayer, and the one word answer came immediately by His still small voice to my mind - "Glorification" Wow, that was right in line with having the mind of Christ! So then I set out to see what I could find and it is beautifully set in 2 Peter 1.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I agree. I just wanted to tell you in case you weren't aware that every covenant has a sign of the covenant as long as the covenant is in effect. The Sabbath was the sign of the covenant of the Ten Commandments. Exodus 34:28; Exodus 31:13

Leviticus 23 shows all the feasts and days of holy convocation. And we know they all had something to do with Jesus, and He is their fulfillment. The Sabbath is mentioned first.

When a new covenant comes into effect, the sign of that covenant ceases. Like the sign of the Abrahamic covenant was circumcision. We no longer are commanded to circumcise our little boys. It is now of the heart, the same as the Law of Moses.

I'm curious, now that we have a New Covenant, do you know what the sign of our covenant is?

What is the purpose of a sign?
To give you certain directions.
Like a stop sign tells you to stop, or a speed limit sign tells you to restrict your speed to a designated speed limit; Signs give us instructions.

Jesus is the sign of the New Covenant.
We show Jesus living inside us. We show Jesus who is the sign to this world for their salvation. We do not do this by mere words alone, but by cooperating with the Lord living in us by crucifying the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24), and by walking in newness of life (Romans 6:4). The testimony of our changed life by Jesus is the sign to those who are in darkness to receive their instructions to repent and change their life, too.

Jesus is the sign.
We see Jesus as the sign in the serpent on the pole in the wilderness.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3:14).

Jesus is the sign.
We see Jesus as the sign of Jonah.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." (Matthew 12:38-41).

The sign of the prophet Jonah was Jesus. For as Jonah was three days, and three nights in the heart of the great fish, Jesus (the sign) was three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Jesus is the sign.
We see Jesus as the sign in the Manna Bread.

The crowd that followed Jesus said,

"...What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? .... "Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat."
(John 6:30-31).​

Then Jesus said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world."

(John 6:32-33).​

Then said they unto him,

"Lord, evermore give us this bread." (John 6:34).​

And Jesus said unto them,

"I am the bread of life" (John 6:35).
Jesus is the sign of the New Covenant. This is why our good works done before men glorifies God the Father in Heaven (Matthew 5:16). For why did the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus? It was because it was Jesus who was working through them.

"that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him." (Ephesians 1:10).

Jesus is the sign of the New Covenant.


Author: Bible Highlighter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I was raised believing that sanctification was a lifelong process of overcoming sin. But I never found any verses to support that. The more I studied, the more I saw that sanctification was usually "past tense" so is at the beginning as soon as we are cleansed of all sin. We are then set apart for good works. Therefore justification:sanctification are back to back.

"But I know I've grown since I was born again, so there must be some kind of 'process', but if it isn't sanctification, then what is it called?" That was my prayer, and the one word answer came immediately by His still small voice to my mind - "Glorification" Wow, that was right in line with having the mind of Christ! So then I set out to see what I could find and it is beautifully set in 2 Peter 1.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe the Sanctification Process is different for each believer. We are not cookie cutter drones and every believer is different. Some may put away grievous sin right away, and others it may take years.

When I read Scripture, I see four aspects of salvation described. You can check them out in this CF thread here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Ilikecats

Active Member
Dec 27, 2019
185
70
27
Alberta
✟49,744.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I was raised believing that sanctification was a lifelong process of overcoming sin. But I never found any verses to support that. The more I studied, the more I saw that sanctification was usually "past tense" so is at the beginning as soon as we are cleansed of all sin. We are then set apart for good works. Therefore justification:sanctification are back to back.

"But I know I've grown since I was born again, so there must be some kind of 'process', but if it isn't sanctification, then what is it called?" That was my prayer, and the one word answer came immediately by His still small voice to my mind - "Glorification" Wow, that was right in line with having the mind of Christ! So then I set out to see what I could find and it is beautifully set in 2 Peter 1.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I don’t think there is a process called glorification.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30

We as believers are predestined for glory because of God.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So, in that case it's okay if I break the commandments?

Are you referring to the 613 Law of Moses that is no longer in effect anymore?
Granted, certain aspects of the Law of Moses have been repeated in the New Covenant (like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.).

You said:
The question again is not whether we should do good, or love one another. The question was whether we could do it perfectly.

The statement here is vague. Doing good and loving perfectly can mean many things to different people. Only the commands of Jesus and the dire warnings that are attached in not obeying them should be our guide. Yes, there is mercy and forgiveness (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9), but our Heavenly high priest should not be someone we just mindlessly pay lip service as we plan to do evil again with the thinking we will be saved. Otherwise there is no fear of the Lord. The Scriptures say that the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil. Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

You said:
John 8:7
So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

Are any of us righteous enough to cast the first stone at our brothers and sisters in Christ, for thier imperfections?

Paul told the Corinthians to kick out the man who was committing fornication in the church and he told them not to keep company with any brother that is a fornicator, drunkard, etc. (See: 1 Corinthians 5). Paul says do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11).

In the situation with the woman caught in the act of adultery, I believe this to be a case where Jesus is making a change of the Law (i.e. He was bringing in His New Covenant teachings that were to supercede the Old Covenant way). For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

You said:
Are any of us righteous enough to pluck the spot out of their eye?

Matthew 7:1-5 is dealing with hypocritical judgment and it is not saying that we cannot judge. In John 7:24, Jesus tells us that we can judge righteously. Paul tells the Corinthians that they should not take each other to court by the regular courts but they should judge these matters between only the brethren alone. So surely we can judge amongst ourselves. If there was no judgement of anything bad, then evil would be allowed to run ramp-ed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don’t think there is a process called glorification.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:30

We as believers are predestined for glory because of God.

"....also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:20-21).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0