You did not chose Me, I chose you.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. A person is faithless if they do not produce works of faith. In other words, a person's faith is fake if they are not truly doing the work of faith.

For example: If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

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We've already covered this. Yes faith will produce works, just as a good tree brings good fruit, but the fruit is proof of the tree being good. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.

Bible Highlighter said:

I agree that it is the motivations behind what a person believes that saves them. But a false belief or wrong doctrine will lead a person to think the wrong thing about the truth of God's Word and His plan of salvation for their lives. They will have a wrong view of "sin and salvation." So I disagree that a doctrine cannot condemn a person. Just denying the resurrection is a salvation issue according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. For the gospel that we stand upon is believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Note: Yes, I am aware that the disciples did not know about the resurrection until later, but I believe they were saved on that little knowledge they had until more truth was revealed. Once more truth was revealed, and included into God's program of salvation, it could then not be denied or rejected (with it then being a loss of salvation). It's like with the Trinity. A person can be saved without knowing about the Trinity, but in time, after they learn about the Trinity, they cannot reject such a truth. For Jesus says we must worship God in spirit and in truth.

Anyways, there are only two kingdoms. God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom.

1 Timothy 4:1 says,
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and give grace to the humble. So a believer not accepting the doctrine of godliness is a serious problem to their standing in God's kingdom.

If we tell a child that their future sin is forgiven them, and we did not get a chance to say anything more to them, they could easily think we are teaching that God's grace is a license to sin (Whether we want that to happen or not), and if they justify sin later as an adult on the account of this wrong teaching, their blood would be on our hands for teaching them a false belief that can lead them into treating God's grace into a license for sin.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 John 1:9-11).

It says he that abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God.
Does Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism sound like the doctrine of Christ?

By reading the whole chapter of 2 John 1, we see a lay out of what the doctrine of Christ is being referred to as here.

There are four key important truths mentioned in 2 John 1 (that would be included or implied in the "doctrine of Christ" mentioned in this chapter - which would be the context).

#1. We need God's grace, mercy, and peace (2 John 1:3).
#2. We are to love one another (i.e. the brethren) (2 John 1:5).
#3. To love, we need to keep Christ's commandments & walk in them (2 John 1:6).
#4. We need to believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (i.e. Believe in the Incarnation or that the Word was made flesh) (2 John 1:7).

Yes, the churches today accept grace, and they accept the Incarnation, but I think most churches do not accept the other aspect or truth in 2 John 1 in that they must keep the commandments as a part of love. Most teach today that they cannot keep God's commands and they will not stop sinning this side of Heaven.

Granted, there are people who attend these churches and have no clue as to what doctrines they even teach. They could be innocent, until they learn of the wrong teachings that they promote if the crack open their Bible and study it on their own in prayer with God. The church promoting that they could sin and still be saved could shake them to leave if they are pure of heart and they are not seeking to justify sin and evil.

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My desire to serve God is not determined by the doctrines I believe. Now the doctrines I believe may be determined by my desire tho. For example if I do not want to live as God wants me to I might choose a doctrine that suits my desire to sin but in such a case it’s not the doctrine that has determined my condemnation but my own desire to continue to indulge in sin. In the same manner if I do desire to serve God and I choose believe in eternal security and faith alone it is not from a desire to sin but from a desire to serve God and while I may be mistaken on these doctrines my salvation will still not be in jeopardy. The heart that seeks to make excuses to continue to indulge in sin will burn regardless of the doctrines he believes and the heart that seeks to serve God will also be saved regardless of the doctrines he believes so long as he does believe in the fundamental teachings of Christianity.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. A person is faithless if they do not produce works of faith. In other words, a person's faith is fake if they are not truly doing the work of faith.

For example: If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

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At any rate, it seems to me that we're having the wrong discussion, because the original question wasn't whether we will do good works or not, that's pretty much a given. The question was whether we can live a sinless life, which is entirely something else. A person may do all kind of good works, and not being saved at all. Another person may do many good works, have great faith, but have a secret life of sin. The question has to do with the extent of God's grace.

renniks said:

You misunderstand. Yes, faith will produce good works, but the works are not faith, they are fruit. If Noah, as a righteous man, had perished in the flood, would he not have been saved from eternal damnation?

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Ezekiel 18:24. Noah would have been no longer obeying God anymore and thus as a result he would have perished. His disobedience to God would not have saved him. Noah would have not cared if God destroyed him and his family. This was a direct command to Noah that was about life and death, and not a suggestion or minor thing. The wicked perished in the flood as an example to all who live ungodly thereafter (2 Peter 2:5-6). Noah also perishing and then being saved would have destroyed Peter's words in 2 Peter 2:5-6. The purpose of their destruction was a result of their wickedness. Obedience to God (getting in the Ark) is what could have saved the listener. If some of the people of that world listened to Noah and they said they believed him, but they refused to get in the Ark, they would have perished and been condemned to hell. Noah would not be any different because God is not a respecter of persons.

Bible Highlighter said:

Ezekiel 18:24. Noah would have been no longer obeying God anymore and thus as a result he would have perished. His disobedience to God would not have saved him. Noah would have not cared if God destroyed him and his family. This was a direct command to Noah that was about life and death, and not a suggestion or minor thing. The wicked perished in the flood as an example to all who live ungodly thereafter (2 Peter 2:5-6). Noah also perishing and then being saved would have destroyed Peter's words in 2 Peter 2:5-6. The purpose of their destruction was a result of their wickedness. Obedience to God (getting in the Ark) is what could have saved the listener. If some of the people of that world listened to Noah and they said they believed him, but they refused to get in the Ark, they would have perished and been condemned to hell. Noah would not be any different because God is not a respecter of persons.

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Again, you have it backwards. Look at what the scripture actually says.
“Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). That comes straight after the statement, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Genesis 6:8).

God's people are righteous when they are in a right relation with him, when they enjoy his salvation; God's righteousness is, for Paul, God's saving activity in and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his Son. It is activity that is directly in line with the saving activity of God in the Old Testament.
So, was it Noah's righteousness that saved him or his works?

renniks said:

Again, you have it backwards. Look at what the scripture actually says.
“Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). That comes straight after the statement, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Genesis 6:8).

God's people are righteous when they are in a right relation with him, when they enjoy his salvation; God's righteousness is, for Paul, God's saving activity in and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his Son. It is activity that is directly in line with the saving activity of God in the Old Testament.
So, was it Noah's righteousness that saved him or his works?

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Notice what Peter said in Acts 10:34-35

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

renniks said:

Again, you have it backwards. Look at what the scripture actually says.
“Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). That comes straight after the statement, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Genesis 6:8).

God's people are righteous when they are in a right relation with him, when they enjoy his salvation; God's righteousness is, for Paul, God's saving activity in and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his Son. It is activity that is directly in line with the saving activity of God in the Old Testament.
So, was it Noah's righteousness that saved him or his works?

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Noah was the offspring from generations of righteous men. Enoch his grandfather and Methuselah his father were also righteous men. Noah was raised by these men to walk with God and live a righteous life since birth.

Sorry I forgot about Lamech lol. Enoch was Noah’s great grandfather and Methuselah was his grandfather and Lamech was his father.

CharismaticLady said:

A person who constantly goes back and forth is under the law. They know the law, but have no power to keep it. Unfortunately, this describes many in the Church. It describes me for the first 30 years of my life going to church. We must be born again. What you just described is a person who has never been born again. They are merely a Christian in name only. They do not have the supernatural power of the Spirit.

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For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace. Galations 5:4

renniks said:

In verse 22, James used the Greek word eteleiōthē to explain good works as the "completion," or the natural end result, of saving faith. James is urgently making the case that all those who are saved through faith by God's grace will participate in good works.
James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation. This includes his quote in verse 23 that Abraham was counted as righteous for believing God.
Context is the key to all Bible study, and especially for resolving apparent contradictions. In Paul's writings, it is clear he is describing "justification" in the sense of salvation: being declared righteous by God. James, according to this context, is referring to "justification" in the sense of proof for human beings. Faith saves, says James, but "saving faith" cannot be a mere intellectual opinion, which produces no resulting actions.
Yes, the Spirit will produce results, but those results are not what saves.

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First, nobody truly knows Biblical Greek like they do English. Nobody today has grown up during Bible times knowing that language intimately to know the nuances of that language. Greek scholars disagree with each other. So who is right? We are guessing at best, and we have to take it by faith in what the scholar says is true, instead of just reading and believing our Bible in the plain English. Granted, this is not to say that we cannot make an educated guess and be right, but we cannot have 100% assurance that we know a dead language. There is not an Apostle Paul around to correct us on our Greek.

The problem I see is that when folks do not like what their Bible says in the English, they look to the original languages to try and re-write the Bible to their liking or in order to fit their belief. They act like they know Biblical Greek, when in reality nobody knows such a language like some in the early church did. From my perspective, sometimes when a person appeals to the Greek, they make it appear like they are trying to make the original languages say something different than the English because they don't like what it says in the English. I sure hope this is not what you are suggesting here, my friend.

Second, James 2:24 says a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Notice the word "justified" above that is bolded in red. The word "justified" is only used once. Most Christians will agree that being "justified by faith" deals with salvation. I agree that we are justified by faith, too. But James is using the same word "justified" in relation to make a point about both "works," and "faith." Eternal Security proponents or Belief Alone Proponents would have probably loved it if the word "justified" appeared two times in this sentence (once for works, and once for faith). For they think that the justification of works is done exclusively before men alone and not God in this verse. Yet, the problem is that the word "justified" is used to refer to "faith," too.

Think. One cannot be justified by faith before men. Our faith is not done exclusively before men. We do not justify our faith before just men, but only before God.

Also, the context of James 2 as a whole is dealing with a lack of love towards the poor brethren. James is essentially saying, "Can this kind of faith save them before God?"


James is essentially saying.... "no." Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Are we saved before men by our faith? No.
We are saved by our faith before God.

Is there more confirmation of this truth in Scripture?
Well, James is saying that we cannot show favoritism towards the rich brethren and show no favor to the poor brethren because it would not be loving our brother. The apostle John essentially says that we cannot refuse to love the brethren and be of God (1 John 3:10).

Getting back to the works issue:
Matthew 5:16 says we glorify God by our works before men. So works are done before God and man. We glorify God by our works towards men. We cannot hide our works before God as we do them before men. In fact, the servant who was faithful over little was told to enter into the joy of their Lord (Matthew 25:21), and yet the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. John 15:1-10 makes it clear that if we as the branches are not abiding in Christ and bearing fruit, we will be cut down and thrown into the fire. The fire is hell and we are the branches. Matthew 13:41-42 says that Christ will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (Christ's kingdom) all who offend (make others to sin), and who work iniquity (lawlessness) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Over, and over, and over again, the Bible is hitting us over the heads in warning us to not sin as believer or or to be unfruitful, or we will be destroyed. God cannot agree with our justification of sin and evil because He is a holy, righteous, and good God.

Also, the beginning of James 2 starts off by saying:

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." (James 2:1).

This is faith towards Jesus Christ (i.e. faith towards GOD because Jesus is GOD) and this is not having faith towards men in showing men our faith and works apart from God. GOD is always included in our faith towards Jesus. Our faith is ultimately in GOD and it is not to just show men. But alas, the Eternal Security proponent or Belief Alone Proponent must come up with something (even if their explanation does not fit exactly within Scripture).

CharismaticLady said:

A trespass is a sin you are not even aware you've done, like hurting someone's feelings.

My mind is a hundred miles away and I pass an old friend on the street and don't even acknowledge knowing them. Her feelings are hurt and she starts avoiding speaking to me. At this point her trespass is not forgiven. Getting hurt or getting angry is not a sin; it is when you don't forgive immediately that you let a root of bitterness be planted. Paul says "Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger." In other words, forgive easily.

Both people committed trespasses. Granted mine is not even known, but I still caused her pain. I notice she has stopped speaking to me and inquire why? That's when I find out what happened. I go to that person and explain that I didn't even see her, and hopefully we are reconciled. I am forgiven by God. Or I don't forgive her for her presumption and we are not reconciled. My trespass is not forgiven. When both forgive each other, the slate is clean.

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If you don't even notice someone, then I fail to see how any sin has been committed?

renniks said:

For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace. Galations 5:4

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Skip up two verses and you will read that this is in reference to the Law of Moses.
Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the 613 laws of Moses and it is not a command that was given to us by Jesus and His followers as a part of the New Covenant.

In other words, Paul was referring to them in trying to be saved by the OLD Law (that has been fulfilled by Christ on the cross). Paul is not referring to New Covenant Laws. For even believing in Jesus is a Law or commandment (See 1 John 3:23). But 1 John 3:23 would be New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. Therein lies the difference, my friend.

renniks said:

In verse 22, James used the Greek word eteleiōthē to explain good works as the "completion," or the natural end result, of saving faith. James is urgently making the case that all those who are saved through faith by God's grace will participate in good works.
James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation. This includes his quote in verse 23 that Abraham was counted as righteous for believing God.
Context is the key to all Bible study, and especially for resolving apparent contradictions. In Paul's writings, it is clear he is describing "justification" in the sense of salvation: being declared righteous by God. James, according to this context, is referring to "justification" in the sense of proof for human beings. Faith saves, says James, but "saving faith" cannot be a mere intellectual opinion, which produces no resulting actions.
Yes, the Spirit will produce results, but those results are not what saves.

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Abraham was said to be justified by works before God by offering Isaac upon the altar. Yet, no men besides Isaac were present. Isaac was already a believer under Abraham's care and instruction. In that story God rewarded Abraham's obedience to the faith. Again, works before men ultimately glorify God the Father (Matthew 5:16). Our good works are ultimately of the Lord working through us (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5). This is why a believer can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work (Titus 1:16). A person can deny God in the sense that they are not truly believing in God properly to have GOD abide on the inside of them (Whereby He will do the good work).

Bible Highlighter said:

But alas, the Eternal Security proponent or Belief Alone Proponent must come up with something (even if their explanation does not fit exactly within Scripture).

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I am neither of these. But when I balance all of scripture together, I find that faith produces works, but works don't produce salvation. And depending on works for salvation is dangerous because it can lead to false religion.

CharismaticLady said:

That is actually talking about being legalistic about the outward parts of the Old Law, such as keeping days, avoiding certain foods and circumcision. The Judaizers were telling the Galatians they couldn't be saved without all these things. They didn't understand the different covenants, and that the power of grace is the New Covenant. The Spirit not only freed us from the Law, it frees us from committing willful sins of lawlessness.

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Some have just traded one law for another. In some Churches I have attended, women wearing pants is a sin. Men wearing short sleeves was a sin. Listening to certain music was a sin. I could go on and on. Legalism is not just about the old Jewish law.

CharismaticLady said:

Their feelings are still hurt, and you were the cause. You unwittingly hurt someone's feelings. That is what a trespass is. You don't have your 'wits' about you. We are not all knowing as God is.

Leviticus 5:15 If any one commit a trespass, and sin unwittingly, unintentionally, out of ignorance, improperly, offensively, unknowingly

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Okay... if I know about it I might apologize, but find no need to confess it to God. But what about the other 50 times a week when I did it and never found out? We are not under levitical law. If you're going to quote from Leviticus, I assume you're keeping all of the old covenant laws?